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Chahlz
United States25 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:07 Roeder wrote: It was more concerning the cover and lack of information pre-purchase. I'm certain there could have been a way to find what ever information you needed pre-purchase. Like seeing Steam's ToS, you could have easily found that before buying anything. | ||
Nyovne
Netherlands19141 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:01 Treemonkeys wrote: That's fine man, you still aren't agreeing to anything at the point of sell. In the US you most likely agreed to the terms the moment you broke the shrinkwrap covering the softwarebox. If not, the purchase and the user agreement are two seperate agreements (Yeah don't get me started). This is a point of debate in the EU as well as the US but for seperate reasons. In the EU it mostly revolves around the mandatory requirement of consumers being able to have a reasonable chance to inform themselves about the boiler plate agreements terms they are about to enter in with. | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19141 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:08 Chahlz wrote: I'm certain there could have been a way to find what ever information you needed pre-purchase. Like seeing Steam's ToS, you could have easily found that before buying anything. In the EU the initiative to inform the other contract party about the user agreement terms has to come from the user of those terms. Not the consumer. As such no obligation would have rested on him to take the time and effort to familiarise himself with the terms. On October 15 2011 04:54 Maxtor wrote: I have to disagree with you, companies always tend to put everything they can into ToS and they HOPE those terms stand up in court, there is quite a bit of legislation on this in the UK at least, i highly doubt DK is going to be very much different. , Sometimes those terms do apply sometimes they dont., Theres legislation protecting consumers because people dont read all of that and the government knows this, as do the courts, Anyway you can always sue,and cases of such low value dont cost much to get done, Litigation is far more accessable than people would have you believe. You are correct sir about company practices surrounding license agreements (or any other boiler plate agreement for that matter). I also have to agree with you about legal remedies being far more accessible then most people are led to believe. Going to court costs me between 50 and 85 bucks with regard to employment issues and other cases with interests up to 20k euros if I represent myself. Which luckily I am in simple cases and certain more complex ones due to my education and professional occupation. What this world needs is branche organisations for the protection of gamers or the general consumer protection agencies, in the EU at least, to take more of an interest in digital and virtual consumer affairs. | ||
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Thrasymachus725
Canada527 Posts
Lesson learned from the future: If there is any POSSIBLE question as to the legality of your actions, then chances are, you shouldn't do it. | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1603 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:03 Nyovne wrote: I just wrote my master thesis on this EULA/ToU crap. Long story short, in the EU this wouldn't fly, in the US it will. The ignorance on software user licensing even in a gaming community is painful. Time to wite a series of blogs about it when I have time. edit: I'm absolutely amazed what kind of stuff passes as 'ok' with US judges and the Supreme Court in the department of boiler plate agreement terms and consumer protection especially. Big business owns your country. That is because there aren't any major game corporations based in the UK at least not the top dogs like Valve, Microsoft, and Sony. The UK can say you cannot ban a linked legitimate game for abuse on another game, but they have no power to unban your account. And perhaps they could attempt to sue these companies, but other than Microsoft I don't see anyone folding to any country in EU. Also I don't see this as wrong of the game company though I'm not exactly sure how Valve works. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:00 Roeder wrote: Can we agree, that you buy the game off that detail seller? It's an accepted detail seller. Steam accepts CDON.com business. I'm judging this from the big "BUY" button there is, and the fact none sees that webshop as a third party store. Or do you BUY the rights to LEND the game? And where does that take us? Because with their ToS it smells like fake marketing then. You BUY a LICENSE. | ||
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RoosterSamurai
Japan2108 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:11 Nyovne wrote: In the EU the initiative to inform the other contract party about the user agreement terms has to come from the user of those terms. Not the consumer. As such no obligation would have rested on him to take the time and effort to familiarise himself with the terms. Then I guess there is not too much incentive for software marketing in Europe, is there? I've learned something new reading your post (Assuming you're correct, which I do). But it just seems like it leaves companies like valve pretty vulnerable. | ||
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Kuja
United States1759 Posts
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On October 15 2011 04:48 Terranigma wrote: Do you have a source for that? Also, I'm not sure that'd count with Steam since you don't "buy" Steam. You install it free of charge, accept the TOS and are then free to decide whether you wanna buy the actual games. Yeah, sure: EULA (in German obviously). For more information read the "Einzelnachweise", there it get's "technical" (lawyerspeak)^^ On October 15 2011 05:12 RoosterSamurai wrote: Then I guess there is not too much incentive for software marketing in Europe, is there? I've learned something new reading your post (Assuming you're correct, which I do). But it just seems like it leaves companies like valve pretty vulnerable. We dont only have laws protecting consumers. We also have laws protecting the companies  It's not like consumers can do whatever they want. @Nyovne: Is your thesis available for the public? (if yes, link plz!) | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19141 Posts
Purchasing software in a shop and downloading it are very different things. Purchasing the box and registering an account/installing it are two different agreements with two different parties. Downloading software and then installing it is one agreement as your license agreement should have been part of the sales agreement for several reasons. Regarding Steam in this case it's cut and dry, they aquired all rights regarding legal procedings the moment they aquired the game for sale or exploitation. Long story short again, as long as businesses alert the consumer in a hard to miss way about the terms being applicable to the license agreement and provide said terms to the consumer in a way he or she can easily browse through them (and read them, aka no too small lettering) and enable them to save them in an easy manner for later reviewing they're fine. BEFORE COMPLETING THE AGREEMENT (aka being able to install/or complete your account registry/or start a download of the software. With this last one being a bit dodgy if the consumer gets to see all the proper stuff before being able to install after a download and get a refund if he refuses at the time. Then again, who ever managed to get a refund for a download, ever?). It's all very reasonable and it just means they don't get to screw consumers over by hiding terms or showing them after they already agreed to them. Which is actually legal in the US tt (in both cases). Edit: If you can read Dutch Zocat xD. | ||
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RoosterSamurai
Japan2108 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:23 Nyovne wrote: Why would it leave them vulnerable? They just have to make sure they clearly present the application of their terms and make their terms easily viewable for the consumer (and give them an easy way to save said terms for later reviewing) before they are able to complete any installation or registration process. In case of a downloaded piece of software they better do the things I just stated before the consumer is able to complete the buy/sale and start the download. Purchasing software in a shop and downloading it are very different things. Purchasing the box and registering an account/installing it are two different agreements with two different parties. Downloading software and then installing it is one agreement as your license agreement should have been part of the sales agreement for several reasons. Regarding Steam in this case it's cut and dry, they aquired all rights regarding legal procedings the moment they aquired the game for sale or exploitation. Long story short again, as long as businesses alert the consumer in a hard to miss way about the terms being applicable to the license agreement and provide said terms to the consumer in a way he or she can easily browse through them (and read them, aka no too small lettering) and enable them to save them in an easy manner for later reviewing they're fine. It's all very reasonable and it just means they don't get to screw consumers over by hiding terms or showing them after they already agreed to them. Which is actually legal in the US tt (in both cases). I felt as though the steam ToS was easily accessible. The first time I bought a steam game in a store (CS:S) I noticed on the back of the box that I had to install steam and agree to it's terms of use. If steam is in the wrong in this instance, which is what I've been arguing, then it seems that it would leave them vulnerable to lawsuits from game producers for providing a medium through which users can activate illegitimate CD-keys without taking any preventative measures. | ||
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Noxie
United States2227 Posts
This is the same case if your account gets hacked.. | ||
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Arnstein
Norway3381 Posts
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/10/norway-consumer-groups-sets-sights-on-kindle-e-book-tie-in.ars | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19141 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:26 RoosterSamurai wrote: I felt as though the steam ToS was easily accessible. The first time I bought a steam game in a store (CS:S) I noticed on the back of the box that I had to install steam and agree to it's terms of use. If steam is in the wrong in this instance, which is what I've been arguing, then it seems that it would leave them vulnerable to lawsuits from game producers for providing a medium through which users can activate illegitimate CD-keys without taking any preventative measures. Again, why would it leave them vulnerable? Plus this isn't about a preventive measure, it's a punitive measure, as it is after the fact. There is no prevention here with regards to this case in question. A point about measures in case, they have to be relative to the offense. Removing someone from your entire service and destroy possibly hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of software for someone is not even close to being reasonable as a measure for doing what he did. Removing that game from his Steam library and giving him a warning for the infraction of the user license would be reasonable. Or removing the game and perhaps a small fine (20-50 euros) would be fine as well. Except for the fact that you cannot enter the fine system into a boiler plate agreement. Even though every gaming service bans and removes stuff, I'm not sure if that actually would fly in the courtroom. Noone's tried, but we're bound to find out within the next few years. Especially with growing emotional and financial interests people are aquiring in games and virtual worlds. edit: It's easily accessible for us internet savy people btw, my mom would have to take some time to find it, which is found to be unreasonable towards consumers. Plus it's zero effort for them to create some forced to scroll through the agreements clickwrap agreement before being able to download or install which paired with an easy way to save the terms meets every requirement. edit: General note, Germany has boss level consumer protection laws, I think even better then the Dutch. | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On October 15 2011 05:26 RoosterSamurai wrote: I felt as though the steam ToS was easily accessible. The first time I bought a steam game in a store (CS:S) I noticed on the back of the box that I had to install steam and agree to it's terms of use. If steam is in the wrong in this instance, which is what I've been arguing, then it seems that it would leave them vulnerable to lawsuits from game producers for providing a medium through which users can activate illegitimate CD-keys without taking any preventative measures. Really? first time I bought a steam game I brought a card with the cover art up to the till, paid for it, then received a physical copy of the game being unaware that it was affiliated with Valve/a steam game before POS. | ||
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Roeder
Denmark735 Posts
The actions they took was removal of the game from the account without any refunds of course. Everyone's happy - with a warning that next time it is deletion of the Steam account with all games included. | ||
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Korlinni
125 Posts
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Craton
United States17303 Posts
On October 15 2011 04:11 nalgene wrote: You should only have one game per steam account ( this would save you things, but it'd be slightly more annoying to use ) no one to shylock or _ _ _ you anyways lol I think 80 accounts would be a bit much to manage. | ||
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BarbieHsu
574 Posts
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
I just ran steam and saw, for example, that it says "Add a Game" not "Add a Game License", or when you add to cart, it shows up as (for example) "Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of war II - Retribution" rather than "Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II - Retribution License" And when you go to the game-specific page, it keeps saying "buy game" not "buy game license" or "package includes 3 items, *game name*, etc" never any mention of any license. I think that's incredibly misleading at best, and straight out lying at worst.. No reasonable consumer would expect that you're not actually buying the game due to steam's efforts to convince you that you are. OnLive for example, makes it painfully clear that you're renting the games. | ||
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