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On June 17 2012 02:00 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 09:21 Defacer wrote:
Edit: Obama's policies are to the right of Canada's conservative 'right-wing' Prime Minister. Non-US are far more left-wing than the US in general. Blame the Cold War, really. Anti-socialism spawns from a war that ended 20 years ago.
No, it is more fundamental than that. Socialism -- in the context of a top-down, government regulation/intervention -- flies in the face of the fundamental values of many (arguably most) Americans.
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On June 17 2012 02:34 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:00 Lightwip wrote:On June 16 2012 09:21 Defacer wrote:
Edit: Obama's policies are to the right of Canada's conservative 'right-wing' Prime Minister. Non-US are far more left-wing than the US in general. Blame the Cold War, really. Anti-socialism spawns from a war that ended 20 years ago. No, it is more fundamental than that. Socialism -- in the context of a top-down, government regulation/intervention -- flies in the face of the fundamental values of many (arguably most) Americans.
No it doesn't lol
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On June 17 2012 03:18 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 02:34 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 02:00 Lightwip wrote:On June 16 2012 09:21 Defacer wrote:
Edit: Obama's policies are to the right of Canada's conservative 'right-wing' Prime Minister. Non-US are far more left-wing than the US in general. Blame the Cold War, really. Anti-socialism spawns from a war that ended 20 years ago. No, it is more fundamental than that. Socialism -- in the context of a top-down, government regulation/intervention -- flies in the face of the fundamental values of many (arguably most) Americans. No it doesn't lol
Apparently you haven't spent enough time around conservatives.
Nice job telling other people why they believe what they believe, by the way.
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On June 17 2012 03:21 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 03:18 darthfoley wrote:On June 17 2012 02:34 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 02:00 Lightwip wrote:On June 16 2012 09:21 Defacer wrote:
Edit: Obama's policies are to the right of Canada's conservative 'right-wing' Prime Minister. Non-US are far more left-wing than the US in general. Blame the Cold War, really. Anti-socialism spawns from a war that ended 20 years ago. No, it is more fundamental than that. Socialism -- in the context of a top-down, government regulation/intervention -- flies in the face of the fundamental values of many (arguably most) Americans. No it doesn't lol Apparently you haven't spent enough time around conservatives. Nice job telling other people why they believe what they believe, by the way.
Americans will get behind just about any socialist program as long as it isn't tagged as socialist and as long as it doesn't harm the economy. Don't know what you're talking about.
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United States18840 Posts
On June 17 2012 03:21 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 03:18 darthfoley wrote:On June 17 2012 02:34 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 02:00 Lightwip wrote:On June 16 2012 09:21 Defacer wrote:
Edit: Obama's policies are to the right of Canada's conservative 'right-wing' Prime Minister. Non-US are far more left-wing than the US in general. Blame the Cold War, really. Anti-socialism spawns from a war that ended 20 years ago. No, it is more fundamental than that. Socialism -- in the context of a top-down, government regulation/intervention -- flies in the face of the fundamental values of many (arguably most) Americans. No it doesn't lol Apparently you haven't spent enough time around conservatives. Nice job telling other people why they believe what they believe, by the way.
Wow really? Coming from the guy who two posts back claimed that government regulation/intervention is unpopular with arguably most Americans? You repeatedly make it abundantly clear why arguing anything of material value in this thread is a useless gesture.
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On June 17 2012 03:26 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 03:21 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 03:18 darthfoley wrote:On June 17 2012 02:34 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 02:00 Lightwip wrote:On June 16 2012 09:21 Defacer wrote:
Edit: Obama's policies are to the right of Canada's conservative 'right-wing' Prime Minister. Non-US are far more left-wing than the US in general. Blame the Cold War, really. Anti-socialism spawns from a war that ended 20 years ago. No, it is more fundamental than that. Socialism -- in the context of a top-down, government regulation/intervention -- flies in the face of the fundamental values of many (arguably most) Americans. No it doesn't lol Apparently you haven't spent enough time around conservatives. Nice job telling other people why they believe what they believe, by the way. Americans will get behind just about any socialist program as long as it isn't tagged as socialist and as long as it doesn't harm the economy. Don't know what you're talking about.
You do realize the term "Republican" refers to a style of government, not a social commentary.
The core of Republican ideology is not religion or social conservatism (although lately it does seem that way), but rather the belief that government should be handled locally whenever possible, or a minimalist, bottom-up government. That's the reason people like me are able to survive in the Republican party despite being what most would deem "liberal" on social issues. The core belief of a bottom-up government trumps other beliefs, and is the main distinction between Republicans and Democrats.
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On June 17 2012 03:43 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 03:26 Risen wrote:On June 17 2012 03:21 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 03:18 darthfoley wrote:On June 17 2012 02:34 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 02:00 Lightwip wrote:On June 16 2012 09:21 Defacer wrote:
Edit: Obama's policies are to the right of Canada's conservative 'right-wing' Prime Minister. Non-US are far more left-wing than the US in general. Blame the Cold War, really. Anti-socialism spawns from a war that ended 20 years ago. No, it is more fundamental than that. Socialism -- in the context of a top-down, government regulation/intervention -- flies in the face of the fundamental values of many (arguably most) Americans. No it doesn't lol Apparently you haven't spent enough time around conservatives. Nice job telling other people why they believe what they believe, by the way. Americans will get behind just about any socialist program as long as it isn't tagged as socialist and as long as it doesn't harm the economy. Don't know what you're talking about. You do realize the term "Republican" refers to a style of government, not a social commentary. The core of Republican ideology is not religion or social conservatism (although lately it does seem that way), but rather the belief that government should be handled locally whenever possible, or a minimalist, bottom-up government. That's the reason people like me are able to survive in the Republican party despite being what most would deem "liberal" on social issues. The core belief of a bottom-up government trumps other beliefs, and is the main distinction between Republicans and Democrats.
Hahaha, I guess you haven't been paying attention then. Honestly, there are more fiscally conservative democrats than republican congressmen that want small government at this point.
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On June 17 2012 03:30 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 03:21 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 03:18 darthfoley wrote:On June 17 2012 02:34 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 02:00 Lightwip wrote:On June 16 2012 09:21 Defacer wrote:
Edit: Obama's policies are to the right of Canada's conservative 'right-wing' Prime Minister. Non-US are far more left-wing than the US in general. Blame the Cold War, really. Anti-socialism spawns from a war that ended 20 years ago. No, it is more fundamental than that. Socialism -- in the context of a top-down, government regulation/intervention -- flies in the face of the fundamental values of many (arguably most) Americans. No it doesn't lol Apparently you haven't spent enough time around conservatives. Nice job telling other people why they believe what they believe, by the way. Wow really? Coming from the guy who two posts back claimed that government regulation/intervention is unpopular with arguably most Americans? You repeatedly make it abundantly clear why arguing anything of material value in this thread is a useless gesture.
Took the words right out of my mouth
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On June 17 2012 04:13 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 03:30 farvacola wrote:On June 17 2012 03:21 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 03:18 darthfoley wrote:On June 17 2012 02:34 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 02:00 Lightwip wrote:On June 16 2012 09:21 Defacer wrote:
Edit: Obama's policies are to the right of Canada's conservative 'right-wing' Prime Minister. Non-US are far more left-wing than the US in general. Blame the Cold War, really. Anti-socialism spawns from a war that ended 20 years ago. No, it is more fundamental than that. Socialism -- in the context of a top-down, government regulation/intervention -- flies in the face of the fundamental values of many (arguably most) Americans. No it doesn't lol Apparently you haven't spent enough time around conservatives. Nice job telling other people why they believe what they believe, by the way. Wow really? Coming from the guy who two posts back claimed that government regulation/intervention is unpopular with arguably most Americans? You repeatedly make it abundantly clear why arguing anything of material value in this thread is a useless gesture. Took the words right out of my mouth
Guess who?
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On June 17 2012 04:16 k1mjee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 04:13 darthfoley wrote:On June 17 2012 03:30 farvacola wrote:On June 17 2012 03:21 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 03:18 darthfoley wrote:On June 17 2012 02:34 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 02:00 Lightwip wrote:On June 16 2012 09:21 Defacer wrote:
Edit: Obama's policies are to the right of Canada's conservative 'right-wing' Prime Minister. Non-US are far more left-wing than the US in general. Blame the Cold War, really. Anti-socialism spawns from a war that ended 20 years ago. No, it is more fundamental than that. Socialism -- in the context of a top-down, government regulation/intervention -- flies in the face of the fundamental values of many (arguably most) Americans. No it doesn't lol Apparently you haven't spent enough time around conservatives. Nice job telling other people why they believe what they believe, by the way. Wow really? Coming from the guy who two posts back claimed that government regulation/intervention is unpopular with arguably most Americans? You repeatedly make it abundantly clear why arguing anything of material value in this thread is a useless gesture. Took the words right out of my mouth Guess who?
:D
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I just look at the experience the two candidates have. Romney is a businessman and Obama is a public speaker/community organizer/lecturer. I'll take the businessman aka someone who knows how to hire, fire and manage finances.
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Don't plan on ever voting for president again because in reality the popular vote means nothing.
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On June 17 2012 03:43 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 03:26 Risen wrote:On June 17 2012 03:21 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 03:18 darthfoley wrote:On June 17 2012 02:34 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 02:00 Lightwip wrote:On June 16 2012 09:21 Defacer wrote:
Edit: Obama's policies are to the right of Canada's conservative 'right-wing' Prime Minister. Non-US are far more left-wing than the US in general. Blame the Cold War, really. Anti-socialism spawns from a war that ended 20 years ago. No, it is more fundamental than that. Socialism -- in the context of a top-down, government regulation/intervention -- flies in the face of the fundamental values of many (arguably most) Americans. No it doesn't lol Apparently you haven't spent enough time around conservatives. Nice job telling other people why they believe what they believe, by the way. Americans will get behind just about any socialist program as long as it isn't tagged as socialist and as long as it doesn't harm the economy. Don't know what you're talking about. You do realize the term "Republican" refers to a style of government, not a social commentary. The core of Republican ideology is not religion or social conservatism (although lately it does seem that way), but rather the belief that government should be handled locally whenever possible, or a minimalist, bottom-up government. That's the reason people like me are able to survive in the Republican party despite being what most would deem "liberal" on social issues. The core belief of a bottom-up government trumps other beliefs, and is the main distinction between Republicans and Democrats.
Why did you quote me? Your response has literally nothing to do with what I said.
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It never ceases to amaze me how little liberals understand of conservatives. It is even more amazing that I, as a conservative, can come in here and explain the basis for the conservative point of view, and then be told that I am wrong by a chorus of liberal fools.
Bravo, guys. You definitely know more about my own belief system than I do.
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On June 17 2012 05:59 xDaunt wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how little liberals understand of conservatives. It is even more amazing that I, as a conservative, can come in here and explain the basis for the conservative point of view, and then be told that I am wrong by a chorus of liberal fools.
Bravo, guys. You definitely know more about my own belief system than I do.
Dude, you were the one talking about what America believes. You really don't have any room to talk.
You're always decrying about 'dem darn-blasted liberals' and then when somebody points out stupid things you outrightly say you just double-down with the hating on 'them liberal folk.' I'm really not into the whole 'us vs them' mentality myself. It just seems like the people in this thread who think you're an idiot immediately get labeled as a liberal and then promptly discarded.
Not that I want you to stop. It is always hilarious to see where this goes.
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On June 17 2012 06:48 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 05:59 xDaunt wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how little liberals understand of conservatives. It is even more amazing that I, as a conservative, can come in here and explain the basis for the conservative point of view, and then be told that I am wrong by a chorus of liberal fools.
Bravo, guys. You definitely know more about my own belief system than I do. Dude, you were the one talking about what America believes. You really don't have any room to talk. You're always decrying about 'dem darn-blasted liberals' and then when somebody points out stupid things you outrightly say you just double-down with the hating on 'them liberal folk.' I'm really not into the whole 'us vs them' mentality myself. It just seems like the people in this thread who think you're an idiot immediately get labeled as a liberal and then promptly discarded. Not that I want you to stop. It is always hilarious to see where this goes.
Again, i agree with you DoubleReed
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On June 17 2012 03:43 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 03:26 Risen wrote:On June 17 2012 03:21 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 03:18 darthfoley wrote:On June 17 2012 02:34 xDaunt wrote:On June 17 2012 02:00 Lightwip wrote:On June 16 2012 09:21 Defacer wrote:
Edit: Obama's policies are to the right of Canada's conservative 'right-wing' Prime Minister. Non-US are far more left-wing than the US in general. Blame the Cold War, really. Anti-socialism spawns from a war that ended 20 years ago. No, it is more fundamental than that. Socialism -- in the context of a top-down, government regulation/intervention -- flies in the face of the fundamental values of many (arguably most) Americans. No it doesn't lol Apparently you haven't spent enough time around conservatives. Nice job telling other people why they believe what they believe, by the way. Americans will get behind just about any socialist program as long as it isn't tagged as socialist and as long as it doesn't harm the economy. Don't know what you're talking about. You do realize the term "Republican" refers to a style of government, not a social commentary. The core of Republican ideology is not religion or social conservatism (although lately it does seem that way), but rather the belief that government should be handled locally whenever possible, or a minimalist, bottom-up government. That's the reason people like me are able to survive in the Republican party despite being what most would deem "liberal" on social issues. The core belief of a bottom-up government trumps other beliefs, and is the main distinction between Republicans and Democrats.
I feel really sorry for you then. Because if you actually believe Romney is going to anything but plunge your country further into debt by cutting taxes for the rich ... while rolling back women and gay rights ... well fuck then.
Your 'core beliefs' haven't been addressed in decades.
I don't know what's tougher, being a delusion Republican or disenchanted Democrat (maybe it's the other way around).
Why I gave up being a Republican
"As a local GOP official after President Obama’s election, I had a front-row seat as it became infected by a dangerous and virulent form of political rabies. In the grip of this contagion, the Republican Party has come unhinged. Its fevered hallucinations involve threats from imaginary communists and socialists who, seemingly, lurk around every corner. Climate change - a reality recognized by every single significant scientific body and academy in the world - is a liberal conspiracy conjured up by Al Gore and other leftists who want to destroy America. Large numbers of Republicans - the notorious birthers - believe that the President was not born in the United States. Even worse, few figures in the GOP have the courage to confront them.
Republican economic policies are also indefensible.
The GOP constantly claims that its opponents are engaged in "class warfare," but this is an exercise in projection. In Republican proposals, the wealthy win, and the rest of us lose - one only has to look at Rep. Paul Ryan’s budget to see that.
As Thomas E. Mann and Norman J. Ornstein have written, "the Republican Party, has become an insurgent outlier—ideologically extreme; contemptuous of the inherited social and economic policy regime; scornful of compromise; unpersuaded by conventional understanding of facts, evidence, and science; and dismissive of the legitimacy of its political opposition." Its reckless behavior helps drive the political dysfunction crippling our nation.
In the end, it offers a dystopian vision of our future - a harsher, crueler and more merciless America starkly divided between the riders, and the ridden,"
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On June 17 2012 04:19 HowitZer wrote:
I just look at the experience the two candidates have. Romney is a businessman and Obama is a public speaker/community organizer/lecturer. I'll take the businessman aka someone who knows how to hire, fire and manage finances.
Hmn. If experience is a primary force for who you want to vote for, the logical choice is Obama. I am not sure I understand the economic arguments of the republicans anyway, so I am probably biased.
Economically Europe is austerity and shoot a white arrow after taxcuts if you are conservative (Merkel) , while socialists (Hollande) believe in some degree of stimulus. We do not have much of an ultra-liberal movement like the libertarians yet in Europe, though it is somewhat on the rise. In european optics, the republicans are ultra-liberal economically.
In the 2013 German election, you will likely see Piraten (pirate party) control who gets the nod (Wtih Linke and Merkels liberal friends in FDP fighting to even survive!). The middle-dweller and one-cause parties like Piraten are what makes european politics a lot more pragmatic in interior affairs and a lot more in love with EU and other kinds of cooperation. Things like lowering income taxes and believing you can get it back economically through the following growth is a non-sequitor given the common european economic models. Mind you: Income taxes in europe are a lot higher than in USA.
If I look at what Romney wants to do it seems majorly underfinanced (24 % lowering of projected revenue) and from an economic point unsustainable without more information on spending cuts and compensatory taxation.
http://taxpolicycenter.org/taxtopics/romney-plan.cfm
http://www.businessinsider.com/romney-tax-plan-is-more-1-percent-friendly-than-george-w-bushs-2012-6
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/national_world/2012/06/05/romney-tax-plan-would-benefit-him-and-obama.html
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On June 17 2012 06:48 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 05:59 xDaunt wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how little liberals understand of conservatives. It is even more amazing that I, as a conservative, can come in here and explain the basis for the conservative point of view, and then be told that I am wrong by a chorus of liberal fools.
Bravo, guys. You definitely know more about my own belief system than I do. Dude, you were the one talking about what America believes. You really don't have any room to talk. You're always decrying about 'dem darn-blasted liberals' and then when somebody points out stupid things you outrightly say you just double-down with the hating on 'them liberal folk.' I'm really not into the whole 'us vs them' mentality myself. It just seems like the people in this thread who think you're an idiot immediately get labeled as a liberal and then promptly discarded. Not that I want you to stop. It is always hilarious to see where this goes.
Another sterling example of someone not bothering to read what I said.
I was not talking about what "America" believes (meaning all Americans as you are implying), I explicitly said "many Americans" and added in parentheses "arguably most" Americans. When 40+% of Americans identify themselves as conservative, I think using the terminology that I used is perfectly fair and appropriate.
And for the record, the vast majority of people who argue that things that I say are "stupid" unsurprisingly happen to be liberal. I don't think that there's any dispute that the offenders in this particular instance (including you) are liberal.
If people want to flame me for things that I say, that's their business. But if they say something ridiculous or stupid in doing so (like you and the other people in the posts above on this page), I am going to point it out. And sorry, but liberals telling me that I don't know what conservatives believe is just too stupid to ignore.
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United States18840 Posts
On June 17 2012 08:42 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 06:48 DoubleReed wrote:On June 17 2012 05:59 xDaunt wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how little liberals understand of conservatives. It is even more amazing that I, as a conservative, can come in here and explain the basis for the conservative point of view, and then be told that I am wrong by a chorus of liberal fools.
Bravo, guys. You definitely know more about my own belief system than I do. Dude, you were the one talking about what America believes. You really don't have any room to talk. You're always decrying about 'dem darn-blasted liberals' and then when somebody points out stupid things you outrightly say you just double-down with the hating on 'them liberal folk.' I'm really not into the whole 'us vs them' mentality myself. It just seems like the people in this thread who think you're an idiot immediately get labeled as a liberal and then promptly discarded. Not that I want you to stop. It is always hilarious to see where this goes. Another sterling example of someone not bothering to read what I said. I was not talking about what "America" believes (meaning all Americans as you are implying), I explicitly said "many Americans" and added in parentheses "arguably most" Americans. When 40+% of Americans identify themselves as conservative, I think using the terminology that I used is perfectly fair and appropriate. And for the record, the vast majority of people who argue that things that I say are "stupid" unsurprisingly happen to be liberal. I don't think that there's any dispute that the offenders in this particular instance (including you) are liberal. If people want to flame me for things that I say, that's their business. But if they say something ridiculous or stupid in doing so (like you and the other people in the posts above on this page), I am going to point it out. And sorry, but liberals telling me that I don't know what conservatives believe is just too stupid to ignore.
Is a belief in the governments responsibility to legislate moral platforms a conservative idea? (I'm talking abortion, gay marriage, issues of that sort). Naturally, the answer is no. And yet, I can guarantee you that within that mysterious 40%+ number you pulled out of a hat many many respondents believe that the government ought to ban gay marriage, overturn Roe v. Wade, and legislate a ban of the teaching of evolution in schools (tsk tsk Tennessee). What I'm getting at here is that your blanket declaration of right-leaning citizens as conservative is misleading and no doubt untrue, in that a remarkable number of people have no idea what the terms "liberal" and "conservative" truly mean.
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EPT
