EPTPerson 1: The Nazis were monsters.
Person 2: No. They don’t get to be monsters. They are men.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1285
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Person 1: The Nazis were monsters. Person 2: No. They don’t get to be monsters. They are men. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
I'm just wondering if the whole thing was made up. Post your real evidence. I don't want the only response to posting actual falsehood to be a "don't worry, he's still a racist" comment. Is there actual news on this front, or were you only fooled into believing a lie from last year was a truth from last week? Well? I'm not asking for you to like Trump or anything, just provide a conclusion to repeating lies that doesn't consist of ignoring what you just did. Call it rising above Trump. | ||
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Introvert
United States5091 Posts
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Pangpootata
1838 Posts
On April 06 2019 09:36 Danglars wrote: Can you post evidence that Trump recently called asylum seekers animals? I get that P6 was fooled by some idiot that repeated a lie from last year. That's natural cognitive behavior when presented with derogatory video of someone you already believe to be capable of doing it. I'm just wondering if the whole thing was made up. Post your real evidence. I don't want the only response to posting actual falsehood to be a "don't worry, he's still a racist" comment. Is there actual news on this front, or were you only fooled into believing a lie from last year was a truth from last week? Well? I'm not asking for you to like Trump or anything, just provide a conclusion to repeating lies that doesn't consist of ignoring what you just did. Call it rising above Trump. + Show Spoiler + He called some of them animals (referring to MS-13 not all illegal immigrants as a whole). Left-leaning media latches on to it and claims that Trump is associating illegal immigrants with animals, when all he is saying is that some of them are. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
Why would we go out and seek out examples of what we see as racism just for you to deny that it’s racism? You have proven to have an extreamly high bar for what you will consider racist. So why is that worthy our time your personal burden of proof? I don’t like it when you throw around the term Fake News every time there is a news article you don’t be like, but I deal with it. You many you just need to deal with people calling Trump racist? | ||
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Pangpootata
1838 Posts
On April 06 2019 09:46 Plansix wrote: Danglers, if we thought he was racist in 2018, shit has not changed. So our opinion has not. He threatened to shut down the border to Mexico for unknown reasons last week, claiming some crisis. Children are still be abused, returned to their parents sick and traumatized. 2019 is a lot like 2018. Sure, I got taken in by an old video of Trump dehumanizing violent criminals. Which still sucks tbh, but nothing about the man has changed. Why would we go out and seek out examples of what we see as racism just for you to deny that it’s racism? You have proven to have an extreamly high bar for what you will consider racist. So why is that worthy our time your personal burden of proof? I don’t like it when you throw around the term Fake News every time there is a news article you don’t be like, but I deal with it. You many you just need to deal with people calling Trump racist? Trump is against illegal immigration from Mexico (and other countries as well). Is being against illegal immigrants racist? That is what left-wing people claim, but other people don't. For example, if someone treats white/black/hispanic/asian people who are citizens or legal immigrants of society the same way, but doesn't treat illegal immigrants the same. It is not racism, but just anti illegal immigrant. In this case it is not the race that is the deciding factor, but the legality of immigration status. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 06 2019 09:50 Pangpootata wrote: Trump is against illegal immigration from Mexico (and other countries as well). Is being against illegal immigrants racist? That is what left-wing people claim, but other people don't. For example, if someone treats white/black/hispanic/asian people who are citizens or legal immigrants of society the same way, but doesn't treat illegal immigrants the same. It is not racism, but just anti illegal immigrant. Illegal immigrants don’t cross at the border, they over stay visas. Asylum seekers cross at the border or at entry points as the first step to legally seeking asylum. Trump has stopped the flow of legal immigrants seeking asylum and focused efforts away from drug smuggling prosecution to deport asylum seekers. While authorizing for profit detention centers to hold children that are taken away from their parents at the border, in violation of a 20 agreement to not detain immigrant children. There is little evidence to support that the Trump administration is for any form of immigration, illegal or legal. Edit: Trump has a long history of racism dating back to the 1980s. Including, but not limited to: demanding the execution of black men acquitted of all criminal charges through DNA testing. Repeatedly. And not renting to black tenants in the 1980, fighting the justice department case forcing him to and then claiming it never happened. He also constantly refers to Porto Rico as another country and recently demanded the president of Porto Rico be thrown in jail. To be fair I support that last part. | ||
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Pangpootata
1838 Posts
On April 06 2019 09:55 Plansix wrote: Illegal immigrants don’t cross at the border, they over stay visas. Asylum seekers cross at the border or at entry points as the first step to legally seeking asylum. Trump has stopped the flow of legal immigrants seeking asylum and focused efforts away from drug smuggling prosecution to deport asylum seekers. While authorizing for profit detention centers to hold children that are taken away from their parents at the border, in violation of a 20 agreement to not detain immigrant children. There is little evidence to support that the Trump administration is for any form of immigration, illegal or legal. Edit: Trump has a long history of racism dating back to the 1980s Trump is totally against illegal immigration. On legal immigration, it is true that Trump wants to reduce the number of legal immigrants the country takes in a year. But it is an extremely long stretch to claim that is racist, as the number of legal immigrants taken in a year depends on the country's growth policy. Trump has said also said he supports merit-based immigration. He wants to select immigrants which are likelier to have higher contributions to the economy rather than ones which are likelier to require state support (such as asylum seekers). You might agree or disagree, depending on whether or you think the purpose of immigration is to benefit the rest of society, or for society to be charitable to them. But Trump has a valid point on immigration. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On April 06 2019 09:50 Pangpootata wrote: Trump is against illegal immigration from Mexico (and other countries as well). Is being against illegal immigrants racist? That is what left-wing people claim, but other people don't. For example, if someone treats white/black/hispanic/asian people who are citizens or legal immigrants of society the same way, but doesn't treat illegal immigrants the same. It is not racism, but just anti illegal immigrant. In this case it is not the race that is the deciding factor, but the legality of immigration status. In theory yeah, and some people do form their judgements in such a way. Trump? No absolutely he does not do this. His comment fs reflect this, his actions reflect this It’s pure opportunistic dog whistling with the guy, I don’t recall this being an issue close to his heart until he was running for President. ‘Some, I assume are good people’ is all you really need to take on board as to either his actual attitudes (of which I feel he has very few), or the attitudes he’ll take on board for his own personal political advancement. You can be against illegal immigration without claiming they’re rapists and murderers, against actual evidence that we have. It’s this focus on the supposed threat that is posed in these terms, and the language used that shifts it from purely being against illegal immigration to something that is prepared to invoke more sinister attitudes | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
If he pursued other angles in his opposition to illegal immigration then yeah, maybe he has a point whatever that may be | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
Trump does plenty of it, it’s blatant and obvious and only the most charitable possible interpretatIon of what the guy says exonerates him for stoking populist fires in this and in other domains. It’s just basic rhetoric. Re Southern immigration, anyone who was concerned with it would say something akin to ‘Most Mexicans are good people but this is an issue’ . Trump frontloads all the negative stuff, some of which isn’t even true with a small caveat at the end. You don’t do this unless you want to highlight the negative stuff: | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9077 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 06 2019 10:07 Pangpootata wrote: Trump is totally against illegal immigration. On legal immigration, it is true that Trump wants to reduce the number of legal immigrants the country takes in a year. But it is an extremely long stretch to claim that is racist, as the number of legal immigrants taken in a year depends on the country's growth policy. Trump has said also said he supports merit-based immigration. He wants to select immigrants which are likelier to have higher contributions to the economy rather than ones which are likelier to require state support (such as asylum seekers). You might agree or disagree, depending on whether or you think the purpose of immigration is to benefit the rest of society, or for society to be charitable to them. But Trump has a valid point on immigration. We already have a merit based immigration system. The current proposal by Steven miller and others to switch falsely named “merit based” system is to change the rules to add numerous reasons to deny immigration status and lower the number of non whites entering the country. The system would also remove the ability to bring over family members, which would effectively reduce the number of immigrants willing to settle in the US permently to zero. Trump and his Steven Miller like supporters do not support any form of immigration, period. They are just smart enough to lie about it. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On April 06 2019 10:21 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: I'd also like to posit his response to the marching of incels in Charlottesville (?) as more than enough evidence. Ah yes a faux pas so egregious that it would tank a President in normal circumstances but is merely a bullet point on a large list with this one. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Pangpootata
1838 Posts
On April 06 2019 10:24 Plansix wrote: We already have a merit based immigration system. The current proposal by Steven miller and others to switch falsely named “merit based” system is to change the rules to add numerous reasons to deny immigration status and lower the number of non whites entering the country. The system would also remove the ability to bring over family members, which would effectively reduce the number of immigrants willing to settle in the US permently to zero. Trump and his Steven Miller like supporters do not support any form of immigration, period. They are just smart enough to lie about it. Immigration lottery, asylum seekers, etc are not merit based immigration, as they are not based on measurements or rankings of potential contributions to society (although using an economic metric is debatable, but that is another topic). Trump wants to get rid of those. It is true that immigrants who already have a higher education level or socioeconomic status (disproportionately white and asians) will benefit more from Trump's proposed merit-based immigration system. But the claims that his true purpose is to reduce non-whites and merit is just a cover, is not falsifiable and is the left-wing version of right-wing conspiracy theories (white-replacement). | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On April 06 2019 09:09 Danglars wrote: You're welcome to call him a racist because he called MS-13 gang members animals last year. Just do the thread a favor and don't use his alleged status as a racist to falsify new evidence of the case. In what trump said, you're confusing ms-13 with all of Mexico. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 06 2019 10:39 Pangpootata wrote: Immigration lottery, asylum seekers, etc are not merit based immigration, as they are not based on measurements or rankings of potential contributions to society (although using an economic metric is debatable, but that is another topic). Trump wants to get rid of those. It is true that immigrants who already have a higher education level or socioeconomic status (disproportionately white and asians) will benefit more from Trump's proposed merit-based immigration system. But the claims that his true purpose is to reduce non-whites and merit is just a cover, is not falsifiable and is the left-wing version of right-wing conspiracy theories (white-replacement). The current system takes into account if the immigrants will contribute to the US. | ||
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