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Nice job TL. This means a lot to all of your LGBT readership! I come here as much for esports news as for the community and cultural stuff too. This site is much more than esports imo.
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On June 25 2013 15:31 Matoo- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 15:04 Shantastic wrote:On June 25 2013 14:52 Matoo- wrote:On June 25 2013 14:41 Shantastic wrote:On June 25 2013 14:31 Matoo- wrote:
I support that.
However, I often feel annoyed as how the rainbow has been taken over by the LGBT movement. I have rainbow wristbands from the 2008 Olympics, and also a great-looking rainbow umbrella bought just a few weeks ago. The colors of the rainbow have always been beautiful to me. But today if I go out by myself wearing either of those, people will think that I am either a) proclaiming my homosexuality or b) proclaiming my support of the LGBT movement. It's certainly not the end of the world, and I do support the LGBT movement, but there are times when I would like to wear the natural and timeless colors of the rainbow without all the added human baggage. I wish another symbol would have been picked. The rainbow wasn't taken over by the LGBT movement. It was associated with "gayness" by a gay-panicked society. The LGBT movement responded by proudly accepting the symbolization of the rainbow and wearing it proudly. Do you have a source for this? All the ones I've been looking up just now tell that the rainbow flag was created specifically in response to the need the gay community had for a symbol. A source on general cultural knowledge? Men in heteronormative American societies have always been encouraged to wear darker, duller colors, and bright multi-color has been frequently associated with effeminacy, before and after the rainbow flag was designed. I thought you meant that anti-gay people had explicitely associated rainbow colors with gays as a means of derision. But in reality you're more talking about the "look this guy wearing a pink shirt, he's so gay" cliché. Apart from pink, guys have always been able to wear bright colors without getting called out for it, but anyway, yeah, I agree you've got a point.
Fuck that noize I'm straight and pink is my favorite color. I dig the way it seems the western Europeans are more evolved with respect to their views on fashion and style where non-baggy pants and pink aren't immediately labeled as "oh my shit bro that's totes all kinds of gays" as is common here in good ole USA
It'd be pretty sweet to be able to wear whatever the fuck you want without having to consider "hmm wait maybe I shouldn't wear this in this area -- it might make some anti-gay nutjob harass me and accuse me of being gay or flamboyant". Gotta do what we can to get this bullshit stamped out so it's gone for good within the next couple generations.
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On June 26 2013 02:15 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 15:31 Matoo- wrote:On June 25 2013 15:04 Shantastic wrote:On June 25 2013 14:52 Matoo- wrote:On June 25 2013 14:41 Shantastic wrote:On June 25 2013 14:31 Matoo- wrote:
I support that.
However, I often feel annoyed as how the rainbow has been taken over by the LGBT movement. I have rainbow wristbands from the 2008 Olympics, and also a great-looking rainbow umbrella bought just a few weeks ago. The colors of the rainbow have always been beautiful to me. But today if I go out by myself wearing either of those, people will think that I am either a) proclaiming my homosexuality or b) proclaiming my support of the LGBT movement. It's certainly not the end of the world, and I do support the LGBT movement, but there are times when I would like to wear the natural and timeless colors of the rainbow without all the added human baggage. I wish another symbol would have been picked. The rainbow wasn't taken over by the LGBT movement. It was associated with "gayness" by a gay-panicked society. The LGBT movement responded by proudly accepting the symbolization of the rainbow and wearing it proudly. Do you have a source for this? All the ones I've been looking up just now tell that the rainbow flag was created specifically in response to the need the gay community had for a symbol. A source on general cultural knowledge? Men in heteronormative American societies have always been encouraged to wear darker, duller colors, and bright multi-color has been frequently associated with effeminacy, before and after the rainbow flag was designed. I thought you meant that anti-gay people had explicitely associated rainbow colors with gays as a means of derision. But in reality you're more talking about the "look this guy wearing a pink shirt, he's so gay" cliché. Apart from pink, guys have always been able to wear bright colors without getting called out for it, but anyway, yeah, I agree you've got a point. Fuck that noize I'm straight and pink is my favorite color. I dig the way it seems the western Europeans are more evolved with respect to their views on fashion and style where non-baggy pants and pink aren't immediately labeled as "oh my shit bro that's totes all kinds of gays" as is common here in good ole USA
You should see our gay guys. If you're a guy and you're not taking your fashion advice from a European gay you're doing it wrong.
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On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:On June 26 2013 01:00 caradoc wrote:On June 25 2013 14:15 Fission wrote:It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings. I love the mods for doing this and feel they have shown extraordinary restraint in not dropping banhammers like it's in style.I also admire all the brave sexual and gender minoritied people who have posted in this thread, knowing how ugly it would be in here. + Show Spoiler + Wow Fission, awesome post. I'm also really happy we can have a space for this. I myself often get pretty impatient with homophobia and the related intolerances. Then I'll tell myself well, the intolerance of others can be damaging, and it's best if the issues can be explained intelligently/respectfully/patiently since in-roads are never made otherwise---- so I should check my own intolerance of those who I think are intolerant at the door. I can disagree with intolerance and still be assertive and try to open up peoples perspectives with good discussion. People are more emotional than we all realize-- angry discussion usually just galvanizes opinions, regardless of how logical we think we're being and how we imagine logic to trump emotion in discussion. Oh, and mad props on the banner :D Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud. "You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here.
I don't think it's about tolerating intolerance, I think it's about "It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings."
I mostly just get tired of the fact that "equality" mostly seems to mean "equal opportunities regardless of sex, race and sexuality". And don't get me wrong, I fully support equal job opportunities, marriage for all who truly love their partner, and everything else in that regard, because these are all things that a "minority" lesbian girl could do just as well as a white straight male (just to name the opposites). I also truly like the new banner. But there are many more ways in which people differ, and they don't get nearly the same amount of attention while people who belong to a different kind of minority can feel just as bad for the same reasons. Maybe even worse, as few people acknowledge their situation.
As far as I know most "white cis straight middle class males" are simply guys tired of being told to respect anything and everything all the time. I'm basing this mostly on my surroundings, so I could be terribly wrong.
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On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 01:00 caradoc wrote:On June 25 2013 14:15 Fission wrote:It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings. I love the mods for doing this and feel they have shown extraordinary restraint in not dropping banhammers like it's in style.I also admire all the brave sexual and gender minoritied people who have posted in this thread, knowing how ugly it would be in here. + Show Spoiler + Wow Fission, awesome post. I'm also really happy we can have a space for this. I myself often get pretty impatient with homophobia and the related intolerances. Then I'll tell myself well, the intolerance of others can be damaging, and it's best if the issues can be explained intelligently/respectfully/patiently since in-roads are never made otherwise---- so I should check my own intolerance of those who I think are intolerant at the door. I can disagree with intolerance and still be assertive and try to open up peoples perspectives with good discussion. People are more emotional than we all realize-- angry discussion usually just galvanizes opinions, regardless of how logical we think we're being and how we imagine logic to trump emotion in discussion. Oh, and mad props on the banner :D Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud.
On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:On June 26 2013 01:00 caradoc wrote:On June 25 2013 14:15 Fission wrote:It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings. I love the mods for doing this and feel they have shown extraordinary restraint in not dropping banhammers like it's in style.I also admire all the brave sexual and gender minoritied people who have posted in this thread, knowing how ugly it would be in here. + Show Spoiler + Wow Fission, awesome post. I'm also really happy we can have a space for this. I myself often get pretty impatient with homophobia and the related intolerances. Then I'll tell myself well, the intolerance of others can be damaging, and it's best if the issues can be explained intelligently/respectfully/patiently since in-roads are never made otherwise---- so I should check my own intolerance of those who I think are intolerant at the door. I can disagree with intolerance and still be assertive and try to open up peoples perspectives with good discussion. People are more emotional than we all realize-- angry discussion usually just galvanizes opinions, regardless of how logical we think we're being and how we imagine logic to trump emotion in discussion. Oh, and mad props on the banner :D Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud. "You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here.
I think we all agree here-- I was trying to make the same point that you guys are making, without calling it out aggressively. Easier in this context to find common ground and work from there than to start off with an antagonistic stance.
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On June 26 2013 03:18 Neemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:On June 26 2013 01:00 caradoc wrote:On June 25 2013 14:15 Fission wrote:It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings. I love the mods for doing this and feel they have shown extraordinary restraint in not dropping banhammers like it's in style.I also admire all the brave sexual and gender minoritied people who have posted in this thread, knowing how ugly it would be in here. + Show Spoiler + Wow Fission, awesome post. I'm also really happy we can have a space for this. I myself often get pretty impatient with homophobia and the related intolerances. Then I'll tell myself well, the intolerance of others can be damaging, and it's best if the issues can be explained intelligently/respectfully/patiently since in-roads are never made otherwise---- so I should check my own intolerance of those who I think are intolerant at the door. I can disagree with intolerance and still be assertive and try to open up peoples perspectives with good discussion. People are more emotional than we all realize-- angry discussion usually just galvanizes opinions, regardless of how logical we think we're being and how we imagine logic to trump emotion in discussion. Oh, and mad props on the banner :D Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud. "You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here. I don't think it's about tolerating intolerance, I think it's about "It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings." I mostly just get tired of the fact that "equality" mostly seems to mean "equal opportunities regardless of sex, race and sexuality". And don't get me wrong, I fully support equal job opportunities, marriage for all who truly love their partner, and everything else in that regard, because these are all things that a "minority" lesbian girl could do just as well as a white straight male (just to name the opposites). I also truly like the new banner. But there are many more ways in which people differ, and they don't get nearly the same amount of attention while people who belong to a different kind of minority can feel just as bad for the same reasons. Maybe even worse, as few people acknowledge their situation.
Maybe you could help me out by listing the minorities that you think aren't getting enough attention? Particularly minorities that people refuse to give attention to?
As far as I know most "white cis straight middle class males" are simply guys tired of being told to respect anything and everything all the time. I'm basing this mostly on my surroundings, so I could be terribly wrong.
So...these straight white guys are tired of being told they can't be assholes? Why am I supposed to feel sorry for these particular straight white guys?
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On June 26 2013 03:18 Neemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:On June 26 2013 01:00 caradoc wrote:On June 25 2013 14:15 Fission wrote:It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings. I love the mods for doing this and feel they have shown extraordinary restraint in not dropping banhammers like it's in style.I also admire all the brave sexual and gender minoritied people who have posted in this thread, knowing how ugly it would be in here. + Show Spoiler + Wow Fission, awesome post. I'm also really happy we can have a space for this. I myself often get pretty impatient with homophobia and the related intolerances. Then I'll tell myself well, the intolerance of others can be damaging, and it's best if the issues can be explained intelligently/respectfully/patiently since in-roads are never made otherwise---- so I should check my own intolerance of those who I think are intolerant at the door. I can disagree with intolerance and still be assertive and try to open up peoples perspectives with good discussion. People are more emotional than we all realize-- angry discussion usually just galvanizes opinions, regardless of how logical we think we're being and how we imagine logic to trump emotion in discussion. Oh, and mad props on the banner :D Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud. "You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here. I don't think it's about tolerating intolerance, I think it's about "It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings." I mostly just get tired of the fact that "equality" mostly seems to mean "equal opportunities regardless of sex, race and sexuality". And don't get me wrong, I fully support equal job opportunities, marriage for all who truly love their partner, and everything else in that regard, because these are all things that a "minority" lesbian girl could do just as well as a white straight male (just to name the opposites). I also truly like the new banner. But there are many more ways in which people differ, and they don't get nearly the same amount of attention while people who belong to a different kind of minority can feel just as bad for the same reasons. Maybe even worse, as few people acknowledge their situation. As far as I know most "white cis straight middle class males" are simply guys tired of being told to respect anything and everything all the time. I'm basing this mostly on my surroundings, so I could be terribly wrong.
As a white guy in the US, I would like if I couldn't be labeled with things like "privileged" or a "whiner" by members of minority groups. Its annoying and does not reflect who I am. They don't know me or who I am, so I don't really see any reason why they feel the need to label me. I am sure they can justify using the word "privilege," through some well thought out argument as to why my life has been made easier by being white, male and straight. I could justify any number of labels for any minority groups, true or not, through a well through out argument as well, but I don't.
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On June 26 2013 03:24 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 03:18 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:On June 26 2013 01:00 caradoc wrote:On June 25 2013 14:15 Fission wrote:It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings. I love the mods for doing this and feel they have shown extraordinary restraint in not dropping banhammers like it's in style.I also admire all the brave sexual and gender minoritied people who have posted in this thread, knowing how ugly it would be in here. + Show Spoiler + Wow Fission, awesome post. I'm also really happy we can have a space for this. I myself often get pretty impatient with homophobia and the related intolerances. Then I'll tell myself well, the intolerance of others can be damaging, and it's best if the issues can be explained intelligently/respectfully/patiently since in-roads are never made otherwise---- so I should check my own intolerance of those who I think are intolerant at the door. I can disagree with intolerance and still be assertive and try to open up peoples perspectives with good discussion. People are more emotional than we all realize-- angry discussion usually just galvanizes opinions, regardless of how logical we think we're being and how we imagine logic to trump emotion in discussion. Oh, and mad props on the banner :D Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud. "You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here. I don't think it's about tolerating intolerance, I think it's about "It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings." I mostly just get tired of the fact that "equality" mostly seems to mean "equal opportunities regardless of sex, race and sexuality". And don't get me wrong, I fully support equal job opportunities, marriage for all who truly love their partner, and everything else in that regard, because these are all things that a "minority" lesbian girl could do just as well as a white straight male (just to name the opposites). I also truly like the new banner. But there are many more ways in which people differ, and they don't get nearly the same amount of attention while people who belong to a different kind of minority can feel just as bad for the same reasons. Maybe even worse, as few people acknowledge their situation. Maybe you could help me out by listing the minorities that you think aren't getting enough attention? Particularly minorities that people refuse to give attention to?
I wouldn't go as far as saying people "refuse" to give attention to anyone, but I didn't go into specifics because I feel they are really based on my own experiences (not being disadvantages by any, just noticing them happening) and because I didn't want to derail the thread. But if you want me to list a few:
- People literally saying that they couldn't understand how one could ever truly love a fat person
- All the kids around the world who are being bullied for having a strange hobby, not having a common hobby or having different tastes
- Introverted people (usually dismissed as being boring or uninteresting)
- Sick people of any kind (physically disabled people are getting a lot of attention in most cases, but mentally disabled people... they rarely do)
- Ugly people (usually covertly, and while being subjective, people who are deemed attractive by many people are more highly rated on pretty much everything other attribute compared to people who are deemed less attractive)
- Intelligence
- Religion
Obviously all these different people are still allowed to marry, but all these people can be made fun of or feel excluded for these very reasons. And because most of them aren't superficial, it's hard for many people to know what it's like to be really introverted, so less people know "what it's like".
As far as I know most "white cis straight middle class males" are simply guys tired of being told to respect anything and everything all the time. I'm basing this mostly on my surroundings, so I could be terribly wrong.
So...these straight white guys are tired of being told they can't be assholes? Why am I supposed to feel sorry for these particular straight white guys?
I think Plansix below you summarized this way better than I did. It's not about being told "don't be an asshole" and no one is asking you to feel sorry for them, but if we're not supposed to dismiss a group of people for a certain quality because a few members of that group behave in a particular way, then just don't do it at all.
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On June 26 2013 03:58 Neemi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 03:24 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:18 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:On June 26 2013 01:00 caradoc wrote:On June 25 2013 14:15 Fission wrote:It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings. I love the mods for doing this and feel they have shown extraordinary restraint in not dropping banhammers like it's in style.I also admire all the brave sexual and gender minoritied people who have posted in this thread, knowing how ugly it would be in here. + Show Spoiler + Wow Fission, awesome post. I'm also really happy we can have a space for this. I myself often get pretty impatient with homophobia and the related intolerances. Then I'll tell myself well, the intolerance of others can be damaging, and it's best if the issues can be explained intelligently/respectfully/patiently since in-roads are never made otherwise---- so I should check my own intolerance of those who I think are intolerant at the door. I can disagree with intolerance and still be assertive and try to open up peoples perspectives with good discussion. People are more emotional than we all realize-- angry discussion usually just galvanizes opinions, regardless of how logical we think we're being and how we imagine logic to trump emotion in discussion. Oh, and mad props on the banner :D Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud. "You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here. I don't think it's about tolerating intolerance, I think it's about "It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings." I mostly just get tired of the fact that "equality" mostly seems to mean "equal opportunities regardless of sex, race and sexuality". And don't get me wrong, I fully support equal job opportunities, marriage for all who truly love their partner, and everything else in that regard, because these are all things that a "minority" lesbian girl could do just as well as a white straight male (just to name the opposites). I also truly like the new banner. But there are many more ways in which people differ, and they don't get nearly the same amount of attention while people who belong to a different kind of minority can feel just as bad for the same reasons. Maybe even worse, as few people acknowledge their situation. Maybe you could help me out by listing the minorities that you think aren't getting enough attention? Particularly minorities that people refuse to give attention to? I wouldn't go as far as saying people "refuse" to give attention to anyone, but I didn't go into specifics because I feel they are really based on my own experiences (not being disadvantages by any, just noticing them happening) and because I didn't want to derail the thread. But if you want me to list a few: - People literally saying that they couldn't understand how one could ever truly love a fat person - All the kids around the world who are being bullied for having a strange hobby, not having a common hobby or having different tastes - Introverted people (usually dismissed as being boring or uninteresting) - Sick people of any kind (physically disabled people are getting a lot of attention in most cases, but mentally disabled people... they rarely do) - Ugly people (usually covertly, and while being subjective, people who are deemed attractive by many people are more highly rated on pretty much everything other attribute compared to people who are deemed less attractive) - Intelligence - Religion Obviously all these different people are still allowed to marry, but all these people can be made fun of or feel excluded for these very reasons. And because most of them aren't superficial, it's hard for many people to know what it's like to be really introverted, so less people know "what it's like". Show nested quote +As far as I know most "white cis straight middle class males" are simply guys tired of being told to respect anything and everything all the time. I'm basing this mostly on my surroundings, so I could be terribly wrong.
So...these straight white guys are tired of being told they can't be assholes? Why am I supposed to feel sorry for these particular straight white guys? I think Plansix below you summarized this way better than I did. It's not about being told "don't be an asshole" and no one is asking you to feel sorry for them, but if we're not supposed to dismiss a group of people for a certain quality because a few members of that group behave in a particular way, then just don't do it at all.
None of those people you listed are denied rights. And I don't understand your second response. Could you please clarify? Are you saying you're not supposed to dismiss a group because of the way a few members of that group act but it would just be better if those few members didn't do that? Could you give an example there?
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FuDDx
United States5015 Posts
All this craziness aside. I Made the rainbow my facebook sig for equality!!!
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On June 26 2013 04:09 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 03:58 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 03:24 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:18 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:On June 26 2013 01:00 caradoc wrote:On June 25 2013 14:15 Fission wrote:It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings. I love the mods for doing this and feel they have shown extraordinary restraint in not dropping banhammers like it's in style.I also admire all the brave sexual and gender minoritied people who have posted in this thread, knowing how ugly it would be in here. + Show Spoiler + Wow Fission, awesome post. I'm also really happy we can have a space for this. I myself often get pretty impatient with homophobia and the related intolerances. Then I'll tell myself well, the intolerance of others can be damaging, and it's best if the issues can be explained intelligently/respectfully/patiently since in-roads are never made otherwise---- so I should check my own intolerance of those who I think are intolerant at the door. I can disagree with intolerance and still be assertive and try to open up peoples perspectives with good discussion. People are more emotional than we all realize-- angry discussion usually just galvanizes opinions, regardless of how logical we think we're being and how we imagine logic to trump emotion in discussion. Oh, and mad props on the banner :D Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud. "You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here. I don't think it's about tolerating intolerance, I think it's about "It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings." I mostly just get tired of the fact that "equality" mostly seems to mean "equal opportunities regardless of sex, race and sexuality". And don't get me wrong, I fully support equal job opportunities, marriage for all who truly love their partner, and everything else in that regard, because these are all things that a "minority" lesbian girl could do just as well as a white straight male (just to name the opposites). I also truly like the new banner. But there are many more ways in which people differ, and they don't get nearly the same amount of attention while people who belong to a different kind of minority can feel just as bad for the same reasons. Maybe even worse, as few people acknowledge their situation. Maybe you could help me out by listing the minorities that you think aren't getting enough attention? Particularly minorities that people refuse to give attention to? I wouldn't go as far as saying people "refuse" to give attention to anyone, but I didn't go into specifics because I feel they are really based on my own experiences (not being disadvantages by any, just noticing them happening) and because I didn't want to derail the thread. But if you want me to list a few: - People literally saying that they couldn't understand how one could ever truly love a fat person - All the kids around the world who are being bullied for having a strange hobby, not having a common hobby or having different tastes - Introverted people (usually dismissed as being boring or uninteresting) - Sick people of any kind (physically disabled people are getting a lot of attention in most cases, but mentally disabled people... they rarely do) - Ugly people (usually covertly, and while being subjective, people who are deemed attractive by many people are more highly rated on pretty much everything other attribute compared to people who are deemed less attractive) - Intelligence - Religion Obviously all these different people are still allowed to marry, but all these people can be made fun of or feel excluded for these very reasons. And because most of them aren't superficial, it's hard for many people to know what it's like to be really introverted, so less people know "what it's like". As far as I know most "white cis straight middle class males" are simply guys tired of being told to respect anything and everything all the time. I'm basing this mostly on my surroundings, so I could be terribly wrong.
So...these straight white guys are tired of being told they can't be assholes? Why am I supposed to feel sorry for these particular straight white guys? I think Plansix below you summarized this way better than I did. It's not about being told "don't be an asshole" and no one is asking you to feel sorry for them, but if we're not supposed to dismiss a group of people for a certain quality because a few members of that group behave in a particular way, then just don't do it at all. None of those people you listed are denied rights. And I don't understand your second response. Could you please clarify? Are you saying you're not supposed to dismiss a group because of the way a few members of that group act but it would just be better if those few members didn't do that? Could you give an example there?
So because they were not denied rights, you get to call them privileged by default? If they have terminal cancer, but you didn't know because they don't wear a sign, can you still call them privileged just because you are gay?
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On June 26 2013 04:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 04:09 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:58 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 03:24 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:18 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:On June 26 2013 01:00 caradoc wrote:On June 25 2013 14:15 Fission wrote:It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings. I love the mods for doing this and feel they have shown extraordinary restraint in not dropping banhammers like it's in style.I also admire all the brave sexual and gender minoritied people who have posted in this thread, knowing how ugly it would be in here. + Show Spoiler + Wow Fission, awesome post. I'm also really happy we can have a space for this. I myself often get pretty impatient with homophobia and the related intolerances. Then I'll tell myself well, the intolerance of others can be damaging, and it's best if the issues can be explained intelligently/respectfully/patiently since in-roads are never made otherwise---- so I should check my own intolerance of those who I think are intolerant at the door. I can disagree with intolerance and still be assertive and try to open up peoples perspectives with good discussion. People are more emotional than we all realize-- angry discussion usually just galvanizes opinions, regardless of how logical we think we're being and how we imagine logic to trump emotion in discussion. Oh, and mad props on the banner :D Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud. "You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here. I don't think it's about tolerating intolerance, I think it's about "It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings." I mostly just get tired of the fact that "equality" mostly seems to mean "equal opportunities regardless of sex, race and sexuality". And don't get me wrong, I fully support equal job opportunities, marriage for all who truly love their partner, and everything else in that regard, because these are all things that a "minority" lesbian girl could do just as well as a white straight male (just to name the opposites). I also truly like the new banner. But there are many more ways in which people differ, and they don't get nearly the same amount of attention while people who belong to a different kind of minority can feel just as bad for the same reasons. Maybe even worse, as few people acknowledge their situation. Maybe you could help me out by listing the minorities that you think aren't getting enough attention? Particularly minorities that people refuse to give attention to? I wouldn't go as far as saying people "refuse" to give attention to anyone, but I didn't go into specifics because I feel they are really based on my own experiences (not being disadvantages by any, just noticing them happening) and because I didn't want to derail the thread. But if you want me to list a few: - People literally saying that they couldn't understand how one could ever truly love a fat person - All the kids around the world who are being bullied for having a strange hobby, not having a common hobby or having different tastes - Introverted people (usually dismissed as being boring or uninteresting) - Sick people of any kind (physically disabled people are getting a lot of attention in most cases, but mentally disabled people... they rarely do) - Ugly people (usually covertly, and while being subjective, people who are deemed attractive by many people are more highly rated on pretty much everything other attribute compared to people who are deemed less attractive) - Intelligence - Religion Obviously all these different people are still allowed to marry, but all these people can be made fun of or feel excluded for these very reasons. And because most of them aren't superficial, it's hard for many people to know what it's like to be really introverted, so less people know "what it's like". As far as I know most "white cis straight middle class males" are simply guys tired of being told to respect anything and everything all the time. I'm basing this mostly on my surroundings, so I could be terribly wrong.
So...these straight white guys are tired of being told they can't be assholes? Why am I supposed to feel sorry for these particular straight white guys? I think Plansix below you summarized this way better than I did. It's not about being told "don't be an asshole" and no one is asking you to feel sorry for them, but if we're not supposed to dismiss a group of people for a certain quality because a few members of that group behave in a particular way, then just don't do it at all. None of those people you listed are denied rights. And I don't understand your second response. Could you please clarify? Are you saying you're not supposed to dismiss a group because of the way a few members of that group act but it would just be better if those few members didn't do that? Could you give an example there? So because they were not denied rights, you get to call them privileged by default? If they have terminal cancer, but you didn't know because they don't wear a sign, can you still call them privileged just because you are gay?
There's a reason I have stopped responding to your posts. You refuse to acknowledge the definition of privilege in the context of social justice and you have arbitrarily decided it is a personal insult. Even Scarlett tried to correct this dumbass misconception but apparently you people just aren't having it. Go home.
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On June 26 2013 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 04:13 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2013 04:09 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:58 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 03:24 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:18 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:On June 26 2013 01:00 caradoc wrote:On June 25 2013 14:15 Fission wrote:It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings. I love the mods for doing this and feel they have shown extraordinary restraint in not dropping banhammers like it's in style.I also admire all the brave sexual and gender minoritied people who have posted in this thread, knowing how ugly it would be in here. + Show Spoiler + Wow Fission, awesome post. I'm also really happy we can have a space for this. I myself often get pretty impatient with homophobia and the related intolerances. Then I'll tell myself well, the intolerance of others can be damaging, and it's best if the issues can be explained intelligently/respectfully/patiently since in-roads are never made otherwise---- so I should check my own intolerance of those who I think are intolerant at the door. I can disagree with intolerance and still be assertive and try to open up peoples perspectives with good discussion. People are more emotional than we all realize-- angry discussion usually just galvanizes opinions, regardless of how logical we think we're being and how we imagine logic to trump emotion in discussion. Oh, and mad props on the banner :D Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud. "You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here. I don't think it's about tolerating intolerance, I think it's about "It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings." I mostly just get tired of the fact that "equality" mostly seems to mean "equal opportunities regardless of sex, race and sexuality". And don't get me wrong, I fully support equal job opportunities, marriage for all who truly love their partner, and everything else in that regard, because these are all things that a "minority" lesbian girl could do just as well as a white straight male (just to name the opposites). I also truly like the new banner. But there are many more ways in which people differ, and they don't get nearly the same amount of attention while people who belong to a different kind of minority can feel just as bad for the same reasons. Maybe even worse, as few people acknowledge their situation. Maybe you could help me out by listing the minorities that you think aren't getting enough attention? Particularly minorities that people refuse to give attention to? I wouldn't go as far as saying people "refuse" to give attention to anyone, but I didn't go into specifics because I feel they are really based on my own experiences (not being disadvantages by any, just noticing them happening) and because I didn't want to derail the thread. But if you want me to list a few: - People literally saying that they couldn't understand how one could ever truly love a fat person - All the kids around the world who are being bullied for having a strange hobby, not having a common hobby or having different tastes - Introverted people (usually dismissed as being boring or uninteresting) - Sick people of any kind (physically disabled people are getting a lot of attention in most cases, but mentally disabled people... they rarely do) - Ugly people (usually covertly, and while being subjective, people who are deemed attractive by many people are more highly rated on pretty much everything other attribute compared to people who are deemed less attractive) - Intelligence - Religion Obviously all these different people are still allowed to marry, but all these people can be made fun of or feel excluded for these very reasons. And because most of them aren't superficial, it's hard for many people to know what it's like to be really introverted, so less people know "what it's like". As far as I know most "white cis straight middle class males" are simply guys tired of being told to respect anything and everything all the time. I'm basing this mostly on my surroundings, so I could be terribly wrong.
So...these straight white guys are tired of being told they can't be assholes? Why am I supposed to feel sorry for these particular straight white guys? I think Plansix below you summarized this way better than I did. It's not about being told "don't be an asshole" and no one is asking you to feel sorry for them, but if we're not supposed to dismiss a group of people for a certain quality because a few members of that group behave in a particular way, then just don't do it at all. None of those people you listed are denied rights. And I don't understand your second response. Could you please clarify? Are you saying you're not supposed to dismiss a group because of the way a few members of that group act but it would just be better if those few members didn't do that? Could you give an example there? So because they were not denied rights, you get to call them privileged by default? If they have terminal cancer, but you didn't know because they don't wear a sign, can you still call them privileged just because you are gay? There's a reason I have stopped responding to your posts. You refuse to acknowledge the definition of privilege in the context of social justice and you have arbitrarily decided it is a personal insult. Even Scarlett tried to correct this dumbass misconception but apparently you people just aren't having it. Go home.
Why do you insist on labeling people you don't know or entire social groups? Isn't that exactly what your are fighting against? How you can say that I am privileged just because I date a woman and I happen to be white? Why are you allowed to assume things about me, but I am not allowed to assume things about you?
Do you see the flaw with the argument and why some people object to it?
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On June 26 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 04:13 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2013 04:09 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:58 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 03:24 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:18 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:On June 26 2013 01:00 caradoc wrote:
[quote]
Wow Fission, awesome post.
I'm also really happy we can have a space for this. I myself often get pretty impatient with homophobia and the related intolerances. Then I'll tell myself well, the intolerance of others can be damaging, and it's best if the issues can be explained intelligently/respectfully/patiently since in-roads are never made otherwise---- so I should check my own intolerance of those who I think are intolerant at the door. I can disagree with intolerance and still be assertive and try to open up peoples perspectives with good discussion.
People are more emotional than we all realize-- angry discussion usually just galvanizes opinions, regardless of how logical we think we're being and how we imagine logic to trump emotion in discussion.
Oh, and mad props on the banner :D Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud. "You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here. I don't think it's about tolerating intolerance, I think it's about "It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings." I mostly just get tired of the fact that "equality" mostly seems to mean "equal opportunities regardless of sex, race and sexuality". And don't get me wrong, I fully support equal job opportunities, marriage for all who truly love their partner, and everything else in that regard, because these are all things that a "minority" lesbian girl could do just as well as a white straight male (just to name the opposites). I also truly like the new banner. But there are many more ways in which people differ, and they don't get nearly the same amount of attention while people who belong to a different kind of minority can feel just as bad for the same reasons. Maybe even worse, as few people acknowledge their situation. Maybe you could help me out by listing the minorities that you think aren't getting enough attention? Particularly minorities that people refuse to give attention to? I wouldn't go as far as saying people "refuse" to give attention to anyone, but I didn't go into specifics because I feel they are really based on my own experiences (not being disadvantages by any, just noticing them happening) and because I didn't want to derail the thread. But if you want me to list a few: - People literally saying that they couldn't understand how one could ever truly love a fat person - All the kids around the world who are being bullied for having a strange hobby, not having a common hobby or having different tastes - Introverted people (usually dismissed as being boring or uninteresting) - Sick people of any kind (physically disabled people are getting a lot of attention in most cases, but mentally disabled people... they rarely do) - Ugly people (usually covertly, and while being subjective, people who are deemed attractive by many people are more highly rated on pretty much everything other attribute compared to people who are deemed less attractive) - Intelligence - Religion Obviously all these different people are still allowed to marry, but all these people can be made fun of or feel excluded for these very reasons. And because most of them aren't superficial, it's hard for many people to know what it's like to be really introverted, so less people know "what it's like". As far as I know most "white cis straight middle class males" are simply guys tired of being told to respect anything and everything all the time. I'm basing this mostly on my surroundings, so I could be terribly wrong.
So...these straight white guys are tired of being told they can't be assholes? Why am I supposed to feel sorry for these particular straight white guys? I think Plansix below you summarized this way better than I did. It's not about being told "don't be an asshole" and no one is asking you to feel sorry for them, but if we're not supposed to dismiss a group of people for a certain quality because a few members of that group behave in a particular way, then just don't do it at all. None of those people you listed are denied rights. And I don't understand your second response. Could you please clarify? Are you saying you're not supposed to dismiss a group because of the way a few members of that group act but it would just be better if those few members didn't do that? Could you give an example there? So because they were not denied rights, you get to call them privileged by default? If they have terminal cancer, but you didn't know because they don't wear a sign, can you still call them privileged just because you are gay? There's a reason I have stopped responding to your posts. You refuse to acknowledge the definition of privilege in the context of social justice and you have arbitrarily decided it is a personal insult. Even Scarlett tried to correct this dumbass misconception but apparently you people just aren't having it. Go home. Why do you insist on labeling people you don't know or entire social groups? Isn't that exactly what your are fighting against? How you can say that I am privileged just because I date a woman and I happen to be white? Why are you allowed to assume things about me, but I am not allowed to assume things about you?
Don't bother man it's like talking to a brick wall, they are literally incapable of seeing the irony. Check yo privilege son.
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On June 26 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 04:13 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2013 04:09 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:58 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 03:24 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:18 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:On June 26 2013 01:00 caradoc wrote:
[quote]
Wow Fission, awesome post.
I'm also really happy we can have a space for this. I myself often get pretty impatient with homophobia and the related intolerances. Then I'll tell myself well, the intolerance of others can be damaging, and it's best if the issues can be explained intelligently/respectfully/patiently since in-roads are never made otherwise---- so I should check my own intolerance of those who I think are intolerant at the door. I can disagree with intolerance and still be assertive and try to open up peoples perspectives with good discussion.
People are more emotional than we all realize-- angry discussion usually just galvanizes opinions, regardless of how logical we think we're being and how we imagine logic to trump emotion in discussion.
Oh, and mad props on the banner :D Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud. "You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here. I don't think it's about tolerating intolerance, I think it's about "It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings." I mostly just get tired of the fact that "equality" mostly seems to mean "equal opportunities regardless of sex, race and sexuality". And don't get me wrong, I fully support equal job opportunities, marriage for all who truly love their partner, and everything else in that regard, because these are all things that a "minority" lesbian girl could do just as well as a white straight male (just to name the opposites). I also truly like the new banner. But there are many more ways in which people differ, and they don't get nearly the same amount of attention while people who belong to a different kind of minority can feel just as bad for the same reasons. Maybe even worse, as few people acknowledge their situation. Maybe you could help me out by listing the minorities that you think aren't getting enough attention? Particularly minorities that people refuse to give attention to? I wouldn't go as far as saying people "refuse" to give attention to anyone, but I didn't go into specifics because I feel they are really based on my own experiences (not being disadvantages by any, just noticing them happening) and because I didn't want to derail the thread. But if you want me to list a few: - People literally saying that they couldn't understand how one could ever truly love a fat person - All the kids around the world who are being bullied for having a strange hobby, not having a common hobby or having different tastes - Introverted people (usually dismissed as being boring or uninteresting) - Sick people of any kind (physically disabled people are getting a lot of attention in most cases, but mentally disabled people... they rarely do) - Ugly people (usually covertly, and while being subjective, people who are deemed attractive by many people are more highly rated on pretty much everything other attribute compared to people who are deemed less attractive) - Intelligence - Religion Obviously all these different people are still allowed to marry, but all these people can be made fun of or feel excluded for these very reasons. And because most of them aren't superficial, it's hard for many people to know what it's like to be really introverted, so less people know "what it's like". As far as I know most "white cis straight middle class males" are simply guys tired of being told to respect anything and everything all the time. I'm basing this mostly on my surroundings, so I could be terribly wrong.
So...these straight white guys are tired of being told they can't be assholes? Why am I supposed to feel sorry for these particular straight white guys? I think Plansix below you summarized this way better than I did. It's not about being told "don't be an asshole" and no one is asking you to feel sorry for them, but if we're not supposed to dismiss a group of people for a certain quality because a few members of that group behave in a particular way, then just don't do it at all. None of those people you listed are denied rights. And I don't understand your second response. Could you please clarify? Are you saying you're not supposed to dismiss a group because of the way a few members of that group act but it would just be better if those few members didn't do that? Could you give an example there? So because they were not denied rights, you get to call them privileged by default? If they have terminal cancer, but you didn't know because they don't wear a sign, can you still call them privileged just because you are gay? There's a reason I have stopped responding to your posts. You refuse to acknowledge the definition of privilege in the context of social justice and you have arbitrarily decided it is a personal insult. Even Scarlett tried to correct this dumbass misconception but apparently you people just aren't having it. Go home. Why do you insist on labeling people you don't know or entire social groups? Isn't that exactly what your are fighting against? How you can say that I am privileged just because I date a woman and I happen to be white? Why are you allowed to assume things about me, but I am not allowed to assume things about you? Do you see the flaw with the argument and why some people object to it?
No. Because you're not understanding the definition of privilege and you have obstinately refused to do so for the majority of this thread's run. All of those questions would easily be answered if you'd take your head out of your ass and actually admit that you are misunderstanding privilege.
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On June 26 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 04:13 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2013 04:09 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:58 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 03:24 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:18 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:On June 26 2013 01:00 caradoc wrote:
[quote]
Wow Fission, awesome post.
I'm also really happy we can have a space for this. I myself often get pretty impatient with homophobia and the related intolerances. Then I'll tell myself well, the intolerance of others can be damaging, and it's best if the issues can be explained intelligently/respectfully/patiently since in-roads are never made otherwise---- so I should check my own intolerance of those who I think are intolerant at the door. I can disagree with intolerance and still be assertive and try to open up peoples perspectives with good discussion.
People are more emotional than we all realize-- angry discussion usually just galvanizes opinions, regardless of how logical we think we're being and how we imagine logic to trump emotion in discussion.
Oh, and mad props on the banner :D Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud. "You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here. I don't think it's about tolerating intolerance, I think it's about "It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings." I mostly just get tired of the fact that "equality" mostly seems to mean "equal opportunities regardless of sex, race and sexuality". And don't get me wrong, I fully support equal job opportunities, marriage for all who truly love their partner, and everything else in that regard, because these are all things that a "minority" lesbian girl could do just as well as a white straight male (just to name the opposites). I also truly like the new banner. But there are many more ways in which people differ, and they don't get nearly the same amount of attention while people who belong to a different kind of minority can feel just as bad for the same reasons. Maybe even worse, as few people acknowledge their situation. Maybe you could help me out by listing the minorities that you think aren't getting enough attention? Particularly minorities that people refuse to give attention to? I wouldn't go as far as saying people "refuse" to give attention to anyone, but I didn't go into specifics because I feel they are really based on my own experiences (not being disadvantages by any, just noticing them happening) and because I didn't want to derail the thread. But if you want me to list a few: - People literally saying that they couldn't understand how one could ever truly love a fat person - All the kids around the world who are being bullied for having a strange hobby, not having a common hobby or having different tastes - Introverted people (usually dismissed as being boring or uninteresting) - Sick people of any kind (physically disabled people are getting a lot of attention in most cases, but mentally disabled people... they rarely do) - Ugly people (usually covertly, and while being subjective, people who are deemed attractive by many people are more highly rated on pretty much everything other attribute compared to people who are deemed less attractive) - Intelligence - Religion Obviously all these different people are still allowed to marry, but all these people can be made fun of or feel excluded for these very reasons. And because most of them aren't superficial, it's hard for many people to know what it's like to be really introverted, so less people know "what it's like". As far as I know most "white cis straight middle class males" are simply guys tired of being told to respect anything and everything all the time. I'm basing this mostly on my surroundings, so I could be terribly wrong.
So...these straight white guys are tired of being told they can't be assholes? Why am I supposed to feel sorry for these particular straight white guys? I think Plansix below you summarized this way better than I did. It's not about being told "don't be an asshole" and no one is asking you to feel sorry for them, but if we're not supposed to dismiss a group of people for a certain quality because a few members of that group behave in a particular way, then just don't do it at all. None of those people you listed are denied rights. And I don't understand your second response. Could you please clarify? Are you saying you're not supposed to dismiss a group because of the way a few members of that group act but it would just be better if those few members didn't do that? Could you give an example there? So because they were not denied rights, you get to call them privileged by default? If they have terminal cancer, but you didn't know because they don't wear a sign, can you still call them privileged just because you are gay? There's a reason I have stopped responding to your posts. You refuse to acknowledge the definition of privilege in the context of social justice and you have arbitrarily decided it is a personal insult. Even Scarlett tried to correct this dumbass misconception but apparently you people just aren't having it. Go home. Why do you insist on labeling people you don't know or entire social groups? Isn't that exactly what your are fighting against? How you can say that I am privileged just because I date a woman and I happen to be white? Why are you allowed to assume things about me, but I am not allowed to assume things about you? Do you see the flaw with the argument and why some people object to it?
To be fair, the fact that one dates a woman and is white is all that is enough to qualify someone as priviledged in certain domains. It doesn't mean you're wealthy or whatever, and it says nothing about whether you consciously exercise this privilege or power, it simply means that in those domains you have relative social power over the alternatives. The power itself isn't necessarily obvious, it could be as simple as being allowed to express a given opinion or fact about ones life without it being subject to the expectation of further elaboration or explanation or justification, but power imbalance is still there.
Like it or not, society is shaped by covert norms, which if you violate or happen to be outside of open you up to sanction or disadvantage in negotiating a social situation. Being categorizable as being 'the norm' puts you in a position of relative power over those outside of the norm. It's how every single society on earth operates (even though the norms themselves are different).
If you don't like the word 'privileged', substitute it for 'powerful' or whatever, but it doesn't change the fact that these norms exist.
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On June 26 2013 04:21 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2013 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 04:13 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2013 04:09 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:58 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 03:24 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:18 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:
[quote]
Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud. "You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here. I don't think it's about tolerating intolerance, I think it's about "It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings." I mostly just get tired of the fact that "equality" mostly seems to mean "equal opportunities regardless of sex, race and sexuality". And don't get me wrong, I fully support equal job opportunities, marriage for all who truly love their partner, and everything else in that regard, because these are all things that a "minority" lesbian girl could do just as well as a white straight male (just to name the opposites). I also truly like the new banner. But there are many more ways in which people differ, and they don't get nearly the same amount of attention while people who belong to a different kind of minority can feel just as bad for the same reasons. Maybe even worse, as few people acknowledge their situation. Maybe you could help me out by listing the minorities that you think aren't getting enough attention? Particularly minorities that people refuse to give attention to? I wouldn't go as far as saying people "refuse" to give attention to anyone, but I didn't go into specifics because I feel they are really based on my own experiences (not being disadvantages by any, just noticing them happening) and because I didn't want to derail the thread. But if you want me to list a few: - People literally saying that they couldn't understand how one could ever truly love a fat person - All the kids around the world who are being bullied for having a strange hobby, not having a common hobby or having different tastes - Introverted people (usually dismissed as being boring or uninteresting) - Sick people of any kind (physically disabled people are getting a lot of attention in most cases, but mentally disabled people... they rarely do) - Ugly people (usually covertly, and while being subjective, people who are deemed attractive by many people are more highly rated on pretty much everything other attribute compared to people who are deemed less attractive) - Intelligence - Religion Obviously all these different people are still allowed to marry, but all these people can be made fun of or feel excluded for these very reasons. And because most of them aren't superficial, it's hard for many people to know what it's like to be really introverted, so less people know "what it's like". As far as I know most "white cis straight middle class males" are simply guys tired of being told to respect anything and everything all the time. I'm basing this mostly on my surroundings, so I could be terribly wrong.
So...these straight white guys are tired of being told they can't be assholes? Why am I supposed to feel sorry for these particular straight white guys? I think Plansix below you summarized this way better than I did. It's not about being told "don't be an asshole" and no one is asking you to feel sorry for them, but if we're not supposed to dismiss a group of people for a certain quality because a few members of that group behave in a particular way, then just don't do it at all. None of those people you listed are denied rights. And I don't understand your second response. Could you please clarify? Are you saying you're not supposed to dismiss a group because of the way a few members of that group act but it would just be better if those few members didn't do that? Could you give an example there? So because they were not denied rights, you get to call them privileged by default? If they have terminal cancer, but you didn't know because they don't wear a sign, can you still call them privileged just because you are gay? There's a reason I have stopped responding to your posts. You refuse to acknowledge the definition of privilege in the context of social justice and you have arbitrarily decided it is a personal insult. Even Scarlett tried to correct this dumbass misconception but apparently you people just aren't having it. Go home. Why do you insist on labeling people you don't know or entire social groups? Isn't that exactly what your are fighting against? How you can say that I am privileged just because I date a woman and I happen to be white? Why are you allowed to assume things about me, but I am not allowed to assume things about you? Do you see the flaw with the argument and why some people object to it? No. Because you're not understanding the definition of privilege and you have obstinately refused to do so for the majority of this thread's run. All of those questions would easily be answered if you'd take your head out of your ass and actually admit that you are misunderstanding privilege.
Am I privileged because I just happen to be white and straight? If so, why do you gain the ability to assume that about me with only those two pieces of information? And could I make any assumption about someone based solely their race and sexual orientation that would be acceptable?
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On June 26 2013 04:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 04:21 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2013 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 04:13 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2013 04:09 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:58 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 03:24 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:18 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:
[quote]
"You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here. I don't think it's about tolerating intolerance, I think it's about "It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings." I mostly just get tired of the fact that "equality" mostly seems to mean "equal opportunities regardless of sex, race and sexuality". And don't get me wrong, I fully support equal job opportunities, marriage for all who truly love their partner, and everything else in that regard, because these are all things that a "minority" lesbian girl could do just as well as a white straight male (just to name the opposites). I also truly like the new banner. But there are many more ways in which people differ, and they don't get nearly the same amount of attention while people who belong to a different kind of minority can feel just as bad for the same reasons. Maybe even worse, as few people acknowledge their situation. Maybe you could help me out by listing the minorities that you think aren't getting enough attention? Particularly minorities that people refuse to give attention to? I wouldn't go as far as saying people "refuse" to give attention to anyone, but I didn't go into specifics because I feel they are really based on my own experiences (not being disadvantages by any, just noticing them happening) and because I didn't want to derail the thread. But if you want me to list a few: - People literally saying that they couldn't understand how one could ever truly love a fat person - All the kids around the world who are being bullied for having a strange hobby, not having a common hobby or having different tastes - Introverted people (usually dismissed as being boring or uninteresting) - Sick people of any kind (physically disabled people are getting a lot of attention in most cases, but mentally disabled people... they rarely do) - Ugly people (usually covertly, and while being subjective, people who are deemed attractive by many people are more highly rated on pretty much everything other attribute compared to people who are deemed less attractive) - Intelligence - Religion Obviously all these different people are still allowed to marry, but all these people can be made fun of or feel excluded for these very reasons. And because most of them aren't superficial, it's hard for many people to know what it's like to be really introverted, so less people know "what it's like". As far as I know most "white cis straight middle class males" are simply guys tired of being told to respect anything and everything all the time. I'm basing this mostly on my surroundings, so I could be terribly wrong.
So...these straight white guys are tired of being told they can't be assholes? Why am I supposed to feel sorry for these particular straight white guys? I think Plansix below you summarized this way better than I did. It's not about being told "don't be an asshole" and no one is asking you to feel sorry for them, but if we're not supposed to dismiss a group of people for a certain quality because a few members of that group behave in a particular way, then just don't do it at all. None of those people you listed are denied rights. And I don't understand your second response. Could you please clarify? Are you saying you're not supposed to dismiss a group because of the way a few members of that group act but it would just be better if those few members didn't do that? Could you give an example there? So because they were not denied rights, you get to call them privileged by default? If they have terminal cancer, but you didn't know because they don't wear a sign, can you still call them privileged just because you are gay? There's a reason I have stopped responding to your posts. You refuse to acknowledge the definition of privilege in the context of social justice and you have arbitrarily decided it is a personal insult. Even Scarlett tried to correct this dumbass misconception but apparently you people just aren't having it. Go home. Why do you insist on labeling people you don't know or entire social groups? Isn't that exactly what your are fighting against? How you can say that I am privileged just because I date a woman and I happen to be white? Why are you allowed to assume things about me, but I am not allowed to assume things about you? Do you see the flaw with the argument and why some people object to it? No. Because you're not understanding the definition of privilege and you have obstinately refused to do so for the majority of this thread's run. All of those questions would easily be answered if you'd take your head out of your ass and actually admit that you are misunderstanding privilege. Am I privileged because I just happen to be white and straight? If so, why do you gain the ability to assume that about me with only those two pieces of information? And could I make any assumption about someone based solely their race and sexual orientation that would be acceptable?
See my above post. Yes, you are. It has nothing to do with you in particular or your personality, and everything to do with the way society is structured and what is taken to be 'normal' or 'default'.
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On June 26 2013 04:24 caradoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 04:18 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2013 04:17 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 04:13 Plansix wrote:On June 26 2013 04:09 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:58 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 03:24 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 03:18 Neemi wrote:On June 26 2013 01:59 Klondikebar wrote:On June 26 2013 01:57 Yorke wrote:
[quote]
Yeah awesome post, fighting bigotry and prejudice with bigotry and prejudice. SRS would be proud. "You have to tolerate my intolerance!" ...c'mon dude we've all been here long enough to know that's shit. Don't peddle that crap here. I don't think it's about tolerating intolerance, I think it's about "It seemed inevitable that this thread would end up with a torrent of white cis straight middle class males decrying the concept of privilege and whining that it hurts their feelings." I mostly just get tired of the fact that "equality" mostly seems to mean "equal opportunities regardless of sex, race and sexuality". And don't get me wrong, I fully support equal job opportunities, marriage for all who truly love their partner, and everything else in that regard, because these are all things that a "minority" lesbian girl could do just as well as a white straight male (just to name the opposites). I also truly like the new banner. But there are many more ways in which people differ, and they don't get nearly the same amount of attention while people who belong to a different kind of minority can feel just as bad for the same reasons. Maybe even worse, as few people acknowledge their situation. Maybe you could help me out by listing the minorities that you think aren't getting enough attention? Particularly minorities that people refuse to give attention to? I wouldn't go as far as saying people "refuse" to give attention to anyone, but I didn't go into specifics because I feel they are really based on my own experiences (not being disadvantages by any, just noticing them happening) and because I didn't want to derail the thread. But if you want me to list a few: - People literally saying that they couldn't understand how one could ever truly love a fat person - All the kids around the world who are being bullied for having a strange hobby, not having a common hobby or having different tastes - Introverted people (usually dismissed as being boring or uninteresting) - Sick people of any kind (physically disabled people are getting a lot of attention in most cases, but mentally disabled people... they rarely do) - Ugly people (usually covertly, and while being subjective, people who are deemed attractive by many people are more highly rated on pretty much everything other attribute compared to people who are deemed less attractive) - Intelligence - Religion Obviously all these different people are still allowed to marry, but all these people can be made fun of or feel excluded for these very reasons. And because most of them aren't superficial, it's hard for many people to know what it's like to be really introverted, so less people know "what it's like". As far as I know most "white cis straight middle class males" are simply guys tired of being told to respect anything and everything all the time. I'm basing this mostly on my surroundings, so I could be terribly wrong.
So...these straight white guys are tired of being told they can't be assholes? Why am I supposed to feel sorry for these particular straight white guys? I think Plansix below you summarized this way better than I did. It's not about being told "don't be an asshole" and no one is asking you to feel sorry for them, but if we're not supposed to dismiss a group of people for a certain quality because a few members of that group behave in a particular way, then just don't do it at all. None of those people you listed are denied rights. And I don't understand your second response. Could you please clarify? Are you saying you're not supposed to dismiss a group because of the way a few members of that group act but it would just be better if those few members didn't do that? Could you give an example there? So because they were not denied rights, you get to call them privileged by default? If they have terminal cancer, but you didn't know because they don't wear a sign, can you still call them privileged just because you are gay? There's a reason I have stopped responding to your posts. You refuse to acknowledge the definition of privilege in the context of social justice and you have arbitrarily decided it is a personal insult. Even Scarlett tried to correct this dumbass misconception but apparently you people just aren't having it. Go home. Why do you insist on labeling people you don't know or entire social groups? Isn't that exactly what your are fighting against? How you can say that I am privileged just because I date a woman and I happen to be white? Why are you allowed to assume things about me, but I am not allowed to assume things about you? Do you see the flaw with the argument and why some people object to it? To be fair, the fact that one dates a woman and is white is all that is enough to qualify someone as priviledged in certain domains. It doesn't mean you're wealthy or whatever, it means that in those domains you have relative social power over the alternatives. The power itself isn't necessarily obvious, it could be as simple as being allowed to express a given opinion or fact about ones life without it being subject to the expectation of further elaboration or explanation or justification, but power imbalance is still there. Like it or not, society is shaped by covert norms, which if you violate or happen to be outside of open you up to sanction or disadvantage in negotiating a social situation. Being categorizable as being 'the norm' puts you in a position of relative power over those outside of the norm. It's how every single society on earth operates (even though the norms themselves are different). If you don't like the word 'privileged', substitute it for 'powerful' or whatever, but it doesn't change the fact that these norms exist.
If someone told me that society unfairly empowered me because I am white and straight, I would agreed. It is a far better way to convey the idea that claiming someone is privileged just because they happen to be a white and straight. It also denotes that it done against my will. If someone calls me privileged, the first thing I want to do is stop being privileged. When I am told I can't stop, I feel like I am being defined against my will and trapped into a negative social group that I cannot escape.
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On June 25 2013 21:35 Beemith wrote:Show nested quote +you might want to read about the part where it actually states that marriage is between a man and a woman. But why is it defined this way? And again can you please tell me how you come to the conclusion that: Show nested quote +Healthcare is not a right. A college education and a nice job are not rights. Those are privileges. those are not rights for people?
Marriage is defined this way because when the Constitution was made back in the day, this was the social norm, and thus was voted upon as law. Knowing that people would change with time, the Constitution has the ability to be Amended as the people see fit. The great thing about this country (USA) is that if enough people get behind something, it doesn't matter what it is almost always. If the majority votes it, then that's the way it is. If all of a sudden every gay person got up and voted at the magical "gay marriage" elections that I just put in front of everyone, gay rights would be voted in immediately if the demographics and opinion polls are correct.
As for why those aren't rights, I have a three fold explanation:
1. As it is currently written, those are not rights of an American Citizen (Healthcare is getting tricky now so I'll disregard it for this current argument. Not to discredit, but because it's in a state of flux). So in the most basic form, they aren't rights because they aren't on the list of designated rights. If this is something people want to change, then it will most likely change.
2. While it is perfectly acceptable to want an education and Healthcare to be a right, just because something should be some way doesn't mean that the way the laws are written should be denied because we don't see them fit. Follow the rules until you change them. I can't wait for the day that the US can afford free college education for everyone, and no person regardless of income would go without Healthcare. But that isn't the reality, and so for the moment I'll wish for those to be rights, fight for them when the opportunity arises, but I won't tell someone that they ARE rights, because, well, they AREN'T, at least in my country.
3. This may be seen as kind of upsetting, but rights are a mental construct, not a physical entitlement. As a human being, we are literally granted one right just for being born. What I mean by this, is that if all of a sudden a person were to go crazy and attack you, would your right to not be harmed stop him from attacking you? If you were a caveman, and no rules were in place, would a perceived "right" of yours stop them from doing whatever they liked? It most certainly wouldn't, but in a world where we have allowed ourselves to construct a complicated society based on balancing equality and judgement, we can set up mental barriers, or rights, to these extents. The only actual physical right a person has, is to be able to use their own body to the maximum of it's abilities in how they see fit. Beginning of time, this meant whoever was stronger won, regardless. Now that we've evolved on a societal level, this means that we have the right to live, although frankly even that is a bold way of putting it considering people die everyday that shouldn't due to random or natural causes.
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