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Why do people in the US vote? - Page 15

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goswser
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3548 Posts
March 01 2012 22:55 GMT
#281
The time investment of researching the candidates and casting my vote isn't worth the value I feel my vote has. Almost never is the poll decided by a single vote, so my individual vote will almost never count, and I value my time too much to waste it on a vote that probably will not matter at all.
say you were born into a jungle indian tribe where food was scarce...would you run around from teepee to teepee stealing meat scraps after a day lazying around doing nothing except warming urself by a fire that you didn't even make yourself? -rekrul
stokes17
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1411 Posts
March 01 2012 22:56 GMT
#282
On March 02 2012 07:49 Gaga wrote:
In our democracy we can choose the guy who sings the song.

But we cannot change the song.


read that somewhere on a Demo sing ... and i think its quite true. Our Politicians whoever comes to the top so we the people can choose is already a player in the system or he wouldn't have risen there. So he will play in the system and you can bet will not touch or even be able to see it's flaws.

if your not a system player you are unelecetable. See Ron Paul the only one of the politicians in the US who challenges the establishment and dogmas of our time.

Eh, that is a true statement in the short term (4 years can't overtly change a 200 year old nation of 300 million people) But the Political landscape of America has changed greatly from even 20 years ago.

In 5-6 years when Obamacare is fully implemented (just assume it will be so i can make my point?) America will be quite different than how it was when he first took office. I would say the song has changed (no state funded health insurance--> state funded health insurance).

The founders went out of their way to make our government move slowly. And lobbying has only slowed the process further. BUT, there still is a process, a slow, aggravating, infuriating, petty, messy, complex process. And the process has and will continue to lead to progress.
raf3776
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1904 Posts
March 01 2012 22:58 GMT
#283
Honestly id rather have people not vote than vote blindly. Not many people my age (college) know anything about politics. A few act like they know something about the politicians but are just saying rumors and big news stories. A bunch of people voting just to vote on someone is worse than not voting. in my opinion at least
WWJD (What Would Jaedong Do)
Serthius
Profile Joined December 2010
Samoa226 Posts
March 01 2012 23:03 GMT
#284
If you don't vote, you don't get to moan about how your vote doesn't count.
sc2superfan101
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
3583 Posts
March 01 2012 23:04 GMT
#285
On March 02 2012 07:37 Aserrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2012 07:23 sc2superfan101 wrote:

Still, some votes count more than others. That isn't democracy, no matter how hard you try to work your words around it (bis). It isn't equality either. It's just half-assing things.

in your system the votes of the larger states would, in practice, "count more" than those of the small states. i dont believe that is fair.

No they don't, I've already explained it, and your argument is simply 'oh but campaigns!'. It's ridiculous.

How dense can you be?

my argument has nothing to do with campaigns whatsoever, other than the fact that campaigns would be a symptom of the problem. just as those polticians and candidates would not have to campaign in or for those states and voters, they would also not have to lead and legislate for those voters and states. they would be rewarded for NOT legislating in favor of those states. even further, they would be rewarded for legislating in favor of the large states to the exclusion of the smaller states. take campigns out of it and the meat of the argument is still there.

i am quite muscular, so i would say pretty dense.
My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
StayPhrosty
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada406 Posts
March 01 2012 23:06 GMT
#286
honestly i hear people say all the time that they dont vote because one vote doesnt matter. this simply isnt true. every vote matters, and every person with a political oppinion and some friends matters. if you vote democrat, and you talk with your coworkers at lunch and then they vote democrat, and you talk with your family and they vote democrat, and all of them do the same, then you just made a big difference.
To be is to do-Socrates To do is to be-Sartre Do Be Do Be Do-Sinatra
stokes17
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1411 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-01 23:12:03
March 01 2012 23:11 GMT
#287
On March 02 2012 07:51 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2012 07:44 stokes17 wrote:
On March 02 2012 07:06 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
On March 02 2012 07:03 stokes17 wrote:
On March 02 2012 06:59 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
On March 02 2012 06:53 stokes17 wrote:
On March 02 2012 06:46 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
On March 02 2012 06:40 stokes17 wrote:
On March 02 2012 06:35 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
On March 02 2012 06:28 stokes17 wrote:
[quote]

You realize most campaign contributions are small donors. If you want to talk lobbying and policy thats for another thread... until citizens united, the situation you're describing is not terribly accurate for election campaign contributions.

As for your general point yes people and institutions spend money on there interests. But, let me give you an example:

I work in a Neurophysiology research lab that studies timing in rats (don't ask it'll take a year to explain ) Our goal is to be published in a leading national journal. To do that we needed a large grant to fund our research. To get a grant we need to demonstrate to the grant organization (the national health institute in this case) that our research will benefit them in some way. Obviously we chose the NHI because we felt our views aligned, and they agreed and gave us 250k

Now would you like to argue that Money and private interests are dictating psychological research to the point that the whole research system is broken? I would not

If you substitute journal for Senate seat, and NHI with the Teamsters. Then ... ta da.

My point is that as a campaigner, I would seek out supports who I think would agree with my guy. Trying to mold your guy into whoever your potential supporter wants will screw you (Romney is learning this).

I guarantee there is someone with influence who's agenda lines up with yours.

If you can give me an example where someone is elected without effort (which is money) in any democratic nation, I'd be very interested


Campaign contributions is a controversial and shady aspect of US politics. Laws exist to make campaign contributions small, but we both know there are many loopholes that are used to get around them.

I don't think the analogy is quite as cut and dry. I also work for a lab that applies for grants and funding from the government and various organizations. The difference between our labs and US policy making is where that money goes.

Money for research = good.

Money used to elect officials who will pass policies that will make them more money = bad.

dood either have a thread on elections or have a thread on lobbying in the policy making process

its impossible to discuss both simultaneously

And no there are not tons of loopholes (b4 citizens united), some, but not as rampant as you are implying. Every candidate before Obama took public funding for his presidential campaign.


Man, I'm just going where the flow takes me

Yes, every candidate takes money, which is kind of my point. Their election depends on their funding. They have to answer to the wealthy who are paying them. In return for their funding, whoever gave them the money will influence their policies in ways which serve the wealthy.

you're going in circles,

the majority of funding comes from small donors. Your cynical view of lobbying (while accurate) doesn't apply to campaign finance (not counting citizens united).

Yes many large donors currently spend 10-50K dollars to go to a special Obama Event and see him eat dinner and maybe shake his hand. Those people have 0 influence in policy making.


I don't see where I'm being circular. Events like that are exactly what I'm talking about. Candidates get their money from the super-wealthy. In turn, the super-wealthy have their investment pay off when candidate is elected, and passes policy that is favorable to those who gave them money.




yea that's a baseless claim. Me paying my 50k to shake Obama's hand buys me no influence. I am just showing my support making an effort in the best way i can. (anyone how has 50k lying around is probably too busy to on the ground campaign) You really think 50k gets me Obama's ear? 50k puts him in my pocket? NO, that's why he takes 50k from 100 people. Those people get a handshake, a story, and a fulfilled sense of civic duty. They do not get to secretly run the country.

Lobbyists have influence for a number of reasons, one of which is money. But for the hundredth time, campaign contributions=/=lobbying


I don't think its baseless. If you're giving 50k to Obama, its because his policies coincide with yours, and you benefit from them. If his policies were contrary to what I wanted, wtf would I be doing giving him 50k?

Are really trying to say that donating money to someone you support is the same as buying influence? Get a clue

Once I give his people my check I'm done. I don't get to call Obama or talk to anyone in his administration over policy matters. By donating to a campaign I am not lobbying. If a lobbyist tried to gain influence that way, he would be broke and out of a job.

So for the last time, the vast majority of donations are under 200 dollars. Even 5 and 6 figure donations buy you absolutely 0 influence. Contributing to a campaign is really not at all the same as lobbying. And money is not the biggest issue with US politics

Grid locking lobbyist behavior and the 24 hour news cycle are the major issues.

To give an example of effective lobbying behavior, since you seriously don't get it:
Tax Free America (featured on the daily show this week in an awesome bit by samantha bee) is a Power Player in DC lobbying. They have so much power because they have convinced hundreds (not all still serving) congressmen/women to sign a pledge to not raise taxes. This 1 sheet of paper puts a congressperson in your pocket 100x more effectively than any amount of money you could donate to their campaign, because now if they do raise taxes you have a piece of paper making them a liar.

You tell me what's more effective- "Congressman X took 70K of my dollars at a fund raiser with 100 other people but then he didn't do what i asked him to when i shook his hand for 5 seconds. Congressman X lied to me" OR "Congressman X make an explicit pledge to the American People, a Pledge that over 300 congressman have made, and he is the first out of over 300 congressman to go back on HIS WORD to the American people. Congressman X is a bold faced liar who will say and sign whatever it takes to get into office."

Like I'm sorry, If you think private individuals who made large campaign contributions have any influence in national politics, you're wrong. And Corporations until citizens united (X__X) were extremely limited in how they could influence campaigns.


That is exactly NOT what I'm saying. Thank you for interpreting my words carefully.

I'll say it again. Giving Obama 50k does not buy me influence with him. But, I'm giving him 50k because his policies coincide with mine. Policies he makes = good for me. So my 50k donation is an investment, and is a helluva lot more important to his re-election than my vote.

Like, I'm sorry, but I definitely DO think that private individuals who make large campaign contributions have influence in national politics.

If you're going to give me shit about 'not having a clue', please take the time to read what I write carefully and not put words in my mouth. At this point, like all internet forums, I can see we've probably crossed into the realm of not having a dialogue but will probably be hurling insults back and forth shortly.


Yea you still aren't getting it:

Supporting someone you believe in with money is the same as supporting him with effort eg campaigning for him. In no way does this give you influence over that politician. If you donate to a local fundraiser for X cause, once you donate that money you have no influence on how it used or appropriated. And you certainly have no influence over the direction of the charity. That is all that is occurring in individual campaign contributions.

You say in your 1st paragraph donating money buys you no influence, then in the 2nd you say people who donate money have influence. So idn why you attacking my interpretation of your writing. You just aren't making good sense.

Donating money to a campaign, working on a campaign(donating time), and voting(donating a tiny amount of time) are all ways to support a candidate. The more effort (which is money) you put in is just that... effort you've put in. If you donated a ton of money, you get to shake the candidates hand and write down that you organized a campaign function at your home or whatever. If you worked 10000 hours, maybe you get a better job if your guy wins. if you vote and your guy wins, maybe the nation tilts slightly more towards your views. NONE OF THIS IS LOBBYING. None of this will give you influence over an administration's policy making. Unless your campaign efforts literally get you a cabinet position, after the campaign is over you have no influence on the president.

70k does not buy you a telephone line into the white house, you are pretty crazy if you think otherwise.

If you really want to disagree with me on this; find me a lobbyist who goes about donating 5 and 6 figures to campaigns as a way to gain influence(Not donations to the parties as a whole. Because that's not what you are claiming) If you are this convinced that's how it goes down, find me an example. As recent as the last presidential election all contributions of that size had to be over the table, so give me proof that this behavior occurs. I already gave you an example of how a real lobbyist operates.

I'm sure you are an intelligent individual, but it really comes across that you don't follow or know a whole hell of a lot about campaign finance. I understand you are frustrated with American Politics, and so am I, but money is not the problem (beside citizens united). Its the news media and the lobbyists, not the campaign contributors.



EDIT: I need to go out to dinner so I can't continue to post in here for a few hours. You can totally PM if you want to talk some more. Cause I do agree with you that US politics suck and has HUGE issues, you just are attacking the wrong guys.
radscorpion9
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Canada2252 Posts
March 01 2012 23:11 GMT
#288
Well, at least in Canada, I know that their are some ridings where elections for a member of parliament can be very close. Like when the Liberal and Conservative parties both have a member who has near the same number of ballots cast; the difference can be a small as 10 votes. I think it might be a good idea to vote, just because on the off chance that that sort of situation occurs in your riding (or the US equivalent, assuming its possible to have these tight direct democracy-like outcomes) it can make a difference.

But if you take that situation to be rare...then there is a point about the uselessness of voting in general. You would really need to be part of a block of fellow students/adults to feel like your vote is making a meaningful difference. But even then I suspect we would be a fairly small segment of the population, and it would require a lot of work to do. Fundamentally...my reasons for either voting with a sense of apathy, or not voting entirely, is just because I don't want to do all that work to truly make a difference.

I think I will continue to vote personally. Because it takes so little time, its fun to get out and do something official; and it might have an impact for those rare cases. If it were far away though I might not go through the hassle.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-01 23:14:02
March 01 2012 23:11 GMT
#289
1916 - Woodrow Wilson defeated his opponent by less than one vote per precinct in a single state.

1923 - One vote gave Adolf Hitler leadership of the Nazi party and eventual control of Germany.

1941 - One vote defeated the bill to kill the draft law, three months before Pearl Harbor.

1948 - Lyndon B. Johnson became a U.S. senator by a one vote margin.

1960 - In presidential election, one additional vote per precinct in Illinois, Missouri, New Jersey and Texas would have put Richard M. Nixon in office eight years earlier.

1982 - In Illinois, Governor Jim Thompson defeated Adlai Stevenson by less than 1/2 a vote per precinct.


http://www.new-horizons.org/elgvot.html

more recently: bush vs gore

The importance of individual votes can be best demonstrated during the past Presidential Election in Florida. Florida was the key to the entire election; neither candidate could claim victory without its 25 electoral votes. The margin of victory in Florida was even smaller than it was nationally. According to election results posted on the ABC News website, out of 5,958,147 votes cast, 2,910,457 went for George W. Bush and 2,910,029 went for Al Gore (ABC News, 2000). The difference here is only 428, or about .00718% of all votes cast in the state. Ultimately because both candidates needed Florida's electoral votes, the Presidency of the United States was decided by about 500 individuals in Florida. 500 people is such a small margin considering over 100 million people cast ballots. For the moment disregarding the legal wrangling over recounts, undervotes, and voter discrimination claims, never before has a presidential election been decided by such a small margin. If only 500 people, in a state of well over 15 million, changed their vote or did not vote at all, the outcome of the election would have been different.
Reaper9
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1724 Posts
March 01 2012 23:11 GMT
#290
I don't vote. I want to exercise my power to vote, but I look at the candidates, and see no-one worth voting for. No, the person doesn't have to cater to every one of my opinions. But I cannot stand those who bid for power, which is pretty much all of the candidates. They are selfish before they are self-sacrificing.
I post only when my brain works.
yoshi_yoshi
Profile Joined January 2010
United States440 Posts
March 01 2012 23:12 GMT
#291
On March 02 2012 07:58 raf3776 wrote:
Honestly id rather have people not vote than vote blindly. Not many people my age (college) know anything about politics. A few act like they know something about the politicians but are just saying rumors and big news stories. A bunch of people voting just to vote on someone is worse than not voting. in my opinion at least


I feel the complete opposite about people my age (20s). If our generation shows low voting turnout (which it does), then politicians won't give a crap about us.

Your vote goes beyond the person or issue you are directly weighing in on. You are also saying that you want to be counted, and a politician will know that if they screw you over then you are prepared to vote the other way. Screwing over a group that has low voter turnout is less risky.
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
March 01 2012 23:13 GMT
#292
whats the point of voting if the popular vote does not decide anything?
Question.?
EdouarKiLL
Profile Joined October 2011
Russian Federation112 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-01 23:15:38
March 01 2012 23:13 GMT
#293
This is a nice sum up of how the world sees the foreign policy of the United States (its french "caricature") :

USA

I think nowaydays democracy means nothing =)
Trololo
NeMeSiS3
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Canada2972 Posts
March 01 2012 23:14 GMT
#294
On March 02 2012 03:35 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2012 03:30 philosophize wrote:
like it or not that's the system in place. it's more or less all you get. i know the urge to opt out is powerful, and feeling of powerlessness/hopelessness make participating the last thing you want to do...but sometimes what you want or feel like doing and what the best thing to do actually is are incongruent...

i think that if you actually want to change anything about how fucked up the system is, doing nothing...well, does nothing.


True, what opting out does nothing.

But what can I realistically do?

-Vote: We can argue about this one, but I feel pretty strongly that my vote either doesn't matter, or at best, has an infinitesimal effect.

-Protest: Well, using the African-American civil rights movement as an example, if I protest in a lot of different ways, and gather millions of other people, for 300 years, then I have a shot.

-Work in politics: This is speculative, but I'd imagine that since I am poor and have no connections, I would never, ever be in a position to make any impact on anything.


How was the African American civil rights movement 300 years long? bad history is bad
FoTG fighting!
Sprouter
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1724 Posts
March 01 2012 23:15 GMT
#295
The 2004 Pres. elections were decided by ~13000 votes that weren't counted. Don't give me that voting doesn't matter bullshit.
agitprop
Profile Joined April 2011
United States37 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-01 23:19:08
March 01 2012 23:16 GMT
#296
On March 02 2012 02:47 mynameisgreat11 wrote:
Only considering national elections. President, senator, etc.

I live in the USA, and I have never voted, though I've been of age for the last three presidential elections. At first it was because I lived in a state which has always been completely lopsided for one party. I felt like my vote didn't matter, which I realize is a point that many will argue. But, fu, the fact is that my state would elect republicans for national offices no matter what, period.

In the past few years, however, my reasons have changed a bit. Now I realize that I just have no faith in the electoral system. As much as I hate sounding like a long-boarding, clove-smoking,, hipster douche, I feel like the fact of the matter is that the wealthy elite of the country really do control everything. Business moguls and celebrities become senators, governors, and president. Our laws, regulations, and taxes are thought up and created by people who are wealthy and powerful. They've proven time and time again that they're willing to use their position to advance their own ends.

And of course, lobbyists. Whatever company, group, or individual has the most money can trade that cash in for political influence. Oil companies wine, dine, and bribe for the rights to drill in previously protected environmental areas. Religions collect hundreds of billions annually, tax-free mind you, and then turn around and pump that money right back into congress to support bills that they find morally correct.

I know that this is nothing new. Classes have existed since the beginning of civilization. What's infuriating is that Democracy is touted as a government of the people, where decisions and policies are made based on the will of the general public.

It's not. That's why I don't vote.

Is this a blog?


The business moguls, the wealthy elite, senator celebrities, lobbyists, and the Man himself got on a conference call with me and asked me to thank you for not voting. They really appreciate the apathy they've managed to engender in you and hope you take it to your grave.

In my lifetime, statesmen have been elected. Would they have been if voters were apathetic? Our government does positive things, surely. Why? Exceptionally bad or even slightly incompetent politicians have not been reelected. Especially at the local level.

Also, stopping by the voting booth on the way to work or school has been an insanely effortless experience for me and I would do it even if I had to wait in line, but the truth is, the more I vote (even in a state where who I vote for will almost certainly not get elected) the more money is eventually put into the hands of those I'm voting for. Losing an election sucks, but not as badly as losing it by an insane margin. Third party votes count, too, as candidates from major parties adopt issues from third parties to bring in more votes.

I also believe it is my civic duty to vote. Duty is not a popular term anymore, I wish it returned to being one.

I agree with some of the underlying implications of your post, our system has flaws and might even be seriously flawed, but I live in it, and I am willing to put forth some effort in the name of civic duty to improve it.
It is not enough that I succeed, others must fail.
UmiNotsuki
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States633 Posts
March 01 2012 23:18 GMT
#297
I personally have no intention to vote, either. My vote doesn't matter, and frankly I don't care ENOUGH about any issues to go out and waste my time at the ballet machine. I'd have to care a lot to do it, of course.
UmiNotsuki.111 (NA), UNTReborn.932 (EU), UmiNotsuki (iCCup) -- You see that text I wrote above this? I'll betcha $5 that you disagree :D
deathly rat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United Kingdom911 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-01 23:24:25
March 01 2012 23:18 GMT
#298
To not vote because 1 vote seems irrelevant is a flawed logic. You must not think of yourself as an individual, but as a representative of the group of people that share your values and your opinions. It is absolutely imperetive that everyone who can vote does vote, so that the overall wishes of the population are represented.

Also, just because you voted for someone who didn't end up winning the election, it doesn't mean that the vote wasn't counted. How people vote is looked at by the political parties, and if they see that they are losing ground to their rivals, this will cause them to rethink their strategies and ideas.

Lastly, i really want you to realise that yours and my democracy is extremely closely linked to our personal freedom. The system of accountability that is inherent to democracy means that people in authority always have someone higher to answer to, and the ultimate highest people who the police and the army and everyone else is answerable to is the politicians, and they are accountable to the public.

In this way, it doesn't matter who you vote for, or who wins (as long as they are moderate), it is the perpetual ongoing status of our democracy that is most important. Is it a healthy democracy which is working to ensure that everyone is accountable and that ordinary people are free to do what they want without interference from people in power, or is it a democracy which has no legitimacy, and therefore completely undermines those politicians powers over the civil service and the military/police. THIS is why you should vote, not to get your own way in the election, but to support the system that is democracy.
No logo (logo)
winter017
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States103 Posts
March 01 2012 23:19 GMT
#299
Explain to me how becoming engaged in my local political processes will prevent lobbyists from having a strong influence in Washington.


because if you are engaged in the party at the local level you can put forward primary challenges, you can raise your own candidates through the process who think the same way you do. seems like a good way to reduce the influence of lobbyists when the candidates don't think they should take money from them, and might possibly introduce legislation that would curb that process or vote for supreme court justices who would reverse things like citizens united etc. but if you aren't involved in the processes that even selects the candidates you ultimately vote for in the general election it shows a level of apathy which is creating the problem in the first place.


Soulstice
Profile Joined December 2011
United States288 Posts
March 01 2012 23:19 GMT
#300
To get the illusion that their voice is heard.
Living the liefe
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