I find it very interesting and it gives an idea of where the money is going. There are some terrifying figures in there, especially relating to debt per person and the attached interest bill.
I am a CPA (or the foreign equivalent) and know that debt has its place in business. I temper this knowing that debt for the wrong reasons is bad. The wrong reason is living beyond your means, and that is what the US as a country is doing. When a person has debts that are equal to their yearly salary you think that person is in trouble. Extraploate it to a country and the mindset is "its all fine!". People have a wonderful ability to delude themselves. If you take into account that the OP mentioned the US works on the cash basis and not the accrual basis then debt is actually far far higher since medical and pensions are the biggest albatrosses around private corporations necks, so the same holds true for the government.
As long as America clings to the "Greatest nation on Earth" and "international meddler" mentality then matters will get worse. America as a country can't afford to run around the globe spending hundreds of billions of dollars on "wars on terror" and other stuff.
There is already serious talk and plans to move oil away from being based in Dollars. Oil is valued in Dollars because of what the Dollar always represented. That era is ending.
I'm not sure what the tipping point will be, but the current system has to end. It can end through strong leadership, which seems unlikely since the US can't even pass a normal budget, let alone one with appropriate measures to end the current farce. I know what happens when a company fails finacially, I have no clue what happens when a country fails financiall though. You can't print money to stay afloat forever.
Maybe you should all start learning Mandarin It seems like China owns a sizable portion of the country anyway.
On April 10 2011 01:00 Sprouter wrote: tax the wealthy or kill medicare, social security, and medicaid.
Simple models like this do not work when trying to adjust messy real-world systems. 1. Tax the wealthy- How? They already are being taxed, theoretically. Tax them more? By how much? Enforce the existing rules? The people responsible for enforcement would be doing that already, if (necessary but insufficient): i)they were competent AND ii)they knew how to enforce the rules AND iii)they knew where the violation was AND iiii)they will act to enforce the rules rather than getting paid off for personal benefit And so on. Clearly there are issues at each step of even this short list; getting the entire system to work is not trivial. (Wealthy people are not stupid either, they probably aren't going to stand around docilely waiting for you to persecute them without constructing comprehensive defense systems around their wealth.)
2. Kill entitlement programs- just be like, "yo, medicare is too expensive, the entire program ends tomorrow"? There will be a shitload of angry people who will be angry at you for breaking the promise. They had already earned the money when they were younger and working to put it into the system, now they are older and want their fucking money back that was promised to them. You want to be the one responsible for ending this promise? (not an enviable job, but someone will be left holding it in the end) Good luck with that.
Obviously there are problems, but something like just 'tax the wealthy' is not a validly formatted answer.
The IRS does its job quite well, and is generally pretty good about catching actual tax cheats. Where it is stuck, however, is when people use entire legal methods of reducing their tax rates, that go beyond what is seen as equitable.
So, how to tax the wealthy: 1% wealth tax per annum on the market value of assets possessed anywhere in the world. Capital gains are taxed as if they are salary income. The thing is, the US has 2 laws that make it extremely difficult to simply GTFO if you don't like the taxes.
1) You have to pay tax on overseas income earned to the IRS, at the US rate, with taxes payed to the country you are working to be offset against taxes owed to the IRS, at compliant countries. (if the country is non-complaint, you are double taxed)
2) Renouncing your citizenship to avoid taxes (and by law, if you are worth more than a couple million, any renouncing of US citizenship is automatically deemed to be for tax avoidance purposes), allows the government, to sieze 95% of all your assets.
On April 10 2011 09:20 Deja Thoris wrote: Maybe you should all start learning Mandarin It seems like China owns a sizable portion of the country anyway.
Yes , although actually the biggest holder of US debt is now the private US Federal Reserve. And the US has to pay interest on that debt to the same private banking cartel. The US would be in far far better shape if the FED didn't exist and it produced it's own currency as it did prior to 1913.
yes, the US is in a world of shit right now. The only way I see to get out of it is to stop this crazy militarism its doing all over the world, stop fighting in all 10 countries you are in and reduce the government size by 30%.
For every 1 cop in the US there are 20 "management" persons who no one knows what they do actually.
I once did a paper on the Federal Reserve Act while I was in college. The Federal reserve bank is basically a bank that is run by all of the major regional banks in the US. The more you research how our money is created and who is in control of it, the more you realize that the people of the US have been completely sold out and haven't even begun to realize how deep it goes.
The whole housing bubble, was completely created and popped on purpose. The banks control the value of the currency (how much is printed is what makes a dollar's value, it is not backed by gold!) they banks appraise the houses thus controlling the value of homes, the banks are the ones who gave out these bad loans (basically if your not able to get approved for a 150,000$ loan they just approve you for 2x 75,000$ loans to get around it) also they were giving people adjustable rate loans which go up and down, sometimes drastically, depending on current interest rates. Which, by the way, the Fed also controls interest rates. So basically, the major banks in the US control all of the major variables in the housing and currency sectors of the US exclusively. There is no way the housing bubble could happen with out them MAKING it happen.
Why would they do this? Well after the housing bubble the banks ended up with , all the money paid towards the house including any down payment, they take the house back once you can't pay anymore, then the government gives them trillions in bail outs. A pretty good deal for them.
Furthermore, all the smaller banks that go bankrupt, because of all the defaulted loans, get bought by the bigger banks at bargain prices. It was a consolidation of wealth, plain and simple. The people at the top creating a situation that allowed them to gain control of more assets.
The US is ruled by banks and corporations. Much of the US's media, banks, and corporations are owned by a small group of people. You have been sold out, these people don't care if you suffer, and there is nothing you can do to stop them. They've already won. They own you, your country and your children.
It's like sitting down at a poker table with 100$ of chips, there are 6 other people with 100$ of chips. Then there is one guy with 10,000,000$ worth of chips. Who do you think is going to end up with all the chips when the game is over? By the way, the guy with the 10,000,000$ can change how much a chip is worth at any time. This is how the US's banking and financial system are run.
By now you probably are quite sure I'm some crazy conspiracy idiot. So here's a few quotes from people on the subject who's opinions you might value.
"The few who understand the system, will either be so interested from it's profits or so dependant on it's favors, that there will be no opposition from that class." — Rothschild Brothers of London, 1863
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild
"A great industrial nation is controlled by it's system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world--no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men." — President Woodrow Wilson
Senators and Congressmen
"Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States" — Sen. Barry Goldwater (Rep. AR)
"This [Federal Reserve Act] establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President [Wilson} signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized....the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill." — Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. , 1913
"From now on, depressions will be scientifically created." — Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh Sr. , 1913
"The financial system has been turned over to the Federal Reserve Board. That Board as ministers the finance system by authority of a purely profiteering group. The system is Private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people's money" -- Charles A. Lindbergh Sr., 1923
"The Federal Reserve bank buys government bonds without one penny..." — Congressman Wright Patman, Congressional Record, Sept 30, 1941
"We have, in this country, one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it". — Congressman Louis T. McFadden in 1932 (Rep. Pa)
"The Federal Reserve banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this nation is run by the International bankers — Congressman Louis T. McFadden (Rep. Pa)
"Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are the United States government's institutions. They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign swindlers" — Congressional Record 12595-12603 — Louis T. McFadden, Chairman of the Committee on Banking and Currency (12 years) June 10, 1932
"I have never seen more Senators express discontent with their jobs....I think the major cause is that, deep down in our hearts, we have been accomplices in doing something terrible and unforgivable to our wonderful country. Deep down in our heart, we know that we have given our children a legacy of bankruptcy. We have defrauded our country to get ourselves elected." — John Danforth (R-Mo)
"These 12 corporations together cover the whole country and monopolize and use for private gain every dollar of the public currency..." — Mr. Crozier of Cincinnati, before Senate Banking and Currency Committee - 1913
"The [Federal Reserve Act] as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency... I do not like to think that any law can be passed that will make it possible to submerge the gold standard in a flood of irredeemable paper currency." — Henry Cabot Lodge Sr., 1913
From the Federal Reserves Own Admissions
"When you or I write a check there must be sufficient funds in out account to cover the check, but when the Federal Reserve writes a check there is no bank deposit on which that check is drawn. When the Federal Reserve writes a check, it is creating money." — Putting it simply, Boston Federal Reserve Bank
"Neither paper currency nor deposits have value as commodities, intrinsically, a 'dollar' bill is just a piece of paper. Deposits are merely book entries." — Modern Money Mechanics Workbook, Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, 1975
"The Federal Reserve system pays the U.S. Treasury 020.60 per thousand notes --a little over 2 cents each-- without regard to the face value of the note. Federal Reserve Notes, incidentally, are the only type of currency now produced for circulation. They are printed exclusively by the Treasury's Bureau of Engraving and Printing, and the $20.60 per thousand price reflects the Bureau's full cost of production. Federal Reserve Notes are printed in 01, 02, 05, 10, 20, 50, and 100 dollar denominations only; notes of 500, 1000, 5000, and 10,000 denominations were last printed in 1945." —Donald J. Winn, Assistant to the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve system
"We are completely dependant on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon." — Robert H. Hamphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank
From General Law
"The entire taxing and monetary systems are hereby placed under the U.C.C. (Uniform Commercial Code)" — The Federal Tax Lien Act of 1966
"There is a distinction between a 'debt discharged' and a debt 'paid'. When discharged, the debt still exists though divested of it's charter as a legal obligation during the operation of the discharge, something of the original vitality of the debt continues to exist, which may be transferred, even though the transferee takes it subject to it's disability incident to the discharge." —Stanek vs. White, 172 Minn.390, 215 N.W. 784
"The Federal Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities..." — Lewis vs. United States 9th Circuit 1992
"The regional Federal Reserve banks are not government agencies. ...but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations." — Lewis vs. United States, 680 F. 2d 1239 9th Circuit 1982
Past Presidents
"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." — James A. Garfield, President of the United States
Founding Father's
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power (of money) should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." — Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President.
Andrew Jackson "If Congress has the right [it doesn't] to issue paper money [currency], it was given to them to be used by...[the government] and not to be delegated to individuals or corporations" — President Andrew Jackson, Vetoed Bank Bill of 1836
James Madison "History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance." — James Madison
Misc. Sources
"Banks lend by creating credit. They create the means of payment out of nothing" — Ralph M. Hawtrey, Secretary of the British Treasury
"To expose a 15 Trillion dollar rip-off of the American people by the stockholders of the 1000 largest corporations over the last 100 years will be a tall order of business." — Buckminster Fuller
"Every Congressman, every Senator knows precisely what causes inflation...but can't, [won't] support the drastic reforms to stop it [repeal of the Federal Reserve Act] because it could cost him his job." — Robert A. Heinlein, Expanded Universe
"It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." — Henry Ford
"[Every circulating FRN] represents a one dollar debt to the Federal Reserve system." — Money Facts, House Banking and Currency Committee
"...the increase in the assets of the Federal Reserve banks from 143 million dollars in 1913 to 45 billion dollars in 1949 went directly to the private stockholders of the [federal reserve] banks." — Eustace Mullins
"As soon as Mr. Roosevelt took office, the Federal Reserve began to buy government securities at the rate of ten million dollars a week for 10 weeks, and created one hundred million dollars in new [checkbook] currency, which alleviated the critical famine of money and credit, and the factories started hiring people again." — Eustace Mullins
"Should government refrain from regulation (taxation), the worthlessness of the money becomes apparent and the fraud can no longer be concealed." — John Maynard Keynes, "Consequences of Peace."
"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits." — SIR JOSIAH STAMP, (President of the Bank of England in the 1920's, the second richest man in Britain):
"The modern Banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented. Banks can in fact inflate, mint and unmint the modern ledger-entry currency." — MAJOR L .L. B. ANGUS:
"While boasting of our noble deeds were careful to conceal the ugly fact that by an iniquitous money system we have nationalized a system of oppression which, though more refined, is not less cruel than the old system of chattel slavery. — Horace Greeley
"People who will not turn a shovel full of dirt on the project (Muscle Shoals Dam) nor contribute a pound of material, will collect more money from the United States than will the People who supply all the material and do all the work. This is the terrible thing about interest ...But here is the point: If the Nation can issue a dollar bond it can issue a dollar bill. The element that makes the bond good makes the bill good also. The difference between the bond and the bill is that the bond lets the money broker collect twice the amount of the bond and an additional 20%. Whereas the currency, the honest sort provided by the Constitution pays nobody but those who contribute in some useful way. It is absurd to say our Country can issue bonds and cannot issue currency. Both are promises to pay, but one fattens the usurer and the other helps the People. If the currency issued by the People were no good, then the bonds would be no good, either. It is a terrible situation when the Government, to insure the National Wealth, must go in debt and submit to ruinous interest charges at the hands of men who control the fictitious value of gold. Interest is the invention of Satan." — THOMAS A. EDISON
"By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft." — John Maynard Keynes (the father of 'Keynesian Economics' which our nation now endures) in his book "THE ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES OF THE PEACE" (1920).
"Capital must protect itself in every way...Debts must be collected and loans and mortgages foreclosed as soon as possible. When through a process of law the common people have lost their homes, they will be more tractable and more easily governed by the strong arm of the law applied by the central power of leading financiers. People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. This is well known among our principal men now engaged in forming an imperialism of capitalism to govern the world. By dividing the people we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us except as teachers of the common herd."-- Taken from the Civil Servants' Year Book, "The Organizer" January 1934.
"The Federal Reserve banks, while not part of the government..." — United States budget for
1991 and 1992 part 7, page 10
The Money Power! It is the greatest power on earth; and it is arrayed against Labour. No other power that is or ever was can be named with it... it attacks us through the Press - a monster with a thousand lying tongues, a beast surpassing in foulness any conceived by the mythology that invented dragons, were wolves, harpies, ghouls and vampires. It thunders against us from innumerable platforms and ,Yes, so far as we are concerned, the headquarters of the Money Power is Britain. But the Money Power is not a British institution; it is cosmopolitan. It is of no nationality, but of all nationalities. It dominates the world. The Money Power has corrupted the faculties of the human soul, and tampered with the sanity of the human intellect... Editorial from 1907 edition of The Brisbane Worker (Australia)
funny that many countries can spend a higher percent of their GDP through the government but have significantly less debt issues.
maybe it's because in many countries people pay their fucking taxes.
tax lawyers ought not exist. the IRS ought to have only 2 functions: setting the marginal tax schedule and ensuring complete collection.
people who QQ about taxes amuse me. silly delusions of deserving worldly possessions, most - if not all - gained through the circumstances of birth, drive a mindset whereby the poor and dejected in this country believe they are but moments away from moving up to the upper class. of course, all recent (and by recent I mean longer than I or most of you have been alive) econometric data says that that's not the case; that social mobility is higher in the hated european nations that represent the evils of socialism.
oh and people like to blame economists. if only they would listen to them. as a profession, they arent very good at rubbing it in people's faces that they were right. it is truly tragic that we no longer have John Maynard Keynes; he would have had no hesitation laughing in our face as models designed to please our political overlords with little regard for reality blew up in our laps in spectacular fashion.
On April 10 2011 12:12 red_b wrote: oh and people like to blame economists. if only they would listen to them. as a profession, they arent very good at rubbing it in people's faces that they were right. it is truly tragic that we no longer have John Maynard Keynes; he would have had no hesitation laughing in our face as models designed to please our political overlords with little regard for reality blew up in our laps in spectacular fashion.
Most of the time they aren't right , how many predicted the GFC?
On April 10 2011 09:20 Deja Thoris wrote: When a person has debts that are equal to their yearly salary you think that person is in trouble.
Actually, no. Have you ever heard of a mortgage?
Unless you think that nobody outside of the top 5% of the population should be able to own a home, you should probably re-examine your views, there.
Except there is a huge difference between a debt that is an investment and debt that is a consequence of an inability to pay your obligations. In the first example, the payments are made on the mortgage to decrease it and pay it off. Suppose someone had a mortgage and didn't actually make payments on it, and the interest got tacked on to the principal year after year, and there was no foreseeable raise in the persons income that would suggest an ability to pay it off in the future. In that case, bankruptcy is inevitable.
On April 10 2011 12:12 red_b wrote: it is truly tragic that we no longer have John Maynard Keynes; he would have had no hesitation laughing in our face as models designed to please our political overlords with little regard for reality blew up in our laps in spectacular fashion.
It is truly tragic that we no longer have Keynes, because we aren't able to see the look on his face upon seeing that the Keynesian experiment has been shown to be a complete failure.
On April 10 2011 11:16 AirportSecurity wrote: World War 3 will deal with this debt
haha, WW2 sure solved the great depression but WW3 will not take place mainly in Europe (which was the predominate reason our economy got back on track) but the US will me extremely involved. In addition with nuclear weapons, WW3 will most likely put the US in a worse state.
Honestly, I think it is stupid that we are supporting the elders. I think the money should go to the younger population and education. The US manufacturing capacity is crippled because most major manufacturing company will outsource to foreign nation where labor is under a dollar. With US wages several times higher, the US can't even compete. As a result, there are less jobs for Americans while the wealthy are generating greater profit. More money for the rich, less for the poor. In other words, the trickle-down effect no longer applies. The USD will continue to depreciate because we are importing much more than we are exporting because Americans tend to buy cheaper products. Cheaper products come from cheaper labor. The US cannot support the elders and devote the funds to the next generation. Education is more important than ever because nowadays, most jobs lies in SERVICES instead of manufacturing. The US has lost their ground on the car and steel industries, its manufacturing giants. And now, it is losing its ground on its technology lead. After the cold war, less emphasis has been put on education and now, 40 students are crammed into a single class. European nations established newer, more efficient factories while America continues to rely on outdated factories but since WWII. With 14 trill in dept, I see an continual inflation for the USD and China will become more affluent as they are the major exporters of products. The government is leaving the dept and rising deficits for the next generation to deal with while ill-preparing the future with educational cuts.
I believe that the US needs to transition their energy policy. Less OIL dependence. Establish A LOT more nuclear power plants. Less damaging to the environment and if controlled and disposed of correctly, it will provide an abundant source of energy and more local jobs.
If I was a politician, I would advocate to ban the sale of gasoline cars with the excuse that it is, "irrecoverably damaging our environment and atmosphere" and only permit the sale of hydrogen Fuel Cell cars. Then I would have GM and Ford mass produce these cars to make them cheap and the US would regain some of its manufacturing capacity in the car industry. This would make the US less dependent on oil. <----- just a dream
On April 10 2011 09:20 Deja Thoris wrote: When a person has debts that are equal to their yearly salary you think that person is in trouble.
Actually, no. Have you ever heard of a mortgage?
Unless you think that nobody outside of the top 5% of the population should be able to own a home, you should probably re-examine your views, there.
I should have posted more completely. House and car (to an extent) debt is fine as long you you stick to "living within your means" People pile up debts comparable to their yearly earnings on consumption, not bricks and mortar. When people buy a bar of chocolate and they effectively pay it off over 24 months on a credit card I think its dumb. Thats what the Governement is doing, its meeting current obligations with long term loans. To do this in a pinch is fine, to do it for 20 years, well, look where we are now.
On April 10 2011 12:12 red_b wrote: funny that many countries can spend a higher percent of their GDP through the government but have significantly less debt issues.
maybe it's because in many countries people pay their fucking taxes.
tax lawyers ought not exist. the IRS ought to have only 2 functions: setting the marginal tax schedule and ensuring complete collection.
people who QQ about taxes amuse me. silly delusions of deserving worldly possessions, most - if not all - gained through the circumstances of birth, drive a mindset whereby the poor and dejected in this country believe they are but moments away from moving up to the upper class. of course, all recent (and by recent I mean longer than I or most of you have been alive) econometric data says that that's not the case; that social mobility is higher in the hated european nations that represent the evils of socialism.
oh and people like to blame economists. if only they would listen to them. as a profession, they arent very good at rubbing it in people's faces that they were right. it is truly tragic that we no longer have John Maynard Keynes; he would have had no hesitation laughing in our face as models designed to please our political overlords with little regard for reality blew up in our laps in spectacular fashion.
Because hard work, perseverance, and ingenuity had nothing to do with it. Right?
On April 10 2011 12:12 red_b wrote: funny that many countries can spend a higher percent of their GDP through the government but have significantly less debt issues.
maybe it's because in many countries people pay their fucking taxes.
tax lawyers ought not exist. the IRS ought to have only 2 functions: setting the marginal tax schedule and ensuring complete collection.
people who QQ about taxes amuse me. silly delusions of deserving worldly possessions, most - if not all - gained through the circumstances of birth, drive a mindset whereby the poor and dejected in this country believe they are but moments away from moving up to the upper class. of course, all recent (and by recent I mean longer than I or most of you have been alive) econometric data says that that's not the case; that social mobility is higher in the hated european nations that represent the evils of socialism.
oh and people like to blame economists. if only they would listen to them. as a profession, they arent very good at rubbing it in people's faces that they were right. it is truly tragic that we no longer have John Maynard Keynes; he would have had no hesitation laughing in our face as models designed to please our political overlords with little regard for reality blew up in our laps in spectacular fashion.
Uhm. You realize INCOME TAX taxes your income (which is the most complained about tax), not what you inherit from any family member. Income Tax literally taxes your hard work and paycheck. I have no idea what you're talking about, and have no idea how you justify socialism that way. That is not a good argument for socialism at all.
Economists really don't have a great track record. In the 60s, it was taught in schools that stagnation and inflation could not occur at the same time (because that's what the theory said). Then in the 70s we had stagflation and we had to rewrite all our economic textbooks.
Not to mention that about these specific issues there's tons of disagreement between economists.
On April 10 2011 20:16 RJGooner wrote: Because hard work, perseverance, and ingenuity had nothing to do with it. Right?
not really. socio-economic status and maternal education are by far the best predictors of success. you think you would be where you are now were you born in Etheopia? Or Estonia? Or even to a poor single parent family in Oakland? what a joke.
Americans, in general, are obsessed with anecdotes of rags to riches or bosses going undercover and seeing the light of how shitty they treat their employees and then make it all right. much like in a country of 350 million people, only a few hundred can be professional athletes in the big sports, a preposterously small percent of people are really able to find upward social mobility. and that is, unfortunately, well evidenced.
On April 10 2011 16:42 SpeaKEaSY wrote: It is truly tragic that we no longer have Keynes, because we aren't able to see the look on his face upon seeing that the Keynesian experiment has been shown to be a complete failure.
a promoter of gold as money writing a discourse on how Keynes was wrong? what a shocker.
On April 10 2011 23:27 DoubleReed wrote: Uhm. You realize INCOME TAX taxes your income (which is the most complained about tax), not what you inherit from any family member. Income Tax literally taxes your hard work and paycheck. I have no idea what you're talking about, and have no idea how you justify socialism that way. That is not a good argument for socialism at all.
see above. and Im not justifying socialism through that, just making a point about how silly people are when they attribute their income to things like hard work or that God somehow loves them more than starving people. I, you, all of us... we deserve nothing. Taxes are taken from income that is only owned as long as you have a government making sure no one shoots you and takes it from you. That is not true ownership. it is a difference in perspective caused from observation of reality instead of living in a dream world where money will drop from the sky because I am awesome.
On April 10 2011 23:27 DoubleReed wrote:Economists really don't have a great track record. In the 60s, it was taught in schools that stagnation and inflation could not occur at the same time (because that's what the theory said). Then in the 70s we had stagflation and we had to rewrite all our economic textbooks.
actually theory did allow for stagflation. Keynes's description of the aggregate supply curve is somewhat J shaped without the upturned left tail; prices are sticky to a point, then there is a period of the schedule where prices will rise with increased output and then there is a portion where prices can rise with stable output.
this was not something that was really considered by his pupils (Hicks, primarily, but also Samuelson) when they worked to make a mathematical formalization of the General Theory (which has all of 2 graphs in it). unfortunately, Keynes died shortly after publication so what precisely he had in mind was lost in the rather obtuse, ambiguous General Theory.
EPT
It seems like China owns a sizable portion of the country anyway.
