EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 4678
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26468 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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baal
10659 Posts
On December 24 2024 19:02 Gorsameth wrote: what is there to elaborate? The deal with the Taliban to fully withdraw by May 2001 was signed in Feb 2000. Trump was President at the time. He signed a deal with the Taliban to withdraw. Biden simply honoured a deal America had signed before he became President. The deal required that the Taliban did many things wich they did not, if Biden wanted he could easily walk back and reject the deal but he decided not to. Also I dont think most ppl have a problem about leaving Afghanistan, (not like many ppl want forever wars with random countries), the issue is how the US withdrew, leaving hundreds of millions in military equipment so that the Taliban can take them into their arsenal and basically running away while the Taliban marched in the city, amazing display of incompetence. | ||
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baal
10659 Posts
On December 24 2024 19:36 WombaT wrote: What’s the link? Yes we’re watching in real time a fringe group grow substantially that’s entirely immune to actual evidence persuading them otherwise. Between neurology and left/right wing ideologies? you can google it up plenty of different studies of many kinds, psychological traits like high disgust and conscientousness has a high correlation with right wing beliefs, or neurological responses to certain scenarios and also statistical correlations with genetics, wich is a bit redundant with psychological trait since they are also genetically inherited. Most people are immune to evidence, and if you are caugh lying to the public then you can't complain that they won't believe in the evidence you present them next time. | ||
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baal
10659 Posts
On December 24 2024 20:52 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Unfortunately, with Trump in charge again and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. as secretary of Department of Health and Human Services, being anti-vaccine is going to become a core component of the Republican identity. It was starting during the end of Trump's term / throughout Biden's term, where the MAGA purity test included the rejection of effective medicine in favor of any fake treatment peddled by Trump, but now it's likely to become another permanent fixture under the conservative anti-science banner. Yes it is now a core right wing anti-science point, it used to be a left wing position from the vegan-detox types and it was going to be reinforced when the democrats were saying they were not going to take the "trump vaccine" but it was rolled out under Biden so now republicans are the antivaxxer idiots, no side has a functioning mind of their own they just pick a side as if it was a sports team and import their belief system. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22165 Posts
On December 25 2024 21:03 baal wrote: leaving behind the equipment is standard procedure, its cheaper to build new stuff then to ship it back.The deal required that the Taliban did many things wich they did not, if Biden wanted he could easily walk back and reject the deal but he decided not to. Also I dont think most ppl have a problem about leaving Afghanistan, (not like many ppl want forever wars with random countries), the issue is how the US withdrew, leaving hundreds of millions in military equipment so that the Taliban can take them into their arsenal and basically running away while the Taliban marched in the city, amazing display of incompetence. The right only made a big deal out of it because it was a Democrat in charge. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45386 Posts
On December 25 2024 21:17 baal wrote: Yes it is now a core right wing anti-science point, it used to be a left wing position from the vegan-detox types and it was going to be reinforced when the democrats were saying they were not going to take the "trump vaccine" but it was rolled out under Biden so now republicans are the antivaxxer idiots, no side has a functioning mind of their own they just pick a side as if it was a sports team and import their belief system. This isn't a both-sides-did-it issue. The occasional anti-vax / obsessed with only natural healing / chakra / crystals moron on the left was part of a minute fringe cult, and not representative of any significant portion of Democrats, liberals, or progressives. On the other hand, this is an extremely large conspiracy for the Republican party, from leadership all the way down to a huge percentage of conservative voters. Maybe pre-covid, the line may have been blurred... but post-covid, Republicans are the clear champions of anti-vax propaganda and sentiment, and Democrats continue to be mostly pro-science and pro-medicine. And that's translated to way fewer Republicans than Democrats being vaccinated. This isn't particularly new either; see the partisan splits on vaccines, evolution, big bang cosmology, climate change, sex education, pretty much everything related to sociology and gender studies, etc. Democrats are far from perfect, but Republicans seem to consistently be less informed. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26468 Posts
On December 25 2024 21:10 baal wrote: Between neurology and left/right wing ideologies? you can google it up plenty of different studies of many kinds, psychological traits like high disgust and conscientousness has a high correlation with right wing beliefs, or neurological responses to certain scenarios and also statistical correlations with genetics, wich is a bit redundant with psychological trait since they are also genetically inherited. Most people are immune to evidence, and if you are caugh lying to the public then you can't complain that they won't believe in the evidence you present them next time. If folks are largely immune to evidence then it doesn’t really matter whether you’re lying or not though no? | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9794 Posts
On December 25 2024 00:25 Sadist wrote: Im left wing and Im all for the death penalty in cases where the person 100% did it. Mass shooters, Dylan Roof for example, dont belong on this planet. The cops should have never even taken him into custody and just ended it there. There is no legal standard that differentiates between 'guilty and 100% did it' and 'guilty and 99% did it' which is why this would never work. | ||
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Sadist
United States7327 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
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baal
10659 Posts
On December 25 2024 21:26 Gorsameth wrote: leaving behind the equipment is standard procedure, its cheaper to build new stuff then to ship it back. The right only made a big deal out of it because it was a Democrat in charge. It costs around 10M to build a Blackhawk helicopter, of course taking it home is more costly LMAO. Theres also the slight issue of arming an army of islamist radicals who want nothing more than to see your destruction. | ||
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baal
10659 Posts
On December 26 2024 00:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: This isn't a both-sides-did-it issue. The occasional anti-vax / obsessed with only natural healing / chakra / crystals moron on the left was part of a minute fringe cult, and not representative of any significant portion of Democrats, liberals, or progressives. On the other hand, this is an extremely large conspiracy for the Republican party, from leadership all the way down to a huge percentage of conservative voters. Maybe pre-covid, the line may have been blurred... but post-covid, Republicans are the clear champions of anti-vax propaganda and sentiment, and Democrats continue to be mostly pro-science and pro-medicine. And that's translated to way fewer Republicans than Democrats being vaccinated. This isn't particularly new either; see the partisan splits on vaccines, evolution, big bang cosmology, climate change, sex education, pretty much everything related to sociology and gender studies, etc. Democrats are far from perfect, but Republicans seem to consistently be less informed. Both parties have a lot of antiscience stances, the left are based on anti-profit and pro-environmental positions, while the right are based on anti-government or religious positions. Common left wing antiscience positions are anti-hallopathy, anti-GMO, anti-nuclear energy, anti-agricultural tech. Common right wing antiscience positions are Evolution skepticism, climate change, and now Covid vax/mask resistence. The only reason now conservatives are the antivaxxers are that the vaccine was rolled out under democrat leadership, when Trump was talking about many democrat politicians openly said they weren't going to take it, Kamala Harris included, no party is significantly more or less for science, its just team sports> Social sciences aren't real science, disagreeing that there are x numer of genders isn't an anti-science position and equating that to vaccination just makes me think you are not a serious person. | ||
KwarK
United States43757 Posts
On December 26 2024 12:21 baal wrote: It costs around 10M to build a Blackhawk helicopter, of course taking it home is more costly LMAO. Theres also the slight issue of arming an army of islamist radicals who want nothing more than to see your destruction. The equipment was handed over to the ANA per Trump’s desk but the ANA didn’t really exist. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18246 Posts
On December 26 2024 06:07 Sadist wrote: Im all for adding additional categories to laws to differentiate things better. What does that mean? Right now, the jury already has to be convinced, beyond reasonable doubt, that the accused is guilty in order to convict them. And yet, sometimes they get it wrong. What would be your further standard for the death sentence? Beyond *any* doubt? But that's impossible in 99.9999% of cases. So you'd be maintaining a death sentence and all its paraphernalia to execute it, for cases that basically never occur. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45386 Posts
On December 26 2024 12:51 baal wrote: Both parties have a lot of antiscience stances, the left are based on anti-profit and pro-environmental positions, while the right are based on anti-government or religious positions. Common left wing antiscience positions are anti-hallopathy, anti-GMO, anti-nuclear energy, anti-agricultural tech. Common right wing antiscience positions are Evolution skepticism, climate change, and now Covid vax/mask resistence. The only reason now conservatives are the antivaxxers are that the vaccine was rolled out under democrat leadership, when Trump was talking about many democrat politicians openly said they weren't going to take it, Kamala Harris included, no party is significantly more or less for science, its just team sports> Social sciences aren't real science, disagreeing that there are x numer of genders isn't an anti-science position and equating that to vaccination just makes me think you are not a serious person. 1. What is "anti-hallopathy" and what evidence do you have that the left is against "hallopathy"? Google gives me zero results for those words. 2. What evidence do you have that being anti-nuclear is disproportionately a left-wing position? 3. "The only reason now conservatives are the antivaxxers are that the vaccine was rolled out under democrat leadership" This is incorrect. Operation Warp Speed was under Trump, not Biden. And, regardless, the Democrats were the ones disproportionately taking the vaccine, not avoiding it. The Republicans were the ones more likely to avoid it, and still are. 4. "no party is significantly more or less for science" Still wrong, as cited earlier. 5. "Social sciences aren't real science" While social sciences are not the same as natural sciences, Republicans lag behind in understanding both of those categories. If you don’t like certain branches of science associated with studying human behavior, society, and culture, then that's fine, but your dismissiveness doesn't mean that Republicans are as up-to-date on those topics as Democrats. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
Also, the right-wing has its own fair share of other social sciences. They especially like "race science". | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28779 Posts
I'll also grant that anti-nuclear used to be a leftist position, as the belief was (and still is) that we should rather focus on less consumption. And if you look at the 9 political parties with parliamentary representation in Norway then two of the three parties opposed to nuclear power in Norway are the two most left-wing parties, and two of the three parties that are positive (the rest answer 'uncertain') are the two most right-wing parties we have. Key point though is that the 'anti-nuclear' parties aren't categorically opposed, want to invest more into research into thorium, want to encourage moŕe nuclear in countries where it already exists, and mostly oppose it on the grounds that norway is already self-sufficient with hydro power -the nuclear we could end up producing a decade from now would be produced with the goal of selling it to Europe. Further - the opinion on nuclear power has changed a lot over the past two decades, and younger Norwegian leftists are in my experience very positive, while some older ones still struggle with chernobyl trauma. So I'll agree with baal that this is an area where leftists have been less up to date with the science, also agree with anti-gmo, but also state that these opinions aren't as rigidly or stupidly held as for example anti-evolution or anti climate change views held and maintained by much of the right wing. While also giving my standard addendum that i think the left right dichotomy is quickly losing its descriptive purpose. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
E.g. regarding climate change, left-wingers tend to reject nuclear power as the stopgap part of a broader solution, whereas right-wingers tend to reject the finding that CG is man-made. Gender studies are mostly embraced by left-wingers, whereas right-wingers stand alone in their resistance. Conversion therapy (a right-wing gender pseudo-science) is also an interesting example that right-wingers embrace because they don't care about scientific validity to begin with and they also reject sexual liberation. Meanwhile left-wingers reject CT because science-based policy shouldn't obstruct social progress. Conversion therapy is an oppressive rather than liberating application, so even if it were scientifically valid (which it certainly isn't), left-wingers would reject it regardless. This is how the pro-science and anti-science divide can often be understood. Not just policies are different between the camps, also the way ideology influences policy is very different. The fundamentals of the scientific method take a beating by right-wingers, while left-wingers embrace scientific experimentation and findings but sometimes obstruct policy application based on progressivist attitudes. In both instances fear is the driving force, but it's a fear of different things. PS: this is also why both left and right embrace homeopathy. It's pseudo-science either way, but it doesn't stand in the way of social progress on the left and it plays into the belief in miracles on the right. For the people who want to read up on this: https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2017/09/18/left-right-share-anti-science-instincts-rooted-fears-ideological-misuse/ | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45386 Posts
On December 26 2024 21:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: Hallopathy=allopathy. I think this was true in the past (that leftists were more likely to be dismissive) but i think that has changed with the realignment of the political landscape. Thanks for the clarification! I look forward to hearing baal's arguments for why he believes that the left is disproportionately against allopathy. | ||
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