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Restaurants are notorious for their low profit margins and high business failure rates. Minimum wage hikes always fall upon the restaurant industry the hardest.
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On July 03 2018 11:56 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 10:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 10:16 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 10:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 10:02 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 09:31 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 03 2018 09:16 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 09:13 GreenHorizons wrote:
I like a federal jobs guarantee more than a minimum wage, but I don't trust our elected officials not to turn it into conscripted labor.
As for minimum wage it doesn't cause businesses to close, but if it does, good. The business shouldn't exist anyway. Yeah who wants those jobs to exist...... A full time or near-to-it job that does not make enough to pay rent, in a country with next to no safety net, only serves to slightly slow down rot and put a bandaid over a still festering wound. Now you make it to 40 off of dead-end labour rather than 37. Fucking marvelous. If the jobs that weren't enough didn't exist at all and the population of the US wasn't so politically complacent / understood how bullshit the bootstrap rhetoric was, people might actually press their representatives to start making serious change. And maybe not elect people actively sabotaging the minimal safety nets that do exist. Not directed at you specifically, but I live in South Africa and I have a family member who can get proper, full-time psychiatric care without emptying the collective bank. A job that can keep you alive while sharing a 1-room apartment between two people means nothing when you get sick. It means nothing if you want a child. It means nothing if literally anything goes wrong, which it will. The situation is the US is seriously fucked, and having a few more minimum wage jobs where people get to keep an extra 10% of nothing they're paid isn't gonna improve the situation in a meaningful way, if at all. A lot of the restaurant jobs that were lost paid quite well.Here people tip at least 15% an up to 25% of the tab. The server then keeps a large % of those tips. But also "tips" out to the rest of the staff. The servers makes minimum wage the rest of the staff typically maker more. It was not uncommon for a server to make 30-50 dollars a hour. These are hard incomes for people to replace. Sooo businesses where their servers were making ~$30-$50/hr shut down because it had to pay them a minimum wage of ~$13-15/hr? You don't see the absurdity in that? Because tipping goes directly to the employees not to the owner. So the owners wage cost went up 50% and the servers wages went up 5%. I get for some reason you want to fight with me about everything. But this is not complicated. lol I don't want to fight, I was wondering if you realized how silly it was. So people between food and tip are paying their servers $30-50/hr but if instead it is all for the food the owner can't possibly afford $15/hr. So the customers pay the same, the workers earn less, and somehow it's owner who is getting screwed by either collecting absurd profit or shutting down because somehow they can't turn $30-50 that was going to their employee to at least $15. Surely the problem is the wage and not greedy incompetent ownership... lol Its funny until our recent conversations I really didn't understand how little you knew about topics but were willing to talk like and expert. I feel like I need question everything you write and double check because you have basically no credibility. So first point, not all restaurants make absurd profits. Many people start them with their life savings and finance the rest in debt. These leads to restaurants being one of the riskiest businesses to start. Clientele can be very fickle, one back experience and often they don't come back. People here and most places in NA tip based a % of price and that % is pretty set culturally in each area. So when you raise the price if your competitors don't your customers don't simply go while this would be the same if I tipped 12% instead of 15% over there so I'll just keep coming. Also, is it your thought that a business owner would write in the menu, due to the minimum wage increase I've been forced to increase prices. To keep inline with what you paid before please tip 5% less then you normally would? Yes some restaurant owners do fantastic. And guess what this didn't hurt them. But many of the ones that were just getting by did shut down. If you would like please travel down and see me and I can take you to the empty spots. Not every business owner is a multimillionaire raking in cash hand over first. A lot are barely getting by. Others are trying to barely get by until they can pay their debt off at which point they hope to do well. There needs to be an incentive of profit to exist to encourage people to start businesses which in turn give jobs to others. If not why would you?
I've realized you have a hard time understanding arguments. My point was that your whole argument was ridiculous.
The minimum wage raise doesn't cause businesses to shut down, being bad businesses does (in addition to many other factors).
Profit is far from the only motive for people to do things including starting businesses, didn't you try to tell me you were on the left?
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On July 03 2018 10:28 NewSunshine wrote:
I like that we're no longer arguing whether Trump is doing the awful thing that hallmarks fascists and dictators, and instead arguing over whether Trump's anti-press rhetoric makes him directly culpable for the recent attack. Folks like Danglars can play dumb and insist they don't see the connection between his open hostility and acts of violence, but to me that rather goes whoosh and misses the point, which remains uncontested.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/QgqO2Mg.jpg)
What connection? Huehuehue.
Also, "enemy of the people".
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 03 2018 12:49 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 12:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 11:56 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 10:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 10:16 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 10:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 10:02 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 09:31 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On July 03 2018 09:16 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 09:13 GreenHorizons wrote:
I like a federal jobs guarantee more than a minimum wage, but I don't trust our elected officials not to turn it into conscripted labor.
As for minimum wage it doesn't cause businesses to close, but if it does, good. The business shouldn't exist anyway. Yeah who wants those jobs to exist...... A full time or near-to-it job that does not make enough to pay rent, in a country with next to no safety net, only serves to slightly slow down rot and put a bandaid over a still festering wound. Now you make it to 40 off of dead-end labour rather than 37. Fucking marvelous. If the jobs that weren't enough didn't exist at all and the population of the US wasn't so politically complacent / understood how bullshit the bootstrap rhetoric was, people might actually press their representatives to start making serious change. And maybe not elect people actively sabotaging the minimal safety nets that do exist. Not directed at you specifically, but I live in South Africa and I have a family member who can get proper, full-time psychiatric care without emptying the collective bank. A job that can keep you alive while sharing a 1-room apartment between two people means nothing when you get sick. It means nothing if you want a child. It means nothing if literally anything goes wrong, which it will. The situation is the US is seriously fucked, and having a few more minimum wage jobs where people get to keep an extra 10% of nothing they're paid isn't gonna improve the situation in a meaningful way, if at all. A lot of the restaurant jobs that were lost paid quite well.Here people tip at least 15% an up to 25% of the tab. The server then keeps a large % of those tips. But also "tips" out to the rest of the staff. The servers makes minimum wage the rest of the staff typically maker more. It was not uncommon for a server to make 30-50 dollars a hour. These are hard incomes for people to replace. Sooo businesses where their servers were making ~$30-$50/hr shut down because it had to pay them a minimum wage of ~$13-15/hr? You don't see the absurdity in that? Because tipping goes directly to the employees not to the owner. So the owners wage cost went up 50% and the servers wages went up 5%. I get for some reason you want to fight with me about everything. But this is not complicated. lol I don't want to fight, I was wondering if you realized how silly it was. So people between food and tip are paying their servers $30-50/hr but if instead it is all for the food the owner can't possibly afford $15/hr. So the customers pay the same, the workers earn less, and somehow it's owner who is getting screwed by either collecting absurd profit or shutting down because somehow they can't turn $30-50 that was going to their employee to at least $15. Surely the problem is the wage and not greedy incompetent ownership... lol Its funny until our recent conversations I really didn't understand how little you knew about topics but were willing to talk like and expert. I feel like I need question everything you write and double check because you have basically no credibility. So first point, not all restaurants make absurd profits. Many people start them with their life savings and finance the rest in debt. These leads to restaurants being one of the riskiest businesses to start. Clientele can be very fickle, one back experience and often they don't come back. People here and most places in NA tip based a % of price and that % is pretty set culturally in each area. So when you raise the price if your competitors don't your customers don't simply go while this would be the same if I tipped 12% instead of 15% over there so I'll just keep coming. Also, is it your thought that a business owner would write in the menu, due to the minimum wage increase I've been forced to increase prices. To keep inline with what you paid before please tip 5% less then you normally would? Yes some restaurant owners do fantastic. And guess what this didn't hurt them. But many of the ones that were just getting by did shut down. If you would like please travel down and see me and I can take you to the empty spots. Not every business owner is a multimillionaire raking in cash hand over first. A lot are barely getting by. Others are trying to barely get by until they can pay their debt off at which point they hope to do well. There needs to be an incentive of profit to exist to encourage people to start businesses which in turn give jobs to others. If not why would you? I've realized you have a hard time understanding arguments. My point was that your whole argument was ridiculous. The minimum wage raise doesn't cause businesses to shut down, being bad businesses does (in addition to many other factors). Profit is far from the only motive for people to do things including starting businesses, didn't you try to tell me you were on the left? Wanting to find a different way to fund the working poor then minimum wage does not make some one right wing, but whatever you are, I am surely not. I don't put myself in either category because I don't completely agree with either side. For example, I cannot blindly say someone like Maduro is great, when he is clearly terrible, simply because he is left wing. I try to look at each issue on its merits and come up with a position on it. I also think there are a lot of conventional things done that don't work out as planned. I could give you many examples from my current work within government if you would like but if it didn't scream communism I'm sure you wouldn't agree, no mater the logic. A lot of well meaning and good sounding arguments do not work out well or have unintended consequences. Much like how I'm sure blizzard had good reasons and thoughts for different buffs and nerfs they did with their various games but they didn't always work out well. Raising costs does cause SOME businesses to shut down, which does cause less jobs. I think your understanding of business, how they are run and how to run them is very low based on your other statements. I don't find a "only the super profitable businesses should exist" theory very left wing. I'm not sure how this works in your mind we only have businesses operate that make huge profits but then we force upon them also super high minimum wage so we have few but high paying jobs? How do you think that would effect inflation? I'll give you a hint go back a few pages and look at inflation in Venezuela. Ideally what I would want and what a lot of left leaning people would want is lots of jobs for everyone of different skills, knowledge and education levels. A livable take home wage that they can safely and healthy raise a family on. If you think minimum wage raising hurt CEO's and the ultra rich you are crazy. This does nothing to the top it pinches the middle and removes jobs from the low. There is some benefit to some but I don't, and many from all parts of the political spectrum, do not think it is the best way. It is a simple way though, and one that scores well with uninformed voters. Which is probably why you love it! But more likely you don't have a horse in the race you just butted in to talk down to me because it makes you feel good for some reason.
lol man.
The reason I questioned you being on the left is your suggestion that people's sole motivation is profit. I never said "Maduro is great" but that's cool too.
Of course rising costs cause some businesses to close. My argument wasn't incredibly dense in text or concept. It's the same one FDR made when he created the minimum wage.
Do your thing though;.
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In lighter news, Alex Jones and Roger Stone have joined forces to accuse one of the judges on Trump's short list of covering up a murder for Hillary Clinton.
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On July 03 2018 12:49 JimmiC wrote:
I don't find a "only the super profitable businesses should exist" theory very left wing. I'm not sure how this works in your mind we only have businesses operate that make huge profits but then we force upon them also super high minimum wage so we have few but high paying jobs? How do you think that would effect inflation? I'll give you a hint go back a few pages and look at inflation in Venezuela.
Agree fully with the first sentence. However, rising wages are much less important in aggregate demand than availability of real resources. If you have hundreds of people camping a Best Buy for a new xbox console, but they only have 75, it does not matter how much money the people have that are waiting in line or how much they have been "printed". Now you have people in the front who might sell theirs for twice the price etc.
There are also many different types of inflation. Most are normal and beneficial. What you are referring to is hyperinflation, which comes when too many dollars are chasing too few goods and services.
As Alan Greenspan explained to Paul Ryan.
+ Show Spoiler +
He asks about solvency for Social Security, but it could be universal healthcare, student debt relief, whatever...
From the St Louis Federal Reserve:
"As the sole manufacturer of dollars, whose debt is denominated in dollars, the U.S. government can never become insolvent, i.e., unable to pay its bills. In this sense, the government is not dependent on credit markets to remain operational. Moreover, there will always be a market for U.S. government debt at home because the U.S. government has the only means of creating risk-free dollar-denominated assets (by virtue of never facing insolvency and paying interest rates over the inflation rate, e.g., TIPS—Treasury Inflation-Protected Securities)."
Lastly, GH is somewhat correct about Venezuela's woe's stemming from US imperialism etc, but let's also note that they export low value crude oil and import high value-added gasoline, kerosene, etc. They are not energy independent.
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On July 03 2018 13:13 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 13:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 12:49 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 12:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 11:56 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 10:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 10:16 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 10:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 10:02 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 09:31 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
[quote]
A full time or near-to-it job that does not make enough to pay rent, in a country with next to no safety net, only serves to slightly slow down rot and put a bandaid over a still festering wound. Now you make it to 40 off of dead-end labour rather than 37. Fucking marvelous. If the jobs that weren't enough didn't exist at all and the population of the US wasn't so politically complacent / understood how bullshit the bootstrap rhetoric was, people might actually press their representatives to start making serious change.
And maybe not elect people actively sabotaging the minimal safety nets that do exist.
Not directed at you specifically, but I live in South Africa and I have a family member who can get proper, full-time psychiatric care without emptying the collective bank. A job that can keep you alive while sharing a 1-room apartment between two people means nothing when you get sick. It means nothing if you want a child. It means nothing if literally anything goes wrong, which it will. The situation is the US is seriously fucked, and having a few more minimum wage jobs where people get to keep an extra 10% of nothing they're paid isn't gonna improve the situation in a meaningful way, if at all.
A lot of the restaurant jobs that were lost paid quite well.Here people tip at least 15% an up to 25% of the tab. The server then keeps a large % of those tips. But also "tips" out to the rest of the staff. The servers makes minimum wage the rest of the staff typically maker more. It was not uncommon for a server to make 30-50 dollars a hour. These are hard incomes for people to replace. Sooo businesses where their servers were making ~$30-$50/hr shut down because it had to pay them a minimum wage of ~$13-15/hr? You don't see the absurdity in that? Because tipping goes directly to the employees not to the owner. So the owners wage cost went up 50% and the servers wages went up 5%. I get for some reason you want to fight with me about everything. But this is not complicated. lol I don't want to fight, I was wondering if you realized how silly it was. So people between food and tip are paying their servers $30-50/hr but if instead it is all for the food the owner can't possibly afford $15/hr. So the customers pay the same, the workers earn less, and somehow it's owner who is getting screwed by either collecting absurd profit or shutting down because somehow they can't turn $30-50 that was going to their employee to at least $15. Surely the problem is the wage and not greedy incompetent ownership... lol Its funny until our recent conversations I really didn't understand how little you knew about topics but were willing to talk like and expert. I feel like I need question everything you write and double check because you have basically no credibility. So first point, not all restaurants make absurd profits. Many people start them with their life savings and finance the rest in debt. These leads to restaurants being one of the riskiest businesses to start. Clientele can be very fickle, one back experience and often they don't come back. People here and most places in NA tip based a % of price and that % is pretty set culturally in each area. So when you raise the price if your competitors don't your customers don't simply go while this would be the same if I tipped 12% instead of 15% over there so I'll just keep coming. Also, is it your thought that a business owner would write in the menu, due to the minimum wage increase I've been forced to increase prices. To keep inline with what you paid before please tip 5% less then you normally would? Yes some restaurant owners do fantastic. And guess what this didn't hurt them. But many of the ones that were just getting by did shut down. If you would like please travel down and see me and I can take you to the empty spots. Not every business owner is a multimillionaire raking in cash hand over first. A lot are barely getting by. Others are trying to barely get by until they can pay their debt off at which point they hope to do well. There needs to be an incentive of profit to exist to encourage people to start businesses which in turn give jobs to others. If not why would you? I've realized you have a hard time understanding arguments. My point was that your whole argument was ridiculous. The minimum wage raise doesn't cause businesses to shut down, being bad businesses does (in addition to many other factors). Profit is far from the only motive for people to do things including starting businesses, didn't you try to tell me you were on the left? Wanting to find a different way to fund the working poor then minimum wage does not make some one right wing, but whatever you are, I am surely not. I don't put myself in either category because I don't completely agree with either side. For example, I cannot blindly say someone like Maduro is great, when he is clearly terrible, simply because he is left wing. I try to look at each issue on its merits and come up with a position on it. I also think there are a lot of conventional things done that don't work out as planned. I could give you many examples from my current work within government if you would like but if it didn't scream communism I'm sure you wouldn't agree, no mater the logic. A lot of well meaning and good sounding arguments do not work out well or have unintended consequences. Much like how I'm sure blizzard had good reasons and thoughts for different buffs and nerfs they did with their various games but they didn't always work out well. Raising costs does cause SOME businesses to shut down, which does cause less jobs. I think your understanding of business, how they are run and how to run them is very low based on your other statements. I don't find a "only the super profitable businesses should exist" theory very left wing. I'm not sure how this works in your mind we only have businesses operate that make huge profits but then we force upon them also super high minimum wage so we have few but high paying jobs? How do you think that would effect inflation? I'll give you a hint go back a few pages and look at inflation in Venezuela. Ideally what I would want and what a lot of left leaning people would want is lots of jobs for everyone of different skills, knowledge and education levels. A livable take home wage that they can safely and healthy raise a family on. If you think minimum wage raising hurt CEO's and the ultra rich you are crazy. This does nothing to the top it pinches the middle and removes jobs from the low. There is some benefit to some but I don't, and many from all parts of the political spectrum, do not think it is the best way. It is a simple way though, and one that scores well with uninformed voters. Which is probably why you love it! But more likely you don't have a horse in the race you just butted in to talk down to me because it makes you feel good for some reason. lol man. The reason I questioned you being on the left is your suggestion that people's sole motivation is profit. I never said "Maduro is great" but that's cool too. Of course rising costs cause some businesses to close. My argument wasn't incredibly dense in text or concept. It's the same one FDR made when he created the minimum wage. Do your thing though;. Much like this, you didn't have an argument. You interjected yourself into a conversation with a snide comment to make yourself feel superior. The question with some back ground info was about a better way to to fund the working poor then just raising minimum wage. Instead of providing some value, you were a dick, avoided the question, and claimed that businesses that go under should? Right now I don't know if your point of view is that we should continue to raise minimum wage, or if you think there is a better way. Maybe you think minimum wage should be 100 dollars a hour. I have no clue, you don't post you position you just insult me and mine, then dodge any question I ask by claiming your just too superior to answer such foolishness. It is getting old. Your video you posted that was "true" to help us all learn the "truth" is what said that about Maduro. If you don't believe why did you post it?
You genuinely aren't able to follow it and I'm not upset about it.
Like I said originally, I support a FJG but distrust our elected officials to enact something like that. I confronted the myth that minimum wage drives job losses. There's no real world evidential support for that (beyond some marginal differences). The underlying position being the same one that created the minimum wage that if it does cause them to go out of business they don't deserve to exist. You can disagree if you want.
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On July 03 2018 13:22 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 13:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 13:13 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 13:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 12:49 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 12:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 11:56 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 10:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 10:16 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 10:10 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Sooo businesses where their servers were making ~$30-$50/hr shut down because it had to pay them a minimum wage of ~$13-15/hr? You don't see the absurdity in that? Because tipping goes directly to the employees not to the owner. So the owners wage cost went up 50% and the servers wages went up 5%. I get for some reason you want to fight with me about everything. But this is not complicated. lol I don't want to fight, I was wondering if you realized how silly it was. So people between food and tip are paying their servers $30-50/hr but if instead it is all for the food the owner can't possibly afford $15/hr. So the customers pay the same, the workers earn less, and somehow it's owner who is getting screwed by either collecting absurd profit or shutting down because somehow they can't turn $30-50 that was going to their employee to at least $15. Surely the problem is the wage and not greedy incompetent ownership... lol Its funny until our recent conversations I really didn't understand how little you knew about topics but were willing to talk like and expert. I feel like I need question everything you write and double check because you have basically no credibility. So first point, not all restaurants make absurd profits. Many people start them with their life savings and finance the rest in debt. These leads to restaurants being one of the riskiest businesses to start. Clientele can be very fickle, one back experience and often they don't come back. People here and most places in NA tip based a % of price and that % is pretty set culturally in each area. So when you raise the price if your competitors don't your customers don't simply go while this would be the same if I tipped 12% instead of 15% over there so I'll just keep coming. Also, is it your thought that a business owner would write in the menu, due to the minimum wage increase I've been forced to increase prices. To keep inline with what you paid before please tip 5% less then you normally would? Yes some restaurant owners do fantastic. And guess what this didn't hurt them. But many of the ones that were just getting by did shut down. If you would like please travel down and see me and I can take you to the empty spots. Not every business owner is a multimillionaire raking in cash hand over first. A lot are barely getting by. Others are trying to barely get by until they can pay their debt off at which point they hope to do well. There needs to be an incentive of profit to exist to encourage people to start businesses which in turn give jobs to others. If not why would you? I've realized you have a hard time understanding arguments. My point was that your whole argument was ridiculous. The minimum wage raise doesn't cause businesses to shut down, being bad businesses does (in addition to many other factors). Profit is far from the only motive for people to do things including starting businesses, didn't you try to tell me you were on the left? Wanting to find a different way to fund the working poor then minimum wage does not make some one right wing, but whatever you are, I am surely not. I don't put myself in either category because I don't completely agree with either side. For example, I cannot blindly say someone like Maduro is great, when he is clearly terrible, simply because he is left wing. I try to look at each issue on its merits and come up with a position on it. I also think there are a lot of conventional things done that don't work out as planned. I could give you many examples from my current work within government if you would like but if it didn't scream communism I'm sure you wouldn't agree, no mater the logic. A lot of well meaning and good sounding arguments do not work out well or have unintended consequences. Much like how I'm sure blizzard had good reasons and thoughts for different buffs and nerfs they did with their various games but they didn't always work out well. Raising costs does cause SOME businesses to shut down, which does cause less jobs. I think your understanding of business, how they are run and how to run them is very low based on your other statements. I don't find a "only the super profitable businesses should exist" theory very left wing. I'm not sure how this works in your mind we only have businesses operate that make huge profits but then we force upon them also super high minimum wage so we have few but high paying jobs? How do you think that would effect inflation? I'll give you a hint go back a few pages and look at inflation in Venezuela. Ideally what I would want and what a lot of left leaning people would want is lots of jobs for everyone of different skills, knowledge and education levels. A livable take home wage that they can safely and healthy raise a family on. If you think minimum wage raising hurt CEO's and the ultra rich you are crazy. This does nothing to the top it pinches the middle and removes jobs from the low. There is some benefit to some but I don't, and many from all parts of the political spectrum, do not think it is the best way. It is a simple way though, and one that scores well with uninformed voters. Which is probably why you love it! But more likely you don't have a horse in the race you just butted in to talk down to me because it makes you feel good for some reason. lol man. The reason I questioned you being on the left is your suggestion that people's sole motivation is profit. I never said "Maduro is great" but that's cool too. Of course rising costs cause some businesses to close. My argument wasn't incredibly dense in text or concept. It's the same one FDR made when he created the minimum wage. Do your thing though;. Much like this, you didn't have an argument. You interjected yourself into a conversation with a snide comment to make yourself feel superior. The question with some back ground info was about a better way to to fund the working poor then just raising minimum wage. Instead of providing some value, you were a dick, avoided the question, and claimed that businesses that go under should? Right now I don't know if your point of view is that we should continue to raise minimum wage, or if you think there is a better way. Maybe you think minimum wage should be 100 dollars a hour. I have no clue, you don't post you position you just insult me and mine, then dodge any question I ask by claiming your just too superior to answer such foolishness. It is getting old. Your video you posted that was "true" to help us all learn the "truth" is what said that about Maduro. If you don't believe why did you post it? You genuinely aren't able to follow it and I'm not upset about it. Like I said originally, I support a FJG but distrust our elected officials to enact something like that. I confronted the myth that minimum wage drives job losses. There's no real world evidential support for that (beyond some marginal differences). The underlying position being the same one that created the minimum wage that if it does cause them to go out of business they don't deserve to exist. You can disagree if you want. If you believe this to be the case. Why wouldn't we simply raise minimum wage to 100 dollars per hour, would this not solve our problems? And why do you not trust our elected officials, but do trust Chavez/Maduro?
Because $100 is far beyond a living wage and would be a stupid idea based on a complete lack of understanding of why we have minimum wage in the first place.
Because we assassinate people who genuinely believe what Chavez was advocating (whether you believe he did it or not).
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On July 03 2018 13:58 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 13:22 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 13:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 13:13 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 13:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 12:49 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 12:31 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 11:56 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 10:23 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
lol I don't want to fight, I was wondering if you realized how silly it was.
So people between food and tip are paying their servers $30-50/hr but if instead it is all for the food the owner can't possibly afford $15/hr.
So the customers pay the same, the workers earn less, and somehow it's owner who is getting screwed by either collecting absurd profit or shutting down because somehow they can't turn $30-50 that was going to their employee to at least $15.
Surely the problem is the wage and not greedy incompetent ownership... lol
Its funny until our recent conversations I really didn't understand how little you knew about topics but were willing to talk like and expert. I feel like I need question everything you write and double check because you have basically no credibility. So first point, not all restaurants make absurd profits. Many people start them with their life savings and finance the rest in debt. These leads to restaurants being one of the riskiest businesses to start. Clientele can be very fickle, one back experience and often they don't come back. People here and most places in NA tip based a % of price and that % is pretty set culturally in each area. So when you raise the price if your competitors don't your customers don't simply go while this would be the same if I tipped 12% instead of 15% over there so I'll just keep coming. Also, is it your thought that a business owner would write in the menu, due to the minimum wage increase I've been forced to increase prices. To keep inline with what you paid before please tip 5% less then you normally would? Yes some restaurant owners do fantastic. And guess what this didn't hurt them. But many of the ones that were just getting by did shut down. If you would like please travel down and see me and I can take you to the empty spots. Not every business owner is a multimillionaire raking in cash hand over first. A lot are barely getting by. Others are trying to barely get by until they can pay their debt off at which point they hope to do well. There needs to be an incentive of profit to exist to encourage people to start businesses which in turn give jobs to others. If not why would you? I've realized you have a hard time understanding arguments. My point was that your whole argument was ridiculous. The minimum wage raise doesn't cause businesses to shut down, being bad businesses does (in addition to many other factors). Profit is far from the only motive for people to do things including starting businesses, didn't you try to tell me you were on the left? Wanting to find a different way to fund the working poor then minimum wage does not make some one right wing, but whatever you are, I am surely not. I don't put myself in either category because I don't completely agree with either side. For example, I cannot blindly say someone like Maduro is great, when he is clearly terrible, simply because he is left wing. I try to look at each issue on its merits and come up with a position on it. I also think there are a lot of conventional things done that don't work out as planned. I could give you many examples from my current work within government if you would like but if it didn't scream communism I'm sure you wouldn't agree, no mater the logic. A lot of well meaning and good sounding arguments do not work out well or have unintended consequences. Much like how I'm sure blizzard had good reasons and thoughts for different buffs and nerfs they did with their various games but they didn't always work out well. Raising costs does cause SOME businesses to shut down, which does cause less jobs. I think your understanding of business, how they are run and how to run them is very low based on your other statements. I don't find a "only the super profitable businesses should exist" theory very left wing. I'm not sure how this works in your mind we only have businesses operate that make huge profits but then we force upon them also super high minimum wage so we have few but high paying jobs? How do you think that would effect inflation? I'll give you a hint go back a few pages and look at inflation in Venezuela. Ideally what I would want and what a lot of left leaning people would want is lots of jobs for everyone of different skills, knowledge and education levels. A livable take home wage that they can safely and healthy raise a family on. If you think minimum wage raising hurt CEO's and the ultra rich you are crazy. This does nothing to the top it pinches the middle and removes jobs from the low. There is some benefit to some but I don't, and many from all parts of the political spectrum, do not think it is the best way. It is a simple way though, and one that scores well with uninformed voters. Which is probably why you love it! But more likely you don't have a horse in the race you just butted in to talk down to me because it makes you feel good for some reason. lol man. The reason I questioned you being on the left is your suggestion that people's sole motivation is profit. I never said "Maduro is great" but that's cool too. Of course rising costs cause some businesses to close. My argument wasn't incredibly dense in text or concept. It's the same one FDR made when he created the minimum wage. Do your thing though;. Much like this, you didn't have an argument. You interjected yourself into a conversation with a snide comment to make yourself feel superior. The question with some back ground info was about a better way to to fund the working poor then just raising minimum wage. Instead of providing some value, you were a dick, avoided the question, and claimed that businesses that go under should? Right now I don't know if your point of view is that we should continue to raise minimum wage, or if you think there is a better way. Maybe you think minimum wage should be 100 dollars a hour. I have no clue, you don't post you position you just insult me and mine, then dodge any question I ask by claiming your just too superior to answer such foolishness. It is getting old. Your video you posted that was "true" to help us all learn the "truth" is what said that about Maduro. If you don't believe why did you post it? You genuinely aren't able to follow it and I'm not upset about it. Like I said originally, I support a FJG but distrust our elected officials to enact something like that. I confronted the myth that minimum wage drives job losses. There's no real world evidential support for that (beyond some marginal differences). The underlying position being the same one that created the minimum wage that if it does cause them to go out of business they don't deserve to exist. You can disagree if you want. If you believe this to be the case. Why wouldn't we simply raise minimum wage to 100 dollars per hour, would this not solve our problems? And why do you not trust our elected officials, but do trust Chavez/Maduro? Because $100 is far beyond a living wage and would be a stupid idea based on a complete lack of understanding of why we have minimum wage in the first place. Because we assassinate people who genuinely believe what Chavez was advocating (whether you believe he did it or not). Because USA has attempted to assassinate people who believe what Chavez was advocating you trust him to govern and implement policy? I don't understand the logic? The USA has also tried to assassinate Right wing dictators does this make them more trustworthy? (what I'm trying to say is America trying to assassinate someone does not make them more or less trustworthy, you would hope that it would make them less but sadly history shows otherwise in some cases) So if not 100 then how about 25? The issue with minimum wage is that the number doesn't matter. What matters is the take home amount compared to cost of living and the opportunity for people gain those jobs. The reason 100 wouldn't work is not because it far beyond a living wage, it wouldn't be far beyond in a very short period of time. Inflation would take over and it would be the same or worse then before, Cost of living would go way up, and there would be way less jobs. You can't simply adjust one lever and not impact the other levers. This is why people are looking into other ways of getting money to the working poor.
No I would trust Chavez more to reallocate resources to poor people than the people who try to assassinate people for trying to do that. Shouldn't be tough to understand.
I guess since you're new here you think you're saying something we haven't discussed at length several times before.
just fyi I'm familiar with the inflationary aspects of approaching issues like this with stuff like minimum wage or a UBI. I mean we've been discussing the merits and problems of minimum wage here going back years.
That's why I find your posts so amusing. But like I said man do your thing. I've told you twice now that I'm a proponent of FJG over both anyway so just let it go.
And as for you thinking Im some how right wing in this regard the plan i suggested means taking money away from the government instead of business owners. I would then make up this government shortfall with a small raise to the higher tax brackets and high profit businesses.
This last part is mostly gibberish to me, but I guess it looks like you missed me saying the comment about asking if you were on the left wasn't about minimum wage or your plan it was about your suggestion that people's sole motivation for business was profit.
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On July 03 2018 13:21 JimmiC wrote:
As to your last statement I agree, US foreign policy has made it much tougher on the governments and their people. But I don't think it is the sole reason, and any time socialist/communist leaders get super wealthy it is hard to believe they are following their own rhetoric. Hell it is hard when any leader becomes super rich through politics to trust them.
True, but then are they still socialist/communist? :D
As a rhetorical, was Stalin a collectivist or an individualist? heh
Also why aren't imperialists viewed the same way? Because of brutal honesty? 
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On July 03 2018 14:25 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2018 14:12 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 13:58 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 13:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 13:22 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 13:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 13:13 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 13:05 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 03 2018 12:49 JimmiC wrote:On July 03 2018 12:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I've realized you have a hard time understanding arguments. My point was that your whole argument was ridiculous.
The minimum wage raise doesn't cause businesses to shut down, being bad businesses does (in addition to many other factors).
Profit is far from the only motive for people to do things including starting businesses, didn't you try to tell me you were on the left? Wanting to find a different way to fund the working poor then minimum wage does not make some one right wing, but whatever you are, I am surely not. I don't put myself in either category because I don't completely agree with either side. For example, I cannot blindly say someone like Maduro is great, when he is clearly terrible, simply because he is left wing. I try to look at each issue on its merits and come up with a position on it. I also think there are a lot of conventional things done that don't work out as planned. I could give you many examples from my current work within government if you would like but if it didn't scream communism I'm sure you wouldn't agree, no mater the logic. A lot of well meaning and good sounding arguments do not work out well or have unintended consequences. Much like how I'm sure blizzard had good reasons and thoughts for different buffs and nerfs they did with their various games but they didn't always work out well. Raising costs does cause SOME businesses to shut down, which does cause less jobs. I think your understanding of business, how they are run and how to run them is very low based on your other statements. I don't find a "only the super profitable businesses should exist" theory very left wing. I'm not sure how this works in your mind we only have businesses operate that make huge profits but then we force upon them also super high minimum wage so we have few but high paying jobs? How do you think that would effect inflation? I'll give you a hint go back a few pages and look at inflation in Venezuela. Ideally what I would want and what a lot of left leaning people would want is lots of jobs for everyone of different skills, knowledge and education levels. A livable take home wage that they can safely and healthy raise a family on. If you think minimum wage raising hurt CEO's and the ultra rich you are crazy. This does nothing to the top it pinches the middle and removes jobs from the low. There is some benefit to some but I don't, and many from all parts of the political spectrum, do not think it is the best way. It is a simple way though, and one that scores well with uninformed voters. Which is probably why you love it! But more likely you don't have a horse in the race you just butted in to talk down to me because it makes you feel good for some reason. lol man. The reason I questioned you being on the left is your suggestion that people's sole motivation is profit. I never said "Maduro is great" but that's cool too. Of course rising costs cause some businesses to close. My argument wasn't incredibly dense in text or concept. It's the same one FDR made when he created the minimum wage. Do your thing though;. Much like this, you didn't have an argument. You interjected yourself into a conversation with a snide comment to make yourself feel superior. The question with some back ground info was about a better way to to fund the working poor then just raising minimum wage. Instead of providing some value, you were a dick, avoided the question, and claimed that businesses that go under should? Right now I don't know if your point of view is that we should continue to raise minimum wage, or if you think there is a better way. Maybe you think minimum wage should be 100 dollars a hour. I have no clue, you don't post you position you just insult me and mine, then dodge any question I ask by claiming your just too superior to answer such foolishness. It is getting old. Your video you posted that was "true" to help us all learn the "truth" is what said that about Maduro. If you don't believe why did you post it? You genuinely aren't able to follow it and I'm not upset about it. Like I said originally, I support a FJG but distrust our elected officials to enact something like that. I confronted the myth that minimum wage drives job losses. There's no real world evidential support for that (beyond some marginal differences). The underlying position being the same one that created the minimum wage that if it does cause them to go out of business they don't deserve to exist. You can disagree if you want. If you believe this to be the case. Why wouldn't we simply raise minimum wage to 100 dollars per hour, would this not solve our problems? And why do you not trust our elected officials, but do trust Chavez/Maduro? Because $100 is far beyond a living wage and would be a stupid idea based on a complete lack of understanding of why we have minimum wage in the first place. Because we assassinate people who genuinely believe what Chavez was advocating (whether you believe he did it or not). Because USA has attempted to assassinate people who believe what Chavez was advocating you trust him to govern and implement policy? I don't understand the logic? The USA has also tried to assassinate Right wing dictators does this make them more trustworthy? (what I'm trying to say is America trying to assassinate someone does not make them more or less trustworthy, you would hope that it would make them less but sadly history shows otherwise in some cases) So if not 100 then how about 25? The issue with minimum wage is that the number doesn't matter. What matters is the take home amount compared to cost of living and the opportunity for people gain those jobs. The reason 100 wouldn't work is not because it far beyond a living wage, it wouldn't be far beyond in a very short period of time. Inflation would take over and it would be the same or worse then before, Cost of living would go way up, and there would be way less jobs. You can't simply adjust one lever and not impact the other levers. This is why people are looking into other ways of getting money to the working poor. No I would trust Chavez more to reallocate resources to poor people than the people who try to assassinate people for trying to do that. Shouldn't be tough to understand. I guess since you're new here you think you're saying something we haven't discussed at length several times before. just fyi I'm familiar with the inflationary aspects of approaching issues like this with stuff like minimum wage or a UBI. I mean we've been discussing the merits and problems of minimum wage here going back years. That's why I find your posts so amusing. But like I said man do your thing. I've told you twice now that I'm a proponent of FJG over both anyway so just let it go. And as for you thinking Im some how right wing in this regard the plan i suggested means taking money away from the government instead of business owners. I would then make up this government shortfall with a small raise to the higher tax brackets and high profit businesses. This last part is mostly gibberish to me, but I guess it looks like you missed me saying the comment about asking if you were on the left wasn't about minimum wage or your plan it was about your suggestion that people's sole motivation for business was profit. Because i never said that. But i do think very few people start or keep businesses to lose money. Almost all have the expectation of making a livable wage and the hope of more. And i think that is fair. Got you, so you understand that I am new and have not been a part of the discussion so instead of catching me up or teaching me you choose to belittle me and talk down to me. Do you think this makes you more a elitist or a bully? As for Chavez, no I understand why you do. I just dont understand why it is such a blind trust. It is one thing to give someone the benefit of the doubt it is another to blindly trust in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Much like when I told you about the people I knew from there you automatically claimed they were the displaced elite (they were not). And then when i pointed out they were part of the thousands leaving every day you called it rightwing propaganda. It is fine to give people the benefit of the doubt if you agree with what you are saying. But it makes sense to check to see if they are living those values not simply professing them.
This is what I was responding to:
There needs to be an incentive of profit to exist to encourage people to start businesses which in turn give jobs to others. If not why would you?
I disagree. I think the many things people do without any hope of profit demonstrates that rather plainly.
You assumed an ignorance on my part that was based off of not doing something like searching my username with a keyword to see if it's something I've discussed before.
As for your obsession on Chavez, we established you were going to think whatever you wanted about that stuff and I had no interest in explaining to you my position or changing your mind.
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EPT
