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On September 28 2013 07:14 Leeto wrote:
Yes, the earth has natural climate changes, but it's pretty obvious that after the industrial revolution humans have been adding a lot more pressure than mother nature would have by herself.
The sad thing is that there isn't much we can do about it. Even if the entire USA goes completely green, other industrial nations like China or India who don't really care all that much will keep on doing what they're doing. Things have to get REALLY BAD before people collectively start doing something about it.
Yep, pretty much this. In the meantime, people will use this as an excuse for yet more power grabs by the government, from further regulation of the private sector to even regulation of reproduction as some are calling for here. In the end we'll end up with both less freedom and a worse environment.
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On September 28 2013 07:19 TheOneWhoKnocks wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 07:14 Leeto wrote:
Yes, the earth has natural climate changes, but it's pretty obvious that after the industrial revolution humans have been adding a lot more pressure than mother nature would have by herself.
The sad thing is that there isn't much we can do about it. Even if the entire USA goes completely green, other industrial nations like China or India who don't really care all that much will keep on doing what they're doing. Things have to get REALLY BAD before people collectively start doing something about it. Yep, pretty much this. In the meantime, people will use this as an excuse for yet more power grabs by the government, from further regulation of the private sector to even regulation of reproduction as some are calling for here. In the end we'll end up with both less freedom and a worse environment.
This tin-foil hat paranoia is as much a threat as the power grabbing governments and big corporations.
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On September 28 2013 06:42 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 06:37 Rassy wrote:
FInd this whole climate thing a bit hypocrite tbh.
The biggest contributers to global warming (the usa and the west in general) are also the ones who make the biggest problem out of it lol. We get these reports over and over yet the usa still has not even signed kyoto threaty, let alone actually started with lowering their greenhouse gas output. This is not quite correct, China is very quickly becoming the largest polluter in the world, and has shot down every attempt to get them to rein in their industrial expansion. They have more or less said straight out that they don't care. India is poised to follow in their steps before long. No, that's not what they said. That's what the Americans said. The Chinese, rightly, don't think it's fair for them to take action before the US takes action.
The Americans have far more carbon emissions per capita than the Chinese, and it's the Americans (along with their vassal state Canada) that deserve almost the entire share of the blame for being the only country in the developed world that didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. It takes us back to the point about right-wing think tanks and the climate-change-denying propaganda they spread.
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On September 28 2013 07:23 GhastlyUprising wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 06:42 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 06:37 Rassy wrote:
FInd this whole climate thing a bit hypocrite tbh.
The biggest contributers to global warming (the usa and the west in general) are also the ones who make the biggest problem out of it lol. We get these reports over and over yet the usa still has not even signed kyoto threaty, let alone actually started with lowering their greenhouse gas output. This is not quite correct, China is very quickly becoming the largest polluter in the world, and has shot down every attempt to get them to rein in their industrial expansion. They have more or less said straight out that they don't care. India is poised to follow in their steps before long. No, that's not what they said. That's what the Americans said. The Chinese, rightly, don't think it's fair for them to take action before the US takes action. The Americans have far more pollution per capita than the Chinese, and it's the Americans (along with their vassal state Canada) that deserve almost the entire share of the blame for being the only country in the developed world that didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. It takes us back to the point about right-wing think tanks and the climate-change-denying propaganda they spread.
I am in no way arguing that the refusal of the Bush administration to sign the Kyoto Protocol was disastrous, one of the low points of modern western democracy.
But still, the blame game solves nothing, it only procrastinates. Nature does not care about who did what.
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the IPCC is a den of activist scientists who must show this to be true or else their 20 years of "work" will be shown to be nothing but a big waste of time and money
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On September 28 2013 07:25 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 07:23 GhastlyUprising wrote:On September 28 2013 06:42 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 06:37 Rassy wrote:
FInd this whole climate thing a bit hypocrite tbh.
The biggest contributers to global warming (the usa and the west in general) are also the ones who make the biggest problem out of it lol. We get these reports over and over yet the usa still has not even signed kyoto threaty, let alone actually started with lowering their greenhouse gas output. This is not quite correct, China is very quickly becoming the largest polluter in the world, and has shot down every attempt to get them to rein in their industrial expansion. They have more or less said straight out that they don't care. India is poised to follow in their steps before long. No, that's not what they said. That's what the Americans said. The Chinese, rightly, don't think it's fair for them to take action before the US takes action. The Americans have far more pollution per capita than the Chinese, and it's the Americans (along with their vassal state Canada) that deserve almost the entire share of the blame for being the only country in the developed world that didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. It takes us back to the point about right-wing think tanks and the climate-change-denying propaganda they spread. I am in no way arguing that the refusal of the Bush administration to sign the Kyoto Protocol was disastrous, one of the low points of modern western democracy. But still, the blame game solves nothing, it only procrastinates. Nature does not care about who did what. Well, what you seem to be saying is that the Chinese people should concede that the American people are morally inferior to them (the way the quiet guy at the back of the room turns out to be a better man than the flashy executive guy when the chips are down) and take action to reduce emissions even though they have a third the emissions per capita.
You might be right.
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On September 28 2013 07:28 TricksAre4Figs wrote:
the IPCC is a den of activist scientists who must show this to be true or else their 20 years of "work" will be shown to be nothing but a big waste of time and money
ok. sounds reasonable. i guess they are definitely full of shit then. just disregard the thread 
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On September 28 2013 07:30 GhastlyUprising wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 07:25 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 07:23 GhastlyUprising wrote:On September 28 2013 06:42 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 06:37 Rassy wrote:
FInd this whole climate thing a bit hypocrite tbh.
The biggest contributers to global warming (the usa and the west in general) are also the ones who make the biggest problem out of it lol. We get these reports over and over yet the usa still has not even signed kyoto threaty, let alone actually started with lowering their greenhouse gas output. This is not quite correct, China is very quickly becoming the largest polluter in the world, and has shot down every attempt to get them to rein in their industrial expansion. They have more or less said straight out that they don't care. India is poised to follow in their steps before long. No, that's not what they said. That's what the Americans said. The Chinese, rightly, don't think it's fair for them to take action before the US takes action. The Americans have far more pollution per capita than the Chinese, and it's the Americans (along with their vassal state Canada) that deserve almost the entire share of the blame for being the only country in the developed world that didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. It takes us back to the point about right-wing think tanks and the climate-change-denying propaganda they spread. I am in no way arguing that the refusal of the Bush administration to sign the Kyoto Protocol was disastrous, one of the low points of modern western democracy. But still, the blame game solves nothing, it only procrastinates. Nature does not care about who did what. Well, what you seem to be saying is that the Chinese people should concede that the American people are morally inferior to them and take action to reduce emissions even though they have a third the emissions per capita. You might be right.
Honestly, what are the alternatives at this point? Both of them keep pointing fingers and spewing pollution? Anything is better than nothing, someone has to take the first step.
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hey if you are such a benevolent earth-loving steward of the planet sell your car to the junkyard and then go die so you don't breathe anymore nasty carbon into the atmosphere. And if you're not willing to do that then you and all your friends should vote for the next slick politician who proposes a nice green solution to our problems. I'm sure it will all be in the best interest of you and mother earth.
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On September 28 2013 07:05 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 06:48 Rassy wrote:
The hypocrisy is that we complain about it alot but dont do annything to prevent it.
We dont vote for green partys,we drive our fuel inefficient cars, and then we come here on forum to say how bad global warming is. It just doesnt make sense to me somehow.
Off course there are exceptions to this and some people do vote for green partys and use public transpost, but i think this goes only for a small minority of the people posting on this thread.
Maybe some people use public transport because they still at college, but as soon as they can buy a fuel inefficient car they will, and as soon as they get a decent job they vote for the conservative and traditional partys, and then we all start pointing towards china and india when global warming pops up.
Sry,but am quiet cynical regarding this.
meh.
ps: pls dont be offended if you are actually one of thoose people who does vote for green partys and drives a prius or uses public transpost out of free will. I vote green, I don't drive, I avoid having children, I look for eco-friendly products in the store. Basically all I can do on a personal level without completely giving up my education and future career. It's not much, but as previously stated, it has to start somewhere. But as long as we cannot expect everyone to conform to a non self-centered life-style(or perhaps rather a non-family/tribe centered lifestyle), we cannot rely on humans to solve the problems that humans created by their most basic nature to begin with. All we can do is try to limit the amount of humans available to destroy things. Show nested quote +
Enough with the teenage angst and foolish hyperbole (looking at you Squat). It is well documented - utterly indisputable - that the average temperature on an annual basis hasn't risen anywhere on planet Earth during the last 15 years, this coicides with the greatest release of CO2 into the atmosphere since the dawn of human civilization. And you people dream of state-enforced population-control and god knows what other draconian and horrific measures?
Enough with the pretentions aswell. You lot disregard all relevant reports/papers that doesn't fit your dogma and support your cause. In Orwellian fashion they go poof. You're far more priests and acolytes than scholars. Every five years since the seventies you've predicted the apocalypse. Even after all this time, all this failure - you still hold you're heads so high...
The 15 year argument again, really? You don't even understand the science involved. There is no debate about global warming about serious scientists, keep spouting your ad hominems and weak attempts to get under my skin all you like. Show me any credible report or paper that would not get laughed at by any serious group of experts. No one is predicting a 2012 style apocalypse, and if you think that is what is being said, you again don't really understand anything. Enough indeed, enough with your nonsensical, incoherent, scientifically illiterate rambling, it is tiresome.
Refute it, you're the one with the ridiculous assertions and a lust for power. To be convinced that draconian measures are necessary I need more than the word of a wanna-be climatologist that managed to get a B on a paper of his a few years ago. And please, nothing by Al Gore. Try to resist.
There have been no claims of disaster/apocalypse by climatologists/enviromentalists, huh? Way to go, you sure are credible. You forgot to tell people not to do a basic google search on it though.
Since you didn't seem to get it, I'll reiterate. You people lack (in order) - respect for the Scientific method, common sense, restraint, humility and lastly, shame. You're the Creationists of the natural sciences. Well, you're worse.
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On September 28 2013 07:23 GhastlyUprising wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 06:42 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 06:37 Rassy wrote:
FInd this whole climate thing a bit hypocrite tbh.
The biggest contributers to global warming (the usa and the west in general) are also the ones who make the biggest problem out of it lol. We get these reports over and over yet the usa still has not even signed kyoto threaty, let alone actually started with lowering their greenhouse gas output. This is not quite correct, China is very quickly becoming the largest polluter in the world, and has shot down every attempt to get them to rein in their industrial expansion. They have more or less said straight out that they don't care. India is poised to follow in their steps before long. No, that's not what they said. That's what the Americans said. The Chinese, rightly, don't think it's fair for them to take action before the US takes action. The Americans have far more carbon emissions per capita than the Chinese, and it's the Americans (along with their vassal state Canada) that deserve almost the entire share of the blame for being the only country in the developed world that didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. It takes us back to the point about right-wing think tanks and the climate-change-denying propaganda they spread.
The US is developed as a completely different country than the EU. Many cities are not designed with reducing pollution, and many of these cities were designed decades ago (this among other reasons are why the US didnt sign the Kyoto Protocol)
Also, basing it on per capita isnt entirely fair since so many chinese simply cant afford what americans have. If they could afford it, china would easily be the #1 polluter.
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On September 28 2013 07:41 Subject011 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 07:05 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 06:48 Rassy wrote:
The hypocrisy is that we complain about it alot but dont do annything to prevent it.
We dont vote for green partys,we drive our fuel inefficient cars, and then we come here on forum to say how bad global warming is. It just doesnt make sense to me somehow.
Off course there are exceptions to this and some people do vote for green partys and use public transpost, but i think this goes only for a small minority of the people posting on this thread.
Maybe some people use public transport because they still at college, but as soon as they can buy a fuel inefficient car they will, and as soon as they get a decent job they vote for the conservative and traditional partys, and then we all start pointing towards china and india when global warming pops up.
Sry,but am quiet cynical regarding this.
meh.
ps: pls dont be offended if you are actually one of thoose people who does vote for green partys and drives a prius or uses public transpost out of free will. I vote green, I don't drive, I avoid having children, I look for eco-friendly products in the store. Basically all I can do on a personal level without completely giving up my education and future career. It's not much, but as previously stated, it has to start somewhere. But as long as we cannot expect everyone to conform to a non self-centered life-style(or perhaps rather a non-family/tribe centered lifestyle), we cannot rely on humans to solve the problems that humans created by their most basic nature to begin with. All we can do is try to limit the amount of humans available to destroy things.
Enough with the teenage angst and foolish hyperbole (looking at you Squat). It is well documented - utterly indisputable - that the average temperature on an annual basis hasn't risen anywhere on planet Earth during the last 15 years, this coicides with the greatest release of CO2 into the atmosphere since the dawn of human civilization. And you people dream of state-enforced population-control and god knows what other draconian and horrific measures?
Enough with the pretentions aswell. You lot disregard all relevant reports/papers that doesn't fit your dogma and support your cause. In Orwellian fashion they go poof. You're far more priests and acolytes than scholars. Every five years since the seventies you've predicted the apocalypse. Even after all this time, all this failure - you still hold you're heads so high...
The 15 year argument again, really? You don't even understand the science involved. There is no debate about global warming about serious scientists, keep spouting your ad hominems and weak attempts to get under my skin all you like. Show me any credible report or paper that would not get laughed at by any serious group of experts. Refute it, you're the one with the ridiculous assertions and a lust for power. To be convinced that draconian measures are necessary I need more than the word of a wanna-be climatologist that managed to get a B on a paper of his a few years ago. And please, nothing by Al Gore. Try to resist. There have been no claims of disaster/apocalypse by climatologists/enviromentalists, huh? Way to go, you sure are credible. You forgot to tell people not to do a basic google search on it though.
You are ridiculous, you are either intentionally misinterpreting the entire report, or you simply don't understand the science involved. Just read the report, it contains everything you need to know, If you chose to disregard it because of your preconceived assumptions then that's your problem. I honestly don't really care what would convince you, since you seem so hung up on these supposed "draconian measures" I doubt it would be anything reasonable.
Good to know I have a lust for power, never knew that until now. I mean, since I've always hated being in charge and actively avoided situations where people would look to me for leadership. But it's cool that you linked all those doomsday prophecies from established experts, that sure showed me...wait. What you must be referring to are the heavily scrutinized and very well supported projections they have put forward. See, unlike the frothing deniers, they can't just make shit up and put on their tin foil hats and rant at the big bad gubberment.
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On September 28 2013 07:41 Subject011 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 07:05 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 06:48 Rassy wrote:
The hypocrisy is that we complain about it alot but dont do annything to prevent it.
We dont vote for green partys,we drive our fuel inefficient cars, and then we come here on forum to say how bad global warming is. It just doesnt make sense to me somehow.
Off course there are exceptions to this and some people do vote for green partys and use public transpost, but i think this goes only for a small minority of the people posting on this thread.
Maybe some people use public transport because they still at college, but as soon as they can buy a fuel inefficient car they will, and as soon as they get a decent job they vote for the conservative and traditional partys, and then we all start pointing towards china and india when global warming pops up.
Sry,but am quiet cynical regarding this.
meh.
ps: pls dont be offended if you are actually one of thoose people who does vote for green partys and drives a prius or uses public transpost out of free will. I vote green, I don't drive, I avoid having children, I look for eco-friendly products in the store. Basically all I can do on a personal level without completely giving up my education and future career. It's not much, but as previously stated, it has to start somewhere. But as long as we cannot expect everyone to conform to a non self-centered life-style(or perhaps rather a non-family/tribe centered lifestyle), we cannot rely on humans to solve the problems that humans created by their most basic nature to begin with. All we can do is try to limit the amount of humans available to destroy things.
Enough with the teenage angst and foolish hyperbole (looking at you Squat). It is well documented - utterly indisputable - that the average temperature on an annual basis hasn't risen anywhere on planet Earth during the last 15 years, this coicides with the greatest release of CO2 into the atmosphere since the dawn of human civilization. And you people dream of state-enforced population-control and god knows what other draconian and horrific measures?
Enough with the pretentions aswell. You lot disregard all relevant reports/papers that doesn't fit your dogma and support your cause. In Orwellian fashion they go poof. You're far more priests and acolytes than scholars. Every five years since the seventies you've predicted the apocalypse. Even after all this time, all this failure - you still hold you're heads so high...
The 15 year argument again, really? You don't even understand the science involved. There is no debate about global warming about serious scientists, keep spouting your ad hominems and weak attempts to get under my skin all you like. Show me any credible report or paper that would not get laughed at by any serious group of experts. No one is predicting a 2012 style apocalypse, and if you think that is what is being said, you again don't really understand anything. Enough indeed, enough with your nonsensical, incoherent, scientifically illiterate rambling, it is tiresome. Refute it, you're the one with the ridiculous assertions and a lust for power. To be convinced that draconian measures are necessary I need more than the word of a wanna-be climatologist that managed to get a B on a paper of his a few years ago. And please, nothing by Al Gore. Try to resist. It's not just two people, it's the word of the entire scientific community. That's what this thread is about: climate scientists declaring that they're 95% certain climate change is anthropogenic.
Once you've admitted that there's a good possibility they're not charlatans (and you will have to, if you're rational), then the question is raised as to what measures should be taken. The David Kim approach to the problem (a "slight nerf" here and a "slight buff" there) is not likely to make that much of a difference to carbon emissions.
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On September 28 2013 07:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 07:23 GhastlyUprising wrote:On September 28 2013 06:42 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 06:37 Rassy wrote:
FInd this whole climate thing a bit hypocrite tbh.
The biggest contributers to global warming (the usa and the west in general) are also the ones who make the biggest problem out of it lol. We get these reports over and over yet the usa still has not even signed kyoto threaty, let alone actually started with lowering their greenhouse gas output. This is not quite correct, China is very quickly becoming the largest polluter in the world, and has shot down every attempt to get them to rein in their industrial expansion. They have more or less said straight out that they don't care. India is poised to follow in their steps before long. No, that's not what they said. That's what the Americans said. The Chinese, rightly, don't think it's fair for them to take action before the US takes action. The Americans have far more carbon emissions per capita than the Chinese, and it's the Americans (along with their vassal state Canada) that deserve almost the entire share of the blame for being the only country in the developed world that didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. It takes us back to the point about right-wing think tanks and the climate-change-denying propaganda they spread. The US is developed as a completely different country than the EU. Many cities are not designed with reducing pollution, and many of these cities were designed decades ago (this among other reasons are why the US didnt sign the Kyoto Protocol) Also, basing it on per capita isnt entirely fair since so many chinese simply cant afford what americans have. If they could afford it, china would easily be the #1 polluter.
So, they've got to stop polluting because if they were as rich as the US, they would be polluting more? How does that make any sense?
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On September 28 2013 07:55 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 07:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 28 2013 07:23 GhastlyUprising wrote:On September 28 2013 06:42 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 06:37 Rassy wrote:
FInd this whole climate thing a bit hypocrite tbh.
The biggest contributers to global warming (the usa and the west in general) are also the ones who make the biggest problem out of it lol. We get these reports over and over yet the usa still has not even signed kyoto threaty, let alone actually started with lowering their greenhouse gas output. This is not quite correct, China is very quickly becoming the largest polluter in the world, and has shot down every attempt to get them to rein in their industrial expansion. They have more or less said straight out that they don't care. India is poised to follow in their steps before long. No, that's not what they said. That's what the Americans said. The Chinese, rightly, don't think it's fair for them to take action before the US takes action. The Americans have far more carbon emissions per capita than the Chinese, and it's the Americans (along with their vassal state Canada) that deserve almost the entire share of the blame for being the only country in the developed world that didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. It takes us back to the point about right-wing think tanks and the climate-change-denying propaganda they spread. The US is developed as a completely different country than the EU. Many cities are not designed with reducing pollution, and many of these cities were designed decades ago (this among other reasons are why the US didnt sign the Kyoto Protocol) Also, basing it on per capita isnt entirely fair since so many chinese simply cant afford what americans have. If they could afford it, china would easily be the #1 polluter. So, they've got to stop polluting because if they were as rich as the US, they would be polluting more? How does that make any sense?
Where did I say that at all? I just said that you cant use per capita as a pollution comparison metric.
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On September 28 2013 07:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 07:23 GhastlyUprising wrote:On September 28 2013 06:42 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 06:37 Rassy wrote:
FInd this whole climate thing a bit hypocrite tbh.
The biggest contributers to global warming (the usa and the west in general) are also the ones who make the biggest problem out of it lol. We get these reports over and over yet the usa still has not even signed kyoto threaty, let alone actually started with lowering their greenhouse gas output. This is not quite correct, China is very quickly becoming the largest polluter in the world, and has shot down every attempt to get them to rein in their industrial expansion. They have more or less said straight out that they don't care. India is poised to follow in their steps before long. No, that's not what they said. That's what the Americans said. The Chinese, rightly, don't think it's fair for them to take action before the US takes action. The Americans have far more carbon emissions per capita than the Chinese, and it's the Americans (along with their vassal state Canada) that deserve almost the entire share of the blame for being the only country in the developed world that didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. It takes us back to the point about right-wing think tanks and the climate-change-denying propaganda they spread. The US is developed as a completely different country than the EU. Many cities are not designed with reducing pollution, and many of these cities were designed decades ago (this among other reasons are why the US didnt sign the Kyoto Protocol) Lol...the most utterly ridiculous apologetics for corporate-crony denialism that I have yet seen.
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On September 28 2013 07:56 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 07:55 Sbrubbles wrote:On September 28 2013 07:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 28 2013 07:23 GhastlyUprising wrote:On September 28 2013 06:42 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 06:37 Rassy wrote:
FInd this whole climate thing a bit hypocrite tbh.
The biggest contributers to global warming (the usa and the west in general) are also the ones who make the biggest problem out of it lol. We get these reports over and over yet the usa still has not even signed kyoto threaty, let alone actually started with lowering their greenhouse gas output. This is not quite correct, China is very quickly becoming the largest polluter in the world, and has shot down every attempt to get them to rein in their industrial expansion. They have more or less said straight out that they don't care. India is poised to follow in their steps before long. No, that's not what they said. That's what the Americans said. The Chinese, rightly, don't think it's fair for them to take action before the US takes action. The Americans have far more carbon emissions per capita than the Chinese, and it's the Americans (along with their vassal state Canada) that deserve almost the entire share of the blame for being the only country in the developed world that didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. It takes us back to the point about right-wing think tanks and the climate-change-denying propaganda they spread. The US is developed as a completely different country than the EU. Many cities are not designed with reducing pollution, and many of these cities were designed decades ago (this among other reasons are why the US didnt sign the Kyoto Protocol) Also, basing it on per capita isnt entirely fair since so many chinese simply cant afford what americans have. If they could afford it, china would easily be the #1 polluter. So, they've got to stop polluting because if they were as rich as the US, they would be polluting more? How does that make any sense? Where did I say that at all? I just said that you cant use per capita as a pollution comparison metric.
You failed to explain why not.
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On September 28 2013 07:56 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 07:55 Sbrubbles wrote:On September 28 2013 07:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 28 2013 07:23 GhastlyUprising wrote:On September 28 2013 06:42 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 06:37 Rassy wrote:
FInd this whole climate thing a bit hypocrite tbh.
The biggest contributers to global warming (the usa and the west in general) are also the ones who make the biggest problem out of it lol. We get these reports over and over yet the usa still has not even signed kyoto threaty, let alone actually started with lowering their greenhouse gas output. This is not quite correct, China is very quickly becoming the largest polluter in the world, and has shot down every attempt to get them to rein in their industrial expansion. They have more or less said straight out that they don't care. India is poised to follow in their steps before long. No, that's not what they said. That's what the Americans said. The Chinese, rightly, don't think it's fair for them to take action before the US takes action. The Americans have far more carbon emissions per capita than the Chinese, and it's the Americans (along with their vassal state Canada) that deserve almost the entire share of the blame for being the only country in the developed world that didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. It takes us back to the point about right-wing think tanks and the climate-change-denying propaganda they spread. The US is developed as a completely different country than the EU. Many cities are not designed with reducing pollution, and many of these cities were designed decades ago (this among other reasons are why the US didnt sign the Kyoto Protocol) Also, basing it on per capita isnt entirely fair since so many chinese simply cant afford what americans have. If they could afford it, china would easily be the #1 polluter. So, they've got to stop polluting because if they were as rich as the US, they would be polluting more? How does that make any sense? Where did I say that at all? I just said that you cant use per capita as a pollution comparison metric.
Per capita is a great pollution comparison metric. It's not because an american individual can afford more that he also has the theoretical right to pollute more.
Edit: I'm using "right" in the broadest of senses. In strict sense international restrictions to polluting are minimal, hence the situation the world's at.
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On September 28 2013 07:58 GhastlyUprising wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 07:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 28 2013 07:23 GhastlyUprising wrote:On September 28 2013 06:42 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 06:37 Rassy wrote:
FInd this whole climate thing a bit hypocrite tbh.
The biggest contributers to global warming (the usa and the west in general) are also the ones who make the biggest problem out of it lol. We get these reports over and over yet the usa still has not even signed kyoto threaty, let alone actually started with lowering their greenhouse gas output. This is not quite correct, China is very quickly becoming the largest polluter in the world, and has shot down every attempt to get them to rein in their industrial expansion. They have more or less said straight out that they don't care. India is poised to follow in their steps before long. No, that's not what they said. That's what the Americans said. The Chinese, rightly, don't think it's fair for them to take action before the US takes action. The Americans have far more carbon emissions per capita than the Chinese, and it's the Americans (along with their vassal state Canada) that deserve almost the entire share of the blame for being the only country in the developed world that didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. It takes us back to the point about right-wing think tanks and the climate-change-denying propaganda they spread. The US is developed as a completely different country than the EU. Many cities are not designed with reducing pollution, and many of these cities were designed decades ago (this among other reasons are why the US didnt sign the Kyoto Protocol) Lol...the most utterly ridiculous apologetics for corporate-crony denialism that I have yet seen.
What? What kind of cop out is that?
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm
The average american drives ~37 miles/day.
The average person in the UK drives ~16.7 miles/day
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325262/Rise-super-commuter-Number-Britons-travelling-hours-day-work-soars-50-cent-years.html
Then you also have all of the mileage from trucks/trains going cross country, planes going cross country etc.
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On September 28 2013 08:01 HellRoxYa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 07:56 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 28 2013 07:55 Sbrubbles wrote:On September 28 2013 07:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 28 2013 07:23 GhastlyUprising wrote:On September 28 2013 06:42 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 06:37 Rassy wrote:
FInd this whole climate thing a bit hypocrite tbh.
The biggest contributers to global warming (the usa and the west in general) are also the ones who make the biggest problem out of it lol. We get these reports over and over yet the usa still has not even signed kyoto threaty, let alone actually started with lowering their greenhouse gas output. This is not quite correct, China is very quickly becoming the largest polluter in the world, and has shot down every attempt to get them to rein in their industrial expansion. They have more or less said straight out that they don't care. India is poised to follow in their steps before long. No, that's not what they said. That's what the Americans said. The Chinese, rightly, don't think it's fair for them to take action before the US takes action. The Americans have far more carbon emissions per capita than the Chinese, and it's the Americans (along with their vassal state Canada) that deserve almost the entire share of the blame for being the only country in the developed world that didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. It takes us back to the point about right-wing think tanks and the climate-change-denying propaganda they spread. The US is developed as a completely different country than the EU. Many cities are not designed with reducing pollution, and many of these cities were designed decades ago (this among other reasons are why the US didnt sign the Kyoto Protocol) Also, basing it on per capita isnt entirely fair since so many chinese simply cant afford what americans have. If they could afford it, china would easily be the #1 polluter. So, they've got to stop polluting because if they were as rich as the US, they would be polluting more? How does that make any sense? Where did I say that at all? I just said that you cant use per capita as a pollution comparison metric. You failed to explain why not.
Because if people could afford a car instead of a bicycle/scooter, they would drive. More drivers = more time on the road due to traffic = more pollution.
On September 28 2013 08:02 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 07:56 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 28 2013 07:55 Sbrubbles wrote:On September 28 2013 07:45 TheRabidDeer wrote:On September 28 2013 07:23 GhastlyUprising wrote:On September 28 2013 06:42 Squat wrote:On September 28 2013 06:37 Rassy wrote:
FInd this whole climate thing a bit hypocrite tbh.
The biggest contributers to global warming (the usa and the west in general) are also the ones who make the biggest problem out of it lol. We get these reports over and over yet the usa still has not even signed kyoto threaty, let alone actually started with lowering their greenhouse gas output. This is not quite correct, China is very quickly becoming the largest polluter in the world, and has shot down every attempt to get them to rein in their industrial expansion. They have more or less said straight out that they don't care. India is poised to follow in their steps before long. No, that's not what they said. That's what the Americans said. The Chinese, rightly, don't think it's fair for them to take action before the US takes action. The Americans have far more carbon emissions per capita than the Chinese, and it's the Americans (along with their vassal state Canada) that deserve almost the entire share of the blame for being the only country in the developed world that didn't sign the Kyoto Protocol. It takes us back to the point about right-wing think tanks and the climate-change-denying propaganda they spread. The US is developed as a completely different country than the EU. Many cities are not designed with reducing pollution, and many of these cities were designed decades ago (this among other reasons are why the US didnt sign the Kyoto Protocol) Also, basing it on per capita isnt entirely fair since so many chinese simply cant afford what americans have. If they could afford it, china would easily be the #1 polluter. So, they've got to stop polluting because if they were as rich as the US, they would be polluting more? How does that make any sense? Where did I say that at all? I just said that you cant use per capita as a pollution comparison metric. Per capita is a great pollution comparison metric. It's not because an american individual can afford more that he also has the theoretical right to pollute more. Edit: I'm using "right" in the broadest of senses. In strict sense international restrictions to polluting are minimal, hence the situation the world's at.
It is not a "right" it is a choice. A choice that everybody would make because living your daily life in a convenient fashion is important for people. If I took away 80% of the cars in the US and made cities so that you could walk/bike everywhere in a reasonable time you can be damned sure we would be polluting less per capita.
Basically, China CANT pollute more so they dont. Which is why PER CAPITA it is not a fair comparison.
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