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To keep this thread open for discussion, please READ THIS BEFORE POSTING:The following types of posts are banworthy: - Nation bashing. - Significantly disrespectful posts toward any of the parties involved. Please familiarize yourself with some of the basics on the use of force in the United States before posting in this thread. If you feel the need to post a reaction to the news, post a comment on the youtube video. Don't bring it here. This thread is for a discussion on the topic, and your post better have substance to it. Low content posts will be met with moderator action. Here is a good post by someone with experience in escalation of force training. Read that too. This post might change your opinion of in the incident. |
On January 25 2012 09:54 DR.Ham wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 09:45 DenSkumle wrote:
Here in Norway cops don't carry guns, so this type of thing could never. People seems to forget that violence begets violence. I agree with your sentiments, but there are a hell of a lot more guns in the general population in the US than in most other countries. I really just don't think it's an option for their police to not carry guns any more. It works for other countries though, and is the more ideal situation imo.
i think you hit that situation pretty well on the head. its a different situation completely, so it doesnt require quite the extremeties that being a policeman in the US would.
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i wouldnt be surprised if that was more bullets fired than the whole german police force does in an average month. this cop was either traumatized from an similar engagement which went really wrong or is a fucking crazyman.
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Jeez thats not cool =(
Kinda uncalled for too shoot him like 10 times.. I know it isnt easy in that situation, but jesus christ arent they trained for that shit?
edit: nvm rewatched the video and it seems "kind of" justified
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On January 25 2012 10:00 Corvi wrote:
i wouldnt be surprised if that was more bullets fired than the whole german police force does in an average month. this cop was either traumatized from an similar engagement which went really wrong or is a fucking crazyman.
or doing what he was trained to do.
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On January 25 2012 09:56 GhandiEAGLE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 05:18 iNcontroL wrote:
excessive? Police are supposed to shoot to kill.. it isn't like he reloaded and unloaded on the guy again. If a cop EVER shoots it's not to stop or slow down someone or something.. it's to kill him. Where is the merit that mentality though? Cops are meant to shoot to kill? Why did he have to die? Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't one bullet to the leg done the same job?
No, you can't just shoot people in the leg. They policeman was using his pistol with one hand, had a dog going berserk, and he was in a stressful situation. Believe it or not, pistols aren't easy to aim (even with a good posture and concentration), and the policemen aren't paid well enough to spend days training their marksman skills to be able to shoot people in the leg like it is a video game.
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On January 25 2012 09:59 GhandiEAGLE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 09:48 stokes17 wrote:On January 25 2012 09:45 plogamer wrote:On January 25 2012 09:40 stokes17 wrote:On January 25 2012 09:30 plogamer wrote:On January 25 2012 09:27 Geiko wrote:On January 25 2012 09:25 plogamer wrote:On January 25 2012 09:21 dAPhREAk wrote:On January 25 2012 09:20 plogamer wrote:On January 25 2012 09:18 stokes17 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 25 2012 08:33 Nyxisto wrote:
I dont think the situation, as we can see it in the video is were it went wrong. What i absolutely do not understand is the police behaviour in the first place, and i would like if someone who maybe is a policeman or knows what the official routine is could give a little insight, so my question is:
Why do they "lure" him into this situationthe first place. Because they seem to be well prepared they seem to know that the guy will move out through the front door. Why do they stand so close, and why do they talk to him from behind?
I think the fact that he didnt see the policemen in the first place really provokes such a situation, especially if you are on drugs or in a place where attacking someone from behind is a common thing?(Which this area seems to be, at least that was mentioned in some posts).
I think if they would just have stood away they could have avoided the whole thing. If you stand away he can't attack you with a melee weapon, if he draws a gun you can still shoot, and if he tries to run you can obiously chase him.
Also: After watching the video again i noticed that the guy actually pulled earphones out. So he possibly didnt even here what the policemen told him. So just imagine you walk out of a door, hear music, you hear something, turn around , see a gun, what are you going to do? Actually after noticing that i think the police behaviour was very very bad and risky and completely avoidable.
You have to be kidding me, those weren't earphones that was a taser........... Looks totally legit to me, that guy was literally mid swing on his partner, The officer shot till the threat was neutralized, what did that guy expect to happen? The officer continued to fire after the suspect was on the ground. The number of shots discharged exceeded what would be reasonablly necessary in this situation. dont spread false information. he was still standing during the entire time shots were fired. So.. 5 shots facing the officers, 5 shots on the back. The man was clearly falling, if not fallen, when the officer continues to fire. There is no argument to be had, you can't keep shooting someone who clearly is no longer a threat. This isn't Rambo you know. So what happens if the guy is wearing a kevlar vest and has a gun in his pocket ? "What if" is not a legal defense, simply because it can be abused so excessively. you clearly know nothing of the legality of the situation. After the initial shots were fired the suspect was still a threat, so a second round of shots were fired. There was absolutely no excessive force used; they escalated from verbal force to less than lethal force to deadly force and the suspect continually refused to surrender, he was literally swinging at the cop. The officers responded exactly as they were trained to. So a person armed with a crowbar, with 5 bullets in his body, is still a threat. Apparently! He was clearly still standing, he just tried swinging at an officer and was still standing. The officer did exactly what he was suppose to do, as soon as the suspect fell down and stopped being a threat, not another shot was fired. No, he charged at the cop, who shot him five times. After he was on the ground, with 5 bullets in his chest, the cop shot him 5 more times.
I encourage you to watch the video more closely. If you watch the video more closely the suspect was still standing after the first 5 bullets. He had spun so his back was facing the officers but he was still standing when the next 5 bullets came in from the other officer. After he was on the ground no other shots were fired.
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Hell, if a guy lashed out at me like that, I would shoot him as many times as I thought I needed to. To those of you who are deciding that the police can magically shoot anyone anywhere or use magic judo to disarm a suspect, I ask: could you? If the answer is no, by all means let yourself be beaten.
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On January 25 2012 10:01 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 10:00 Corvi wrote:
i wouldnt be surprised if that was more bullets fired than the whole german police force does in an average month. this cop was either traumatized from an similar engagement which went really wrong or is a fucking crazyman. or doing what he was trained to do.
10 rounds into a normal sized male is normal? You're giving the cops a lot of leeway, after the first round of shots you could see the person stumbling backwards anyways.
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On January 25 2012 09:56 GhandiEAGLE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 05:18 iNcontroL wrote:
excessive? Police are supposed to shoot to kill.. it isn't like he reloaded and unloaded on the guy again. If a cop EVER shoots it's not to stop or slow down someone or something.. it's to kill him. Where is the merit that mentality though? Cops are meant to shoot to kill? Why did he have to die? Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't one bullet to the leg done the same job? The man actually hurt nobody, and while he definitely should have gone to jail, ten bullets to the chest seems extremely excessive. And no, he didn't reload, but he stopped, and when the man fell on the ground again, he rattled off 5 MORE SHOTS. TEN shots in total. Whether he cop is shooting to kill or not is not the point here. The point is he shot a man unnecessarily 5 times, and then proceeded to shoot him again 5 more times when he was already down. If he was shooting to kill, then that is even worse, as the cop had other, more humane and effective options at his disposal. The criminal harmed nobody physically, and the cop killed him. Even though the criminal looked like he might do physical harm at the end, that is no excuse to take his life.
They're meant to stop the threat if their life is in danger. According to the video, an officer's life was indeed in danger.
And really, do they have to wait before he hurts someone before they act? With that weapon that would easily be death if it connects in the right spot.
They tried the tazer, it didn't work, try watching the video.
Shooting in the leg is not realistic. What if they miss? Then there's stray/ricocheted bullets. What if those bullets kill bystanders/fellow officers?
If the suspect wields a deadly weapon and has shown the intent to attack an armed officer, that's perfectly reasonable to take his life.
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On January 25 2012 10:03 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 10:01 dAPhREAk wrote:On January 25 2012 10:00 Corvi wrote:
i wouldnt be surprised if that was more bullets fired than the whole german police force does in an average month. this cop was either traumatized from an similar engagement which went really wrong or is a fucking crazyman. or doing what he was trained to do. 10 rounds into a normal sized male is normal? You're giving the cops a lot of leeway.
the guy was still standing after 5 rounds. you want the cops to just wait and see if he pulls out a pistol or not?
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On January 25 2012 09:56 GhandiEAGLE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 05:18 iNcontroL wrote:
excessive? Police are supposed to shoot to kill.. it isn't like he reloaded and unloaded on the guy again. If a cop EVER shoots it's not to stop or slow down someone or something.. it's to kill him. Where is the merit that mentality though? Cops are meant to shoot to kill? Why did he have to die? Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't one bullet to the leg done the same job? The man actually hurt nobody, and while he definitely should have gone to jail, ten bullets to the chest seems extremely excessive. And no, he didn't reload, but he stopped, and when the man fell on the ground again, he rattled off 5 MORE SHOTS. TEN shots in total. Whether he cop is shooting to kill or not is not the point here. The point is he shot a man unnecessarily 5 times, and then proceeded to shoot him again 5 more times when he was already down. If he was shooting to kill, then that is even worse, as the cop had other, more humane and effective options at his disposal. The criminal harmed nobody physically, and the cop killed him. Even though the criminal looked like he might do physical harm at the end, that is no excuse to take his life.
You've clearly never shot a gun. Cops aren't superheros and shooting someone in a leg during a split second decision is basically impossible. There is no reason to take such a risk when you're risking the well being of the innocent in exchange for the well being of the initiator of force. It didn't look like he was about to do harm, he was clearly attempting to do harm and potentially could have killed the officer.
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On January 25 2012 10:05 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 10:03 Serpico wrote:On January 25 2012 10:01 dAPhREAk wrote:On January 25 2012 10:00 Corvi wrote:
i wouldnt be surprised if that was more bullets fired than the whole german police force does in an average month. this cop was either traumatized from an similar engagement which went really wrong or is a fucking crazyman. or doing what he was trained to do. 10 rounds into a normal sized male is normal? You're giving the cops a lot of leeway. the guy was still standing after 5 rounds. you want the cops to just wait and see if he pulls out a pistol or not?
Uhh, define still, because you're way off. If he had a pistol I doubt he'd swing that around and even then you can easily handcuff someone who's bleeding to death.
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I don't know a whole lot about this, but I was always under the impression that if a gun is fired, it's to kill whoever it's pointed at. There's no middle ground, 'flesh wound' kinds of things don't really exist. Guns are designed to kill, and I would guess that whether the officer had fired one shot or ten the end result would have been the same. I doubt he was intending to fire that many times, but then, he probably was very bloody scared too.
Maybe an ambulance might have saved him from one shot, maybe not.
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EDIT: accidentally posted new one instead of editing this one. Whoops.
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From 0:45 to 0:48, 10 shots were fired in three seconds. There was no indication that the suspect was armed with anything other than a crowbar.
/edit
One would think that 5 shots were enough. Even if the guy is barely standing, he was clearly in retreat and not an immediate threat.
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On January 25 2012 09:45 DenSkumle wrote:
Here in Norway cops don't carry guns, so this type of thing could never. People seems to forget that violence begets violence.
I'm assuming then that in Norway you don't have thugs brandishing lethal melee weapons in public?
If the cop didn't have a gun, and the guy took a swing at him, how exactly would he have defended himself? Gone Chuck Norris and rip the crowbar out of his hand like the people in this thread are suggesting?
No, sorry, this is real life. If there is even a 1% chance that the guy is actually trying to kill you when he comes at you with a crowbar, you take him down.
Trust me, L.A. will be just fine without this piece of shit.
EDIT: And to the guy above me, you assume that since he is brandishing a deadly weapon, he may have more concealed on his person. If you kneecap him he's still completely capable of pulling out a pistol and getting a few shots off before you take him down.
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On January 25 2012 10:07 plogamer wrote:
From 0:45 to 0:48, 10 shots were fired in three seconds. There was no indication that the suspect was armed with anything other than a crowbar.
Wouldn't that be the point if the weapon is hidden?
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I would like to say, if someone charged at me with some kind of weapon and deadly intent, and I had a gun, I wouldn't stop shooting until I was sure my life was no longer in danger.
Also, I don't think there is an excuse for anyone to approach a police officer with a weapon. The guy clearly had a death wish, or was under the influence of some drugs.
I do however believe that non-lethal weapons need to be developped for this particular purpose (like beanbag shotguns).
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On January 25 2012 10:06 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 10:05 Whole wrote:On January 25 2012 10:03 Serpico wrote:On January 25 2012 10:01 dAPhREAk wrote:On January 25 2012 10:00 Corvi wrote:
i wouldnt be surprised if that was more bullets fired than the whole german police force does in an average month. this cop was either traumatized from an similar engagement which went really wrong or is a fucking crazyman. or doing what he was trained to do. 10 rounds into a normal sized male is normal? You're giving the cops a lot of leeway. the guy was still standing after 5 rounds. you want the cops to just wait and see if he pulls out a pistol or not? Uhh, define still, because you're way off. If he had a pistol I doubt he'd swing that around and even then you can easily handcuff someone who's bleeding to death.
If you watch the video more closely, when the first 5 shots end he has his back to the officers but is still standing upright. Not falling down. At this point he could be pulling out a gun from the front of his pants or any other weapon. The 2nd officer then fires the next 5 shots and he then hits the ground.
Also you make it seem like you must have done something like this before. What with it being so "easy to handcuff someone who's bleeding to death". If you have been in a situation like that feel free to elaborate. If you haven't then please don't act like something is "easy"
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On January 25 2012 10:07 Xinder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2012 10:06 Serpico wrote:On January 25 2012 10:05 Whole wrote:On January 25 2012 10:03 Serpico wrote:On January 25 2012 10:01 dAPhREAk wrote:On January 25 2012 10:00 Corvi wrote:
i wouldnt be surprised if that was more bullets fired than the whole german police force does in an average month. this cop was either traumatized from an similar engagement which went really wrong or is a fucking crazyman. or doing what he was trained to do. 10 rounds into a normal sized male is normal? You're giving the cops a lot of leeway. the guy was still standing after 5 rounds. you want the cops to just wait and see if he pulls out a pistol or not? Uhh, define still, because you're way off. If you watch the video more closely, when the first 5 shots end he has his back to the officers but is still standing upright. Not falling down. At this point he could be pulling out a gun from the front of his pants or any other weapon. The 2nd officer then fires the next 5 shots and he then hits the ground.
He was actually starting to move away from the officer and unless he starts moving his hands towards his pockets there isnt a logical reason to assume he has any other weapon other than paranoia.
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