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On June 11 2011 06:48 [F_]aths wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 01:19 EdSlyB wrote:
I'm so used to equal temperament that other temperaments sound a little off to me. But that's because equal temperament is everywhere. Besides I play mostly with another instruments that can't be temperated so it would be a mess to play and to listen. Same for me. Interestingly, a real grand sounds better than a digital grand (at least someone I can afford.) An acoustic grand does not allow you to play a pure note because the vibrating strings will have an effect on surrounding strings of other notes. If I play a triad on my Yamaha DGX 630 keyboard, the three notes overlie themselves for the chord. If I play a triad on a real grand, the notes merge into the chord, I just hear the chord and not three notes. It sounds great, even though it is less accurate than on the keyboard.
I think that's common knowlegde that acoustic pianos are tuned with many strings/keys not exactly in tune. That actually makes the chords sound richer.
I have a Korg LP-350 at home and when I turn on the Werckmeister III scale the chords sound a little 'harsh'. I can't play more than one minute with that temperament. ^^
I think that this subject can be summarized like this: music is art. Music is life. Music is Nature. As such you can't simply treat it like a math operation. Because then music will be an automaton, a robot and it will sound 'artificial'. You need to have some 'imperfections'. Only then you'll hear Nature's true sound.
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I'm also a musician (guess the instrument) and we have to continually adjust intonation on the fly.
However, when working on technique, we tend to stick to equal temperament for training consistency. This way you should already have a good feeling of how you'll need to adjust, without listening and reacting every single note.
I hadn't put a whole lot of thought into this, it's pretty crazy.
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On June 13 2011 06:49 zinic wrote:To much bla and no music ! .... first couple of sentences i was like ermmm .. just overtones ? cba to read the rest  ... i always hated it when music gets mixed with TO much theory, and i still do till this day =( ... ofcourse there needs to be knowledge in theory but to much .. is to much ... comprende!? This is not too much theory, in fact, I focused on some rough principles only. Why is the fifth as important as it is? Because it is the simplest frequency ratio with a fraction.
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On June 13 2011 05:36 WinterNightz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 12:52 wo1fwood wrote:As an interesting note, the study of these systems reveals a very interesting historical correlation to the music that these systems influenced. As an example, do we know why Beethoven's 3rd Symphony was nicknamed the Eroica? Well, it's because Eb major as a key was known as the heroic key, in fact, every key had a unique 'mood' because the tuning system created intervallic discrepancies between each key, giving each one a unique style and pathos. A large chunk of western history was influenced greatly by this, and the tuning systems that gave rise to those discrepancies. I have to say, this is the biggest epiphany for me. I've been doing both mathematics and music for so long, but taken for granted (what I had been told) about all nth intervals being equal on a keyboard. I knew from just playing around on a keyboard that I liked certain chords more than others (differing only in their tonic), but I never had any idea why. I am curious, however. How does this all apply to, say, brass instruments, who are necessarily built off harmonic intervals? I play the trumpet, and just for example, if I play everything with open fingers, these notes are theoretically all following an overtone series of the fundamental frequency of the horn. (right?). Does this mean then, that as my range gets higher and higher, I would end up being out of tune compared to a piano? And then that my (for example) C to E interval changes depending which octave I am at? The crazy sorts of things you learn at Team Liquid.... gracias OP and all contributing smart peoples.
On a keyboard, Eb is no different from any other key. The different moods associated with keys either comes from specific composers or from the temperment causing different keys to have different intervals. On a modern keyboard all keys have the same intervals, so if you like certain chords more than others it does not have to do with temperment in any way. However, many composers still associate moods with keys, so its nothing out of the ordinary.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, pianos are tuned specifically out-of-tune as it gets higher and higher to make the chords sound less dull.
On wind instruments, keep in mind that lots of tuning is done with voicing of your airstream, but yes, the higher you go the tunings get more out of tune. But the higher you go, the more overtones there are. This is why trumpet players need to use triggers up higher as well as valves. If you watch pro Trombone players, for instance, they will have a slightly different "3rd position" depending on the note they're playing.
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Yes, on a keyboard B# is C and C## is D and we also have no key characteristics left. An acoustic instrument could have some key characteristics even if tuned in equal temperament as the resonance of the body could influence the overtone spectra. But it would not be the commonly assumed characteristic.
If I am not mistaken, grands are tuned "wrongly" because of the stiffness of strings. The actual slightly wrong tuning leads to perceived right temperament (equal temperament, that is.)
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EPT
