On August 21 2012 03:42 noD wrote: Even when most people say they trust sweden wont send JA to the USA or it's really not political if it was me I would NEVER trust the slightest chance most people are wrong =P I belive in conspiracy and think the USA wants him dead and will do so =P
That "most people" believe something doesn't necessarily mean that it is so. Obviously, some peoples opinion matter more than others. I feel a huge absence of source criticism in this case as blatant disinformation spread by biased sources is allowed to prevail. The same flawed arguments are brought up time and time again. Typically they are shaped in the mold of common techniques to argue by feelings like for example blaming the victim. Want proof - just go through the last 10-15 pages and tell me what you see.
I challenge you to find multiple examples of "victim blaming" in this thread. Disputing the accounts of "victims" or finding fault with the evidence is not the same thing as blaming the victims.
Many of them are mentioned in the second article in my post. Maybe my example was bad though, I might have confused things with other forums. But that doesn't mean that this thread is free from other types of similar techniques...
On August 21 2012 08:01 sunprince wrote:
On August 20 2012 18:43 one-one-one wrote:
On August 20 2012 07:36 zalz wrote: Show nested quote +
Not trusting the justice system isn't a valid reason not to be subjected to it.
Maybe if he had some valid evidence that the justice system was corrupt, like say, being asked to appear in a Zimbabwe court. But he isn't being called to appear at some banana-republic judge, he's being ordered to appear for questioning in Sweden.
Sweden's justice system is as close to perfect as possible. If you think the judges twiddle their thumbs waiting for a phonecall from Washington, telling them what the verdict needs to be, you're living in a tinfoil-fantasy land.
Sweden's justice system has considerable blind spots with regards to anything involving women. On top of that, the fact that Sweden's justice system is generally fair to Swedish citizens does not mean that it will be fair with respect to a high-value prisoner who is a target for multiple powerful first-world nations.
This is a common myth being spread by the Assange cult. There is no evidence for this, only people using arguments based on their feelings about the Swedish law with regards to rape definitions , consent and such.
Sweden is one of the most feminist-dominated nations in the world. This isn't a myth, it's fact.
I never said that it wasn't . I'm not admitting that it is true either though and an excerpt of a Swedish documentary on youtube does certainly not make it a fact.
It's part 1, not an excerpt. You can continue to watch the remaining parts of the documentary on Youtube. Regardless, what makes it a fact is not the documentary, but the evidence that the documentary points out.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: The myth I talked about is that "Sweden's justice system has considerable blind spots with regards to anything involving women". I just invalidated it because that statement is way to general. Anything involving women .... You might argue about some specific cases or scenarios where something like that could have happened. I saw no such thing.... In the real world, there is actually statistics debunking that myth which I have already given you earlier in this thread.
A Brief History of Swedish Sex 25 September 2010. Teenage couple breaks up.
Joakim, 18, spends an evening at his computer. He is in his boy’s room in his mother’s four room apartment. As usual he has spent some time with his girlfriend. She often stays over at his place as she has a lot of conflicts with her parents. The pair has sex practically every time they meet, oral as well as vaginal, which is no secret to the mother as the flat is not very sound proof. Sweden is still quite tolerant in these matters: Young people can have sex at home. The girlfriend herself says that they have a good relationship and that they like each other. They watch movies, meet friends and make trips on his moped. This evening she goes to bed while Joakim stays at his computer.
Before he goes to bed, he gets horny and wants to poke some fun at his sleeping girlfriend. He swings his penis in the air in front of her face and let’s it caress her between the lips to wake her up. She does, but dizzy with sleep she asks what he is doing, pushes him away, turns over and falls to sleep again.
Next day the girlfriend is picked up by her mother who brings her shopping for a journey she actually doesn’t want to make: Going to Finland with her parents on September 27 – 29. She would rather have stayed with Joakim. He calls her 2-3 times every day from his mother’s phone on her Finland tour to keep the girlfriend’s spirits up. When she returns from Finland she spends the night with him and they have sex as always.
On Saturday October 2, Joakim had to see his grandparents. He had promised to call his girlfriend the minute he returned home. He did not however, thinking it was too late. She is disappointed and wakes him up by a call the following morning and complains. The quarrel ends by Joakim saying that she has 24 hours to decide whether to continue seeing him. She says she does not want to stay together. Joakim returns her belongings.
5 April 2011. Joakim sentenced to prison for rape.
The sentence against Joakim, 18, is passed for the events on September 25, 2010. He gets four months’ imprisonment for rape and is convicted of paying damages to his ex-girlfriend. The girlfriend considered Joakim being the one breaking up although he only took her at her word and handed back her belongings.
The subsequent day she met her social worker to talk about her problems with her parents that she so far had been able to flee from to Joakim. She wondered what would happen if she would now report that Joakim one week earlier had woken her up with his penis between her lips. The social worker checked with the Police who said that in legal terms it could be a crime. The girl then reported her former boyfriend Joakim to them and asked for large damages. A chat conversation had been saved and used as evidence in court: “i put my cock in ur mouth once for 3 sec when u slept (…) did i force u to have it? it dont count as trying rape, just if i had continued, i stopped at once, i fucking tested it one time”
Three seconds of bodily touching between two persons in a relationship who normally have sex – including oral – every time they meet is however regarded as a serious crime in Sweden. It does not matter that they after this incident had sex as usual as soon as they were reunited after her trip to Finland. In the judgment one can read:
“Through the information it is proven that Joakim NNN at the time has put his erect penis in A’s mouth through improperly exploiting that she due to sleep was in a helpless state. The district court also finds that there has been a question of a sexual act that with with regard to the nature of the violation and the circumstances in general, is comparable to sexual intercourse. Joakim NNN is therefore guilty of rape (…) Rape according to Chapter 6, Article 1, second paragraph of the Penal Code carries a penalty of imprisonment for at least two years and a maximum of six years. If the offense under the circumstances is to be regarded as less serious, the sentence (…) is imprisonment not exceeding four years. If, in view of the circumstances , the crime is considered less aggravated, a sentence to imprisonment for at most four years shall, according the third paragraph, be imposed. (…) In this case, it has been the case of a short-term events. Joakim NNN has suspended his act as soon as A woke up and made it clear to him that she did not accept his actions. No violence or threat has been present. The District Court therefore finds that Joakim NNN shall be sentenced for rape under Chapter 6, Article 1, third paragraph of the Penal Code.”
If the proposal from the Center Party (c) in the Parliament on March 2, 2005, had won, 18-year-old Joakim would have been sentenced to two years’ imprisonment for his three-second contact between his and his girlfriend’s bodies that he immediately interrupted when she woke up, pushed him away and turned over to sleep again. If the current development of Justice policy proceeds it could very well be that ordinary bedroom behavior between two partners can lead to two years’ imprisonment. The ex-girlfriend demanded that Joakim pay 75,000 SEK (10,440 USD) in damages for the violation and 10,000 SEK (1,400 USD) for pain and suffering. The judge lowered this to 25,000 SEK (3,480 USD) and 5,000 SEK (700 USD) respectively. In the publicly available judgment the name, personal registration number, and address of the sentenced perpetrator Joakim is obviously written out. There is however no information whatsoever about the girlfriend, since her name is classified as secret, as always in rape cases in Sweden. We cannot even know her age. Due to her school situation (High School) she should be between 16 and 18. Age is not a case. She was in no way underage since the age of consent is 15 in Sweden.”
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Just like 99% of Assange's zombies.
Enough with the stupid ad-hominems already. I'm not even an Assange supporter, I'm just opposed to unjust judicial systems, but even if I were, it has no bearing on the argument at hand.
lol keep linking.. SOME legal experts want to do this, SOME legal experts want to do that, "SWEDEN" wants to ban standing urinals, but when i read it turns out thats not what it says at all. whats your point?
Nice of you to selectively ignore the evidence which you don't have an answer for.
The point, which wasn't addressed towards you, is that Assange has every reason to be wary of the Swedish judicial system with regards to a rape trial.
look at the cover for christs sake! sounds fair and balanced. and sure, you're no Assange supporter, just a concerned citizen.
Meanwhile in Sweden, hell, apparently we want to ban stand-up urinals! I wasn't aware. Oh wait, it turns out it wasn't Sweden, it turns out it was a suggestion raised by one local county politician from a party which represents roughly 5% of the electorate nationally.
the fact that you are so blatantly cherry-picking your "facts" to build a narrative that hardly corresponds to reality in the slightest is painfully obvious. i don't have to disprove your "evidence". you have to try again, and try harder.
Yeah sunprince , your "evidence" makes me giggle
Yeah, I'm sure it's hilarious to refuse to read it.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote:No-one takes the left party seriously, they have made a whole array of stupid law proposals. They even proposed a man-tax.... Most Swedes find this a never ending source of amusement. I could go on and on about this, lol. I'm sure you have political parties in the US proposing stupid shit all the time.
We do have stupid proposals, and they reveal the nature of who the acceptable targets are. For example, we get stupid proposals here regarding immigrants, which reveals the fact that public discourse and culture is slanted against immigrants here. Similarly, the fact that you have political parties making stupid proposals targeting men reveals that Sweden is (particularly) slanted against men, no surprise considering the "success" of Swedish feminism.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: I recall a quite recent example where the court argued that a raped woman had given clear signs that she wanted to have sex with the guy by "dressing in a sexy way". The prosecutors and lawyers of the accused rapist went very hard at her and forced her to answer humiliating questions about very personal and intimate stuff related about her sex life . All this under oath of course. Does all Swedish rape trials disfavor the woman because of this ? Does the Swedish judicial system consist of only man chauvinist pigs?
Specifically note the passage: " .... What we do know is that Assange will receive fair treatment by Swedish legal institutions. And, yes, their respect for the rule of law extends to accusations of sexual offenses. As recently as a few years ago, the Swedish Supreme Court explicitly ruled that the same high standard of proof applied to other criminal allegations are to be applied in cases of suspected rape. Similar criticisms of the Swedish legal system are based largely on myths and misconceptions. The framework of Sweden’s criminal law with respect to sexual offenses is no different from most other countries’. I will not be sentenced for rape if my condom breaks during a sexual act. But, like in many other countries, I can be convicted of rape if I have sex with a sleeping or unconscious person. ...."
A single Swedish law professor's opinion is not an authoritative indicator of fact, nor is it immune from bias. The actual article is dubious, as he argues that it is a fact that the Swedish judicial system is fair, despite this being philosophically impossible (fairness is an opinion, not an objective fact like the 2+2 = 4). He also insists that Swedish judges will not be externally influenced, despite the presence of lay judges who are political appointees. Göran Lambertz, the former Chancellor of Justice, published a 2009 study which reveals major problems with the Swedish judicial system, especially where sexual offenses are concerned (8 out of 11 of the wrongful convictions in the study are due to sexual offenses).
Your unreasonable approach to this issue, mirrored by many Swedish posters in this thread, is a strong indicator that you've been brainwashed by the state feminism controlled media. And before you insist that's not the case, consider this article by legendary Swedish feminist journalist Helene Borgman. When a legendary feminist thinks that state feminism has run amok, that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with Sweden.
Why did you go through all the trouble to write all that when I said that I wouldn't discuss with you anymore.
But since you are willing to waste your time like this at least you could have answered my question: Have you actually been to Sweden?
On August 21 2012 06:04 one-one-one wrote: [quote]
That "most people" believe something doesn't necessarily mean that it is so. Obviously, some peoples opinion matter more than others. I feel a huge absence of source criticism in this case as blatant disinformation spread by biased sources is allowed to prevail. The same flawed arguments are brought up time and time again. Typically they are shaped in the mold of common techniques to argue by feelings like for example blaming the victim. Want proof - just go through the last 10-15 pages and tell me what you see.
I challenge you to find multiple examples of "victim blaming" in this thread. Disputing the accounts of "victims" or finding fault with the evidence is not the same thing as blaming the victims.
Many of them are mentioned in the second article in my post. Maybe my example was bad though, I might have confused things with other forums. But that doesn't mean that this thread is free from other types of similar techniques...
On August 21 2012 08:01 sunprince wrote:
On August 20 2012 18:43 one-one-one wrote: [quote]
This is a common myth being spread by the Assange cult. There is no evidence for this, only people using arguments based on their feelings about the Swedish law with regards to rape definitions , consent and such.
Sweden is one of the most feminist-dominated nations in the world. This isn't a myth, it's fact.
I never said that it wasn't . I'm not admitting that it is true either though and an excerpt of a Swedish documentary on youtube does certainly not make it a fact.
It's part 1, not an excerpt. You can continue to watch the remaining parts of the documentary on Youtube. Regardless, what makes it a fact is not the documentary, but the evidence that the documentary points out.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: The myth I talked about is that "Sweden's justice system has considerable blind spots with regards to anything involving women". I just invalidated it because that statement is way to general. Anything involving women .... You might argue about some specific cases or scenarios where something like that could have happened. I saw no such thing.... In the real world, there is actually statistics debunking that myth which I have already given you earlier in this thread.
A Brief History of Swedish Sex 25 September 2010. Teenage couple breaks up.
Joakim, 18, spends an evening at his computer. He is in his boy’s room in his mother’s four room apartment. As usual he has spent some time with his girlfriend. She often stays over at his place as she has a lot of conflicts with her parents. The pair has sex practically every time they meet, oral as well as vaginal, which is no secret to the mother as the flat is not very sound proof. Sweden is still quite tolerant in these matters: Young people can have sex at home. The girlfriend herself says that they have a good relationship and that they like each other. They watch movies, meet friends and make trips on his moped. This evening she goes to bed while Joakim stays at his computer.
Before he goes to bed, he gets horny and wants to poke some fun at his sleeping girlfriend. He swings his penis in the air in front of her face and let’s it caress her between the lips to wake her up. She does, but dizzy with sleep she asks what he is doing, pushes him away, turns over and falls to sleep again.
Next day the girlfriend is picked up by her mother who brings her shopping for a journey she actually doesn’t want to make: Going to Finland with her parents on September 27 – 29. She would rather have stayed with Joakim. He calls her 2-3 times every day from his mother’s phone on her Finland tour to keep the girlfriend’s spirits up. When she returns from Finland she spends the night with him and they have sex as always.
On Saturday October 2, Joakim had to see his grandparents. He had promised to call his girlfriend the minute he returned home. He did not however, thinking it was too late. She is disappointed and wakes him up by a call the following morning and complains. The quarrel ends by Joakim saying that she has 24 hours to decide whether to continue seeing him. She says she does not want to stay together. Joakim returns her belongings.
5 April 2011. Joakim sentenced to prison for rape.
The sentence against Joakim, 18, is passed for the events on September 25, 2010. He gets four months’ imprisonment for rape and is convicted of paying damages to his ex-girlfriend. The girlfriend considered Joakim being the one breaking up although he only took her at her word and handed back her belongings.
The subsequent day she met her social worker to talk about her problems with her parents that she so far had been able to flee from to Joakim. She wondered what would happen if she would now report that Joakim one week earlier had woken her up with his penis between her lips. The social worker checked with the Police who said that in legal terms it could be a crime. The girl then reported her former boyfriend Joakim to them and asked for large damages. A chat conversation had been saved and used as evidence in court: “i put my cock in ur mouth once for 3 sec when u slept (…) did i force u to have it? it dont count as trying rape, just if i had continued, i stopped at once, i fucking tested it one time”
Three seconds of bodily touching between two persons in a relationship who normally have sex – including oral – every time they meet is however regarded as a serious crime in Sweden. It does not matter that they after this incident had sex as usual as soon as they were reunited after her trip to Finland. In the judgment one can read:
“Through the information it is proven that Joakim NNN at the time has put his erect penis in A’s mouth through improperly exploiting that she due to sleep was in a helpless state. The district court also finds that there has been a question of a sexual act that with with regard to the nature of the violation and the circumstances in general, is comparable to sexual intercourse. Joakim NNN is therefore guilty of rape (…) Rape according to Chapter 6, Article 1, second paragraph of the Penal Code carries a penalty of imprisonment for at least two years and a maximum of six years. If the offense under the circumstances is to be regarded as less serious, the sentence (…) is imprisonment not exceeding four years. If, in view of the circumstances , the crime is considered less aggravated, a sentence to imprisonment for at most four years shall, according the third paragraph, be imposed. (…) In this case, it has been the case of a short-term events. Joakim NNN has suspended his act as soon as A woke up and made it clear to him that she did not accept his actions. No violence or threat has been present. The District Court therefore finds that Joakim NNN shall be sentenced for rape under Chapter 6, Article 1, third paragraph of the Penal Code.”
If the proposal from the Center Party (c) in the Parliament on March 2, 2005, had won, 18-year-old Joakim would have been sentenced to two years’ imprisonment for his three-second contact between his and his girlfriend’s bodies that he immediately interrupted when she woke up, pushed him away and turned over to sleep again. If the current development of Justice policy proceeds it could very well be that ordinary bedroom behavior between two partners can lead to two years’ imprisonment. The ex-girlfriend demanded that Joakim pay 75,000 SEK (10,440 USD) in damages for the violation and 10,000 SEK (1,400 USD) for pain and suffering. The judge lowered this to 25,000 SEK (3,480 USD) and 5,000 SEK (700 USD) respectively. In the publicly available judgment the name, personal registration number, and address of the sentenced perpetrator Joakim is obviously written out. There is however no information whatsoever about the girlfriend, since her name is classified as secret, as always in rape cases in Sweden. We cannot even know her age. Due to her school situation (High School) she should be between 16 and 18. Age is not a case. She was in no way underage since the age of consent is 15 in Sweden.”
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Just like 99% of Assange's zombies.
Enough with the stupid ad-hominems already. I'm not even an Assange supporter, I'm just opposed to unjust judicial systems, but even if I were, it has no bearing on the argument at hand.
lol keep linking.. SOME legal experts want to do this, SOME legal experts want to do that, "SWEDEN" wants to ban standing urinals, but when i read it turns out thats not what it says at all. whats your point?
Nice of you to selectively ignore the evidence which you don't have an answer for.
The point, which wasn't addressed towards you, is that Assange has every reason to be wary of the Swedish judicial system with regards to a rape trial.
look at the cover for christs sake! sounds fair and balanced. and sure, you're no Assange supporter, just a concerned citizen.
Meanwhile in Sweden, hell, apparently we want to ban stand-up urinals! I wasn't aware. Oh wait, it turns out it wasn't Sweden, it turns out it was a suggestion raised by one local county politician from a party which represents roughly 5% of the electorate nationally.
the fact that you are so blatantly cherry-picking your "facts" to build a narrative that hardly corresponds to reality in the slightest is painfully obvious. i don't have to disprove your "evidence". you have to try again, and try harder.
Yeah sunprince , your "evidence" makes me giggle
Yeah, I'm sure it's hilarious to refuse to read it.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote:No-one takes the left party seriously, they have made a whole array of stupid law proposals. They even proposed a man-tax.... Most Swedes find this a never ending source of amusement. I could go on and on about this, lol. I'm sure you have political parties in the US proposing stupid shit all the time.
We do have stupid proposals, and they reveal the nature of who the acceptable targets are. For example, we get stupid proposals here regarding immigrants, which reveals the fact that public discourse and culture is slanted against immigrants here. Similarly, the fact that you have political parties making stupid proposals targeting men reveals that Sweden is (particularly) slanted against men, no surprise considering the "success" of Swedish feminism.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: You take stories and copy-paste them as evidence but you don't even say where it is from...
Sure I do. You just have shitty reading comprehension.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Furthermore, every example is cherry-picked to support your theory.
Since when were we supposed to provide examples against our own arguments? Are you going to start disproving yourself?
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: I recall a quite recent example where the court argued that a raped woman had given clear signs that she wanted to have sex with the guy by "dressing in a sexy way". The prosecutors and lawyers of the accused rapist went very hard at her and forced her to answer humiliating questions about very personal and intimate stuff related about her sex life . All this under oath of course. Does all Swedish rape trials disfavor the woman because of this ? Does the Swedish judicial system consist of only man chauvinist pigs?
Specifically note the passage: " .... What we do know is that Assange will receive fair treatment by Swedish legal institutions. And, yes, their respect for the rule of law extends to accusations of sexual offenses. As recently as a few years ago, the Swedish Supreme Court explicitly ruled that the same high standard of proof applied to other criminal allegations are to be applied in cases of suspected rape. Similar criticisms of the Swedish legal system are based largely on myths and misconceptions. The framework of Sweden’s criminal law with respect to sexual offenses is no different from most other countries’. I will not be sentenced for rape if my condom breaks during a sexual act. But, like in many other countries, I can be convicted of rape if I have sex with a sleeping or unconscious person. ...."
A single Swedish law professor's opinion is not an authoritative indicator of fact, nor is it immune from bias. The actual article is dubious, as he argues that it is a fact that the Swedish judicial system is fair, despite this being philosophically impossible (fairness is an opinion, not an objective fact like the 2+2 = 4). He also insists that Swedish judges will not be externally influenced, despite the presence of lay judges who are political appointees. Göran Lambertz, the former Chancellor of Justice, published a 2009 study which reveals major problems with the Swedish judicial system, especially where sexual offenses are concerned (8 out of 11 of the wrongful convictions in the study are due to sexual offenses).
Your unreasonable approach to this issue, mirrored by many Swedish posters in this thread, is a strong indicator that you've been brainwashed by the state feminism controlled media. And before you insist that's not the case, consider this article by legendary Swedish feminist journalist Helene Borgman. When a legendary feminist thinks that state feminism has run amok, that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with Sweden.
Why did you go through all the trouble to write all that when I said that I wouldn't discuss with you anymore.
Because some people here aren't morons, and will actually read and learn from my arguments.
On August 22 2012 05:42 one-one-one wrote: But since you are willing to waste your time like this at least you could have answered my question: Have you actually been to Sweden?
Complete logical fallacy that's irrelevant to the discussion.
On August 21 2012 06:04 one-one-one wrote: [quote]
That "most people" believe something doesn't necessarily mean that it is so. Obviously, some peoples opinion matter more than others. I feel a huge absence of source criticism in this case as blatant disinformation spread by biased sources is allowed to prevail. The same flawed arguments are brought up time and time again. Typically they are shaped in the mold of common techniques to argue by feelings like for example blaming the victim. Want proof - just go through the last 10-15 pages and tell me what you see.
I challenge you to find multiple examples of "victim blaming" in this thread. Disputing the accounts of "victims" or finding fault with the evidence is not the same thing as blaming the victims.
Many of them are mentioned in the second article in my post. Maybe my example was bad though, I might have confused things with other forums. But that doesn't mean that this thread is free from other types of similar techniques...
On August 21 2012 08:01 sunprince wrote:
On August 20 2012 18:43 one-one-one wrote: [quote]
This is a common myth being spread by the Assange cult. There is no evidence for this, only people using arguments based on their feelings about the Swedish law with regards to rape definitions , consent and such.
Sweden is one of the most feminist-dominated nations in the world. This isn't a myth, it's fact.
I never said that it wasn't . I'm not admitting that it is true either though and an excerpt of a Swedish documentary on youtube does certainly not make it a fact.
It's part 1, not an excerpt. You can continue to watch the remaining parts of the documentary on Youtube. Regardless, what makes it a fact is not the documentary, but the evidence that the documentary points out.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: The myth I talked about is that "Sweden's justice system has considerable blind spots with regards to anything involving women". I just invalidated it because that statement is way to general. Anything involving women .... You might argue about some specific cases or scenarios where something like that could have happened. I saw no such thing.... In the real world, there is actually statistics debunking that myth which I have already given you earlier in this thread.
A Brief History of Swedish Sex 25 September 2010. Teenage couple breaks up.
Joakim, 18, spends an evening at his computer. He is in his boy’s room in his mother’s four room apartment. As usual he has spent some time with his girlfriend. She often stays over at his place as she has a lot of conflicts with her parents. The pair has sex practically every time they meet, oral as well as vaginal, which is no secret to the mother as the flat is not very sound proof. Sweden is still quite tolerant in these matters: Young people can have sex at home. The girlfriend herself says that they have a good relationship and that they like each other. They watch movies, meet friends and make trips on his moped. This evening she goes to bed while Joakim stays at his computer.
Before he goes to bed, he gets horny and wants to poke some fun at his sleeping girlfriend. He swings his penis in the air in front of her face and let’s it caress her between the lips to wake her up. She does, but dizzy with sleep she asks what he is doing, pushes him away, turns over and falls to sleep again.
Next day the girlfriend is picked up by her mother who brings her shopping for a journey she actually doesn’t want to make: Going to Finland with her parents on September 27 – 29. She would rather have stayed with Joakim. He calls her 2-3 times every day from his mother’s phone on her Finland tour to keep the girlfriend’s spirits up. When she returns from Finland she spends the night with him and they have sex as always.
On Saturday October 2, Joakim had to see his grandparents. He had promised to call his girlfriend the minute he returned home. He did not however, thinking it was too late. She is disappointed and wakes him up by a call the following morning and complains. The quarrel ends by Joakim saying that she has 24 hours to decide whether to continue seeing him. She says she does not want to stay together. Joakim returns her belongings.
5 April 2011. Joakim sentenced to prison for rape.
The sentence against Joakim, 18, is passed for the events on September 25, 2010. He gets four months’ imprisonment for rape and is convicted of paying damages to his ex-girlfriend. The girlfriend considered Joakim being the one breaking up although he only took her at her word and handed back her belongings.
The subsequent day she met her social worker to talk about her problems with her parents that she so far had been able to flee from to Joakim. She wondered what would happen if she would now report that Joakim one week earlier had woken her up with his penis between her lips. The social worker checked with the Police who said that in legal terms it could be a crime. The girl then reported her former boyfriend Joakim to them and asked for large damages. A chat conversation had been saved and used as evidence in court: “i put my cock in ur mouth once for 3 sec when u slept (…) did i force u to have it? it dont count as trying rape, just if i had continued, i stopped at once, i fucking tested it one time”
Three seconds of bodily touching between two persons in a relationship who normally have sex – including oral – every time they meet is however regarded as a serious crime in Sweden. It does not matter that they after this incident had sex as usual as soon as they were reunited after her trip to Finland. In the judgment one can read:
“Through the information it is proven that Joakim NNN at the time has put his erect penis in A’s mouth through improperly exploiting that she due to sleep was in a helpless state. The district court also finds that there has been a question of a sexual act that with with regard to the nature of the violation and the circumstances in general, is comparable to sexual intercourse. Joakim NNN is therefore guilty of rape (…) Rape according to Chapter 6, Article 1, second paragraph of the Penal Code carries a penalty of imprisonment for at least two years and a maximum of six years. If the offense under the circumstances is to be regarded as less serious, the sentence (…) is imprisonment not exceeding four years. If, in view of the circumstances , the crime is considered less aggravated, a sentence to imprisonment for at most four years shall, according the third paragraph, be imposed. (…) In this case, it has been the case of a short-term events. Joakim NNN has suspended his act as soon as A woke up and made it clear to him that she did not accept his actions. No violence or threat has been present. The District Court therefore finds that Joakim NNN shall be sentenced for rape under Chapter 6, Article 1, third paragraph of the Penal Code.”
If the proposal from the Center Party (c) in the Parliament on March 2, 2005, had won, 18-year-old Joakim would have been sentenced to two years’ imprisonment for his three-second contact between his and his girlfriend’s bodies that he immediately interrupted when she woke up, pushed him away and turned over to sleep again. If the current development of Justice policy proceeds it could very well be that ordinary bedroom behavior between two partners can lead to two years’ imprisonment. The ex-girlfriend demanded that Joakim pay 75,000 SEK (10,440 USD) in damages for the violation and 10,000 SEK (1,400 USD) for pain and suffering. The judge lowered this to 25,000 SEK (3,480 USD) and 5,000 SEK (700 USD) respectively. In the publicly available judgment the name, personal registration number, and address of the sentenced perpetrator Joakim is obviously written out. There is however no information whatsoever about the girlfriend, since her name is classified as secret, as always in rape cases in Sweden. We cannot even know her age. Due to her school situation (High School) she should be between 16 and 18. Age is not a case. She was in no way underage since the age of consent is 15 in Sweden.”
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Just like 99% of Assange's zombies.
Enough with the stupid ad-hominems already. I'm not even an Assange supporter, I'm just opposed to unjust judicial systems, but even if I were, it has no bearing on the argument at hand.
lol keep linking.. SOME legal experts want to do this, SOME legal experts want to do that, "SWEDEN" wants to ban standing urinals, but when i read it turns out thats not what it says at all. whats your point?
Nice of you to selectively ignore the evidence which you don't have an answer for.
The point, which wasn't addressed towards you, is that Assange has every reason to be wary of the Swedish judicial system with regards to a rape trial.
look at the cover for christs sake! sounds fair and balanced. and sure, you're no Assange supporter, just a concerned citizen.
Meanwhile in Sweden, hell, apparently we want to ban stand-up urinals! I wasn't aware. Oh wait, it turns out it wasn't Sweden, it turns out it was a suggestion raised by one local county politician from a party which represents roughly 5% of the electorate nationally.
the fact that you are so blatantly cherry-picking your "facts" to build a narrative that hardly corresponds to reality in the slightest is painfully obvious. i don't have to disprove your "evidence". you have to try again, and try harder.
Yeah sunprince , your "evidence" makes me giggle
Yeah, I'm sure it's hilarious to refuse to read it.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote:No-one takes the left party seriously, they have made a whole array of stupid law proposals. They even proposed a man-tax.... Most Swedes find this a never ending source of amusement. I could go on and on about this, lol. I'm sure you have political parties in the US proposing stupid shit all the time.
We do have stupid proposals, and they reveal the nature of who the acceptable targets are. For example, we get stupid proposals here regarding immigrants, which reveals the fact that public discourse and culture is slanted against immigrants here. Similarly, the fact that you have political parties making stupid proposals targeting men reveals that Sweden is (particularly) slanted against men, no surprise considering the "success" of Swedish feminism.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: You take stories and copy-paste them as evidence but you don't even say where it is from...
Sure I do. You just have shitty reading comprehension.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Furthermore, every example is cherry-picked to support your theory.
Since when were we supposed to provide examples against our own arguments? Are you going to start disproving yourself?
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: I recall a quite recent example where the court argued that a raped woman had given clear signs that she wanted to have sex with the guy by "dressing in a sexy way". The prosecutors and lawyers of the accused rapist went very hard at her and forced her to answer humiliating questions about very personal and intimate stuff related about her sex life . All this under oath of course. Does all Swedish rape trials disfavor the woman because of this ? Does the Swedish judicial system consist of only man chauvinist pigs?
Specifically note the passage: " .... What we do know is that Assange will receive fair treatment by Swedish legal institutions. And, yes, their respect for the rule of law extends to accusations of sexual offenses. As recently as a few years ago, the Swedish Supreme Court explicitly ruled that the same high standard of proof applied to other criminal allegations are to be applied in cases of suspected rape. Similar criticisms of the Swedish legal system are based largely on myths and misconceptions. The framework of Sweden’s criminal law with respect to sexual offenses is no different from most other countries’. I will not be sentenced for rape if my condom breaks during a sexual act. But, like in many other countries, I can be convicted of rape if I have sex with a sleeping or unconscious person. ...."
A single Swedish law professor's opinion is not an authoritative indicator of fact, nor is it immune from bias. The actual article is dubious, as he argues that it is a fact that the Swedish judicial system is fair, despite this being philosophically impossible (fairness is an opinion, not an objective fact like the 2+2 = 4). He also insists that Swedish judges will not be externally influenced, despite the presence of lay judges who are political appointees. Göran Lambertz, the former Chancellor of Justice, published a 2009 study which reveals major problems with the Swedish judicial system, especially where sexual offenses are concerned (8 out of 11 of the wrongful convictions in the study are due to sexual offenses).
Your unreasonable approach to this issue, mirrored by many Swedish posters in this thread, is a strong indicator that you've been brainwashed by the state feminism controlled media. And before you insist that's not the case, consider this article by legendary Swedish feminist journalist Helene Borgman. When a legendary feminist thinks that state feminism has run amok, that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with Sweden.
Why did you go through all the trouble to write all that when I said that I wouldn't discuss with you anymore.
But since you are willing to waste your time like this at least you could have answered my question: Have you actually been to Sweden?
I rest my case.
Fantastic argument!
The fact that he has never been to a country SURELY invalidates any knowledge or opinions he has about legal systems or foreign policy for that country, even though knowledge of those things has nothing to do with your geographical location!
I challenge you to find multiple examples of "victim blaming" in this thread. Disputing the accounts of "victims" or finding fault with the evidence is not the same thing as blaming the victims.
Many of them are mentioned in the second article in my post. Maybe my example was bad though, I might have confused things with other forums. But that doesn't mean that this thread is free from other types of similar techniques...
On August 21 2012 08:01 sunprince wrote: [quote]
Sweden is one of the most feminist-dominated nations in the world. This isn't a myth, it's fact.
I never said that it wasn't . I'm not admitting that it is true either though and an excerpt of a Swedish documentary on youtube does certainly not make it a fact.
It's part 1, not an excerpt. You can continue to watch the remaining parts of the documentary on Youtube. Regardless, what makes it a fact is not the documentary, but the evidence that the documentary points out.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: The myth I talked about is that "Sweden's justice system has considerable blind spots with regards to anything involving women". I just invalidated it because that statement is way to general. Anything involving women .... You might argue about some specific cases or scenarios where something like that could have happened. I saw no such thing.... In the real world, there is actually statistics debunking that myth which I have already given you earlier in this thread.
A Brief History of Swedish Sex 25 September 2010. Teenage couple breaks up.
Joakim, 18, spends an evening at his computer. He is in his boy’s room in his mother’s four room apartment. As usual he has spent some time with his girlfriend. She often stays over at his place as she has a lot of conflicts with her parents. The pair has sex practically every time they meet, oral as well as vaginal, which is no secret to the mother as the flat is not very sound proof. Sweden is still quite tolerant in these matters: Young people can have sex at home. The girlfriend herself says that they have a good relationship and that they like each other. They watch movies, meet friends and make trips on his moped. This evening she goes to bed while Joakim stays at his computer.
Before he goes to bed, he gets horny and wants to poke some fun at his sleeping girlfriend. He swings his penis in the air in front of her face and let’s it caress her between the lips to wake her up. She does, but dizzy with sleep she asks what he is doing, pushes him away, turns over and falls to sleep again.
Next day the girlfriend is picked up by her mother who brings her shopping for a journey she actually doesn’t want to make: Going to Finland with her parents on September 27 – 29. She would rather have stayed with Joakim. He calls her 2-3 times every day from his mother’s phone on her Finland tour to keep the girlfriend’s spirits up. When she returns from Finland she spends the night with him and they have sex as always.
On Saturday October 2, Joakim had to see his grandparents. He had promised to call his girlfriend the minute he returned home. He did not however, thinking it was too late. She is disappointed and wakes him up by a call the following morning and complains. The quarrel ends by Joakim saying that she has 24 hours to decide whether to continue seeing him. She says she does not want to stay together. Joakim returns her belongings.
5 April 2011. Joakim sentenced to prison for rape.
The sentence against Joakim, 18, is passed for the events on September 25, 2010. He gets four months’ imprisonment for rape and is convicted of paying damages to his ex-girlfriend. The girlfriend considered Joakim being the one breaking up although he only took her at her word and handed back her belongings.
The subsequent day she met her social worker to talk about her problems with her parents that she so far had been able to flee from to Joakim. She wondered what would happen if she would now report that Joakim one week earlier had woken her up with his penis between her lips. The social worker checked with the Police who said that in legal terms it could be a crime. The girl then reported her former boyfriend Joakim to them and asked for large damages. A chat conversation had been saved and used as evidence in court: “i put my cock in ur mouth once for 3 sec when u slept (…) did i force u to have it? it dont count as trying rape, just if i had continued, i stopped at once, i fucking tested it one time”
Three seconds of bodily touching between two persons in a relationship who normally have sex – including oral – every time they meet is however regarded as a serious crime in Sweden. It does not matter that they after this incident had sex as usual as soon as they were reunited after her trip to Finland. In the judgment one can read:
“Through the information it is proven that Joakim NNN at the time has put his erect penis in A’s mouth through improperly exploiting that she due to sleep was in a helpless state. The district court also finds that there has been a question of a sexual act that with with regard to the nature of the violation and the circumstances in general, is comparable to sexual intercourse. Joakim NNN is therefore guilty of rape (…) Rape according to Chapter 6, Article 1, second paragraph of the Penal Code carries a penalty of imprisonment for at least two years and a maximum of six years. If the offense under the circumstances is to be regarded as less serious, the sentence (…) is imprisonment not exceeding four years. If, in view of the circumstances , the crime is considered less aggravated, a sentence to imprisonment for at most four years shall, according the third paragraph, be imposed. (…) In this case, it has been the case of a short-term events. Joakim NNN has suspended his act as soon as A woke up and made it clear to him that she did not accept his actions. No violence or threat has been present. The District Court therefore finds that Joakim NNN shall be sentenced for rape under Chapter 6, Article 1, third paragraph of the Penal Code.”
If the proposal from the Center Party (c) in the Parliament on March 2, 2005, had won, 18-year-old Joakim would have been sentenced to two years’ imprisonment for his three-second contact between his and his girlfriend’s bodies that he immediately interrupted when she woke up, pushed him away and turned over to sleep again. If the current development of Justice policy proceeds it could very well be that ordinary bedroom behavior between two partners can lead to two years’ imprisonment. The ex-girlfriend demanded that Joakim pay 75,000 SEK (10,440 USD) in damages for the violation and 10,000 SEK (1,400 USD) for pain and suffering. The judge lowered this to 25,000 SEK (3,480 USD) and 5,000 SEK (700 USD) respectively. In the publicly available judgment the name, personal registration number, and address of the sentenced perpetrator Joakim is obviously written out. There is however no information whatsoever about the girlfriend, since her name is classified as secret, as always in rape cases in Sweden. We cannot even know her age. Due to her school situation (High School) she should be between 16 and 18. Age is not a case. She was in no way underage since the age of consent is 15 in Sweden.”
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Just like 99% of Assange's zombies.
Enough with the stupid ad-hominems already. I'm not even an Assange supporter, I'm just opposed to unjust judicial systems, but even if I were, it has no bearing on the argument at hand.
lol keep linking.. SOME legal experts want to do this, SOME legal experts want to do that, "SWEDEN" wants to ban standing urinals, but when i read it turns out thats not what it says at all. whats your point?
Nice of you to selectively ignore the evidence which you don't have an answer for.
The point, which wasn't addressed towards you, is that Assange has every reason to be wary of the Swedish judicial system with regards to a rape trial.
look at the cover for christs sake! sounds fair and balanced. and sure, you're no Assange supporter, just a concerned citizen.
Meanwhile in Sweden, hell, apparently we want to ban stand-up urinals! I wasn't aware. Oh wait, it turns out it wasn't Sweden, it turns out it was a suggestion raised by one local county politician from a party which represents roughly 5% of the electorate nationally.
the fact that you are so blatantly cherry-picking your "facts" to build a narrative that hardly corresponds to reality in the slightest is painfully obvious. i don't have to disprove your "evidence". you have to try again, and try harder.
Yeah sunprince , your "evidence" makes me giggle
Yeah, I'm sure it's hilarious to refuse to read it.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote:No-one takes the left party seriously, they have made a whole array of stupid law proposals. They even proposed a man-tax.... Most Swedes find this a never ending source of amusement. I could go on and on about this, lol. I'm sure you have political parties in the US proposing stupid shit all the time.
We do have stupid proposals, and they reveal the nature of who the acceptable targets are. For example, we get stupid proposals here regarding immigrants, which reveals the fact that public discourse and culture is slanted against immigrants here. Similarly, the fact that you have political parties making stupid proposals targeting men reveals that Sweden is (particularly) slanted against men, no surprise considering the "success" of Swedish feminism.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: You take stories and copy-paste them as evidence but you don't even say where it is from...
Sure I do. You just have shitty reading comprehension.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Furthermore, every example is cherry-picked to support your theory.
Since when were we supposed to provide examples against our own arguments? Are you going to start disproving yourself?
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: I recall a quite recent example where the court argued that a raped woman had given clear signs that she wanted to have sex with the guy by "dressing in a sexy way". The prosecutors and lawyers of the accused rapist went very hard at her and forced her to answer humiliating questions about very personal and intimate stuff related about her sex life . All this under oath of course. Does all Swedish rape trials disfavor the woman because of this ? Does the Swedish judicial system consist of only man chauvinist pigs?
Specifically note the passage: " .... What we do know is that Assange will receive fair treatment by Swedish legal institutions. And, yes, their respect for the rule of law extends to accusations of sexual offenses. As recently as a few years ago, the Swedish Supreme Court explicitly ruled that the same high standard of proof applied to other criminal allegations are to be applied in cases of suspected rape. Similar criticisms of the Swedish legal system are based largely on myths and misconceptions. The framework of Sweden’s criminal law with respect to sexual offenses is no different from most other countries’. I will not be sentenced for rape if my condom breaks during a sexual act. But, like in many other countries, I can be convicted of rape if I have sex with a sleeping or unconscious person. ...."
A single Swedish law professor's opinion is not an authoritative indicator of fact, nor is it immune from bias. The actual article is dubious, as he argues that it is a fact that the Swedish judicial system is fair, despite this being philosophically impossible (fairness is an opinion, not an objective fact like the 2+2 = 4). He also insists that Swedish judges will not be externally influenced, despite the presence of lay judges who are political appointees. Göran Lambertz, the former Chancellor of Justice, published a 2009 study which reveals major problems with the Swedish judicial system, especially where sexual offenses are concerned (8 out of 11 of the wrongful convictions in the study are due to sexual offenses).
Your unreasonable approach to this issue, mirrored by many Swedish posters in this thread, is a strong indicator that you've been brainwashed by the state feminism controlled media. And before you insist that's not the case, consider this article by legendary Swedish feminist journalist Helene Borgman. When a legendary feminist thinks that state feminism has run amok, that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with Sweden.
Why did you go through all the trouble to write all that when I said that I wouldn't discuss with you anymore.
But since you are willing to waste your time like this at least you could have answered my question: Have you actually been to Sweden?
I rest my case.
Fantastic argument!
The fact that he has never been to a country SURELY invalidates any knowledge or opinions he has about legal systems or foreign policy for that country, even though knowledge of those things has nothing to do with your geographical location!
If he had been living here for a while I could tell you with 100% accuracy that he would get a more nuanced view on Sweden. He used this as a source of information for gods sake.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: [quote]
Many of them are mentioned in the second article in my post. Maybe my example was bad though, I might have confused things with other forums. But that doesn't mean that this thread is free from other types of similar techniques...
[quote]
I never said that it wasn't . I'm not admitting that it is true either though and an excerpt of a Swedish documentary on youtube does certainly not make it a fact.
It's part 1, not an excerpt. You can continue to watch the remaining parts of the documentary on Youtube. Regardless, what makes it a fact is not the documentary, but the evidence that the documentary points out.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: The myth I talked about is that "Sweden's justice system has considerable blind spots with regards to anything involving women". I just invalidated it because that statement is way to general. Anything involving women .... You might argue about some specific cases or scenarios where something like that could have happened. I saw no such thing.... In the real world, there is actually statistics debunking that myth which I have already given you earlier in this thread.
A Brief History of Swedish Sex 25 September 2010. Teenage couple breaks up.
Joakim, 18, spends an evening at his computer. He is in his boy’s room in his mother’s four room apartment. As usual he has spent some time with his girlfriend. She often stays over at his place as she has a lot of conflicts with her parents. The pair has sex practically every time they meet, oral as well as vaginal, which is no secret to the mother as the flat is not very sound proof. Sweden is still quite tolerant in these matters: Young people can have sex at home. The girlfriend herself says that they have a good relationship and that they like each other. They watch movies, meet friends and make trips on his moped. This evening she goes to bed while Joakim stays at his computer.
Before he goes to bed, he gets horny and wants to poke some fun at his sleeping girlfriend. He swings his penis in the air in front of her face and let’s it caress her between the lips to wake her up. She does, but dizzy with sleep she asks what he is doing, pushes him away, turns over and falls to sleep again.
Next day the girlfriend is picked up by her mother who brings her shopping for a journey she actually doesn’t want to make: Going to Finland with her parents on September 27 – 29. She would rather have stayed with Joakim. He calls her 2-3 times every day from his mother’s phone on her Finland tour to keep the girlfriend’s spirits up. When she returns from Finland she spends the night with him and they have sex as always.
On Saturday October 2, Joakim had to see his grandparents. He had promised to call his girlfriend the minute he returned home. He did not however, thinking it was too late. She is disappointed and wakes him up by a call the following morning and complains. The quarrel ends by Joakim saying that she has 24 hours to decide whether to continue seeing him. She says she does not want to stay together. Joakim returns her belongings.
5 April 2011. Joakim sentenced to prison for rape.
The sentence against Joakim, 18, is passed for the events on September 25, 2010. He gets four months’ imprisonment for rape and is convicted of paying damages to his ex-girlfriend. The girlfriend considered Joakim being the one breaking up although he only took her at her word and handed back her belongings.
The subsequent day she met her social worker to talk about her problems with her parents that she so far had been able to flee from to Joakim. She wondered what would happen if she would now report that Joakim one week earlier had woken her up with his penis between her lips. The social worker checked with the Police who said that in legal terms it could be a crime. The girl then reported her former boyfriend Joakim to them and asked for large damages. A chat conversation had been saved and used as evidence in court: “i put my cock in ur mouth once for 3 sec when u slept (…) did i force u to have it? it dont count as trying rape, just if i had continued, i stopped at once, i fucking tested it one time”
Three seconds of bodily touching between two persons in a relationship who normally have sex – including oral – every time they meet is however regarded as a serious crime in Sweden. It does not matter that they after this incident had sex as usual as soon as they were reunited after her trip to Finland. In the judgment one can read:
“Through the information it is proven that Joakim NNN at the time has put his erect penis in A’s mouth through improperly exploiting that she due to sleep was in a helpless state. The district court also finds that there has been a question of a sexual act that with with regard to the nature of the violation and the circumstances in general, is comparable to sexual intercourse. Joakim NNN is therefore guilty of rape (…) Rape according to Chapter 6, Article 1, second paragraph of the Penal Code carries a penalty of imprisonment for at least two years and a maximum of six years. If the offense under the circumstances is to be regarded as less serious, the sentence (…) is imprisonment not exceeding four years. If, in view of the circumstances , the crime is considered less aggravated, a sentence to imprisonment for at most four years shall, according the third paragraph, be imposed. (…) In this case, it has been the case of a short-term events. Joakim NNN has suspended his act as soon as A woke up and made it clear to him that she did not accept his actions. No violence or threat has been present. The District Court therefore finds that Joakim NNN shall be sentenced for rape under Chapter 6, Article 1, third paragraph of the Penal Code.”
If the proposal from the Center Party (c) in the Parliament on March 2, 2005, had won, 18-year-old Joakim would have been sentenced to two years’ imprisonment for his three-second contact between his and his girlfriend’s bodies that he immediately interrupted when she woke up, pushed him away and turned over to sleep again. If the current development of Justice policy proceeds it could very well be that ordinary bedroom behavior between two partners can lead to two years’ imprisonment. The ex-girlfriend demanded that Joakim pay 75,000 SEK (10,440 USD) in damages for the violation and 10,000 SEK (1,400 USD) for pain and suffering. The judge lowered this to 25,000 SEK (3,480 USD) and 5,000 SEK (700 USD) respectively. In the publicly available judgment the name, personal registration number, and address of the sentenced perpetrator Joakim is obviously written out. There is however no information whatsoever about the girlfriend, since her name is classified as secret, as always in rape cases in Sweden. We cannot even know her age. Due to her school situation (High School) she should be between 16 and 18. Age is not a case. She was in no way underage since the age of consent is 15 in Sweden.”
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Just like 99% of Assange's zombies.
Enough with the stupid ad-hominems already. I'm not even an Assange supporter, I'm just opposed to unjust judicial systems, but even if I were, it has no bearing on the argument at hand.
lol keep linking.. SOME legal experts want to do this, SOME legal experts want to do that, "SWEDEN" wants to ban standing urinals, but when i read it turns out thats not what it says at all. whats your point?
Nice of you to selectively ignore the evidence which you don't have an answer for.
The point, which wasn't addressed towards you, is that Assange has every reason to be wary of the Swedish judicial system with regards to a rape trial.
look at the cover for christs sake! sounds fair and balanced. and sure, you're no Assange supporter, just a concerned citizen.
Meanwhile in Sweden, hell, apparently we want to ban stand-up urinals! I wasn't aware. Oh wait, it turns out it wasn't Sweden, it turns out it was a suggestion raised by one local county politician from a party which represents roughly 5% of the electorate nationally.
the fact that you are so blatantly cherry-picking your "facts" to build a narrative that hardly corresponds to reality in the slightest is painfully obvious. i don't have to disprove your "evidence". you have to try again, and try harder.
Yeah sunprince , your "evidence" makes me giggle
Yeah, I'm sure it's hilarious to refuse to read it.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote:No-one takes the left party seriously, they have made a whole array of stupid law proposals. They even proposed a man-tax.... Most Swedes find this a never ending source of amusement. I could go on and on about this, lol. I'm sure you have political parties in the US proposing stupid shit all the time.
We do have stupid proposals, and they reveal the nature of who the acceptable targets are. For example, we get stupid proposals here regarding immigrants, which reveals the fact that public discourse and culture is slanted against immigrants here. Similarly, the fact that you have political parties making stupid proposals targeting men reveals that Sweden is (particularly) slanted against men, no surprise considering the "success" of Swedish feminism.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: You take stories and copy-paste them as evidence but you don't even say where it is from...
Sure I do. You just have shitty reading comprehension.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Furthermore, every example is cherry-picked to support your theory.
Since when were we supposed to provide examples against our own arguments? Are you going to start disproving yourself?
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: I recall a quite recent example where the court argued that a raped woman had given clear signs that she wanted to have sex with the guy by "dressing in a sexy way". The prosecutors and lawyers of the accused rapist went very hard at her and forced her to answer humiliating questions about very personal and intimate stuff related about her sex life . All this under oath of course. Does all Swedish rape trials disfavor the woman because of this ? Does the Swedish judicial system consist of only man chauvinist pigs?
Specifically note the passage: " .... What we do know is that Assange will receive fair treatment by Swedish legal institutions. And, yes, their respect for the rule of law extends to accusations of sexual offenses. As recently as a few years ago, the Swedish Supreme Court explicitly ruled that the same high standard of proof applied to other criminal allegations are to be applied in cases of suspected rape. Similar criticisms of the Swedish legal system are based largely on myths and misconceptions. The framework of Sweden’s criminal law with respect to sexual offenses is no different from most other countries’. I will not be sentenced for rape if my condom breaks during a sexual act. But, like in many other countries, I can be convicted of rape if I have sex with a sleeping or unconscious person. ...."
A single Swedish law professor's opinion is not an authoritative indicator of fact, nor is it immune from bias. The actual article is dubious, as he argues that it is a fact that the Swedish judicial system is fair, despite this being philosophically impossible (fairness is an opinion, not an objective fact like the 2+2 = 4). He also insists that Swedish judges will not be externally influenced, despite the presence of lay judges who are political appointees. Göran Lambertz, the former Chancellor of Justice, published a 2009 study which reveals major problems with the Swedish judicial system, especially where sexual offenses are concerned (8 out of 11 of the wrongful convictions in the study are due to sexual offenses).
Your unreasonable approach to this issue, mirrored by many Swedish posters in this thread, is a strong indicator that you've been brainwashed by the state feminism controlled media. And before you insist that's not the case, consider this article by legendary Swedish feminist journalist Helene Borgman. When a legendary feminist thinks that state feminism has run amok, that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with Sweden.
Why did you go through all the trouble to write all that when I said that I wouldn't discuss with you anymore.
But since you are willing to waste your time like this at least you could have answered my question: Have you actually been to Sweden?
I rest my case.
Fantastic argument!
The fact that he has never been to a country SURELY invalidates any knowledge or opinions he has about legal systems or foreign policy for that country, even though knowledge of those things has nothing to do with your geographical location!
If he had been living here for a while I could tell you with 100% accuracy that he would get a more nuanced view on Sweden. He used this as a source of information for gods sake.
Lol.
I like how you criticise him for using biased sources, and then say "If he had been living in Sweden (where you will be exposed to Swedish propaganda) he would be more likely to understand Swedish politics PROPERLY (read, like me)"
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: [quote]
Many of them are mentioned in the second article in my post. Maybe my example was bad though, I might have confused things with other forums. But that doesn't mean that this thread is free from other types of similar techniques...
[quote]
I never said that it wasn't . I'm not admitting that it is true either though and an excerpt of a Swedish documentary on youtube does certainly not make it a fact.
It's part 1, not an excerpt. You can continue to watch the remaining parts of the documentary on Youtube. Regardless, what makes it a fact is not the documentary, but the evidence that the documentary points out.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: The myth I talked about is that "Sweden's justice system has considerable blind spots with regards to anything involving women". I just invalidated it because that statement is way to general. Anything involving women .... You might argue about some specific cases or scenarios where something like that could have happened. I saw no such thing.... In the real world, there is actually statistics debunking that myth which I have already given you earlier in this thread.
A Brief History of Swedish Sex 25 September 2010. Teenage couple breaks up.
Joakim, 18, spends an evening at his computer. He is in his boy’s room in his mother’s four room apartment. As usual he has spent some time with his girlfriend. She often stays over at his place as she has a lot of conflicts with her parents. The pair has sex practically every time they meet, oral as well as vaginal, which is no secret to the mother as the flat is not very sound proof. Sweden is still quite tolerant in these matters: Young people can have sex at home. The girlfriend herself says that they have a good relationship and that they like each other. They watch movies, meet friends and make trips on his moped. This evening she goes to bed while Joakim stays at his computer.
Before he goes to bed, he gets horny and wants to poke some fun at his sleeping girlfriend. He swings his penis in the air in front of her face and let’s it caress her between the lips to wake her up. She does, but dizzy with sleep she asks what he is doing, pushes him away, turns over and falls to sleep again.
Next day the girlfriend is picked up by her mother who brings her shopping for a journey she actually doesn’t want to make: Going to Finland with her parents on September 27 – 29. She would rather have stayed with Joakim. He calls her 2-3 times every day from his mother’s phone on her Finland tour to keep the girlfriend’s spirits up. When she returns from Finland she spends the night with him and they have sex as always.
On Saturday October 2, Joakim had to see his grandparents. He had promised to call his girlfriend the minute he returned home. He did not however, thinking it was too late. She is disappointed and wakes him up by a call the following morning and complains. The quarrel ends by Joakim saying that she has 24 hours to decide whether to continue seeing him. She says she does not want to stay together. Joakim returns her belongings.
5 April 2011. Joakim sentenced to prison for rape.
The sentence against Joakim, 18, is passed for the events on September 25, 2010. He gets four months’ imprisonment for rape and is convicted of paying damages to his ex-girlfriend. The girlfriend considered Joakim being the one breaking up although he only took her at her word and handed back her belongings.
The subsequent day she met her social worker to talk about her problems with her parents that she so far had been able to flee from to Joakim. She wondered what would happen if she would now report that Joakim one week earlier had woken her up with his penis between her lips. The social worker checked with the Police who said that in legal terms it could be a crime. The girl then reported her former boyfriend Joakim to them and asked for large damages. A chat conversation had been saved and used as evidence in court: “i put my cock in ur mouth once for 3 sec when u slept (…) did i force u to have it? it dont count as trying rape, just if i had continued, i stopped at once, i fucking tested it one time”
Three seconds of bodily touching between two persons in a relationship who normally have sex – including oral – every time they meet is however regarded as a serious crime in Sweden. It does not matter that they after this incident had sex as usual as soon as they were reunited after her trip to Finland. In the judgment one can read:
“Through the information it is proven that Joakim NNN at the time has put his erect penis in A’s mouth through improperly exploiting that she due to sleep was in a helpless state. The district court also finds that there has been a question of a sexual act that with with regard to the nature of the violation and the circumstances in general, is comparable to sexual intercourse. Joakim NNN is therefore guilty of rape (…) Rape according to Chapter 6, Article 1, second paragraph of the Penal Code carries a penalty of imprisonment for at least two years and a maximum of six years. If the offense under the circumstances is to be regarded as less serious, the sentence (…) is imprisonment not exceeding four years. If, in view of the circumstances , the crime is considered less aggravated, a sentence to imprisonment for at most four years shall, according the third paragraph, be imposed. (…) In this case, it has been the case of a short-term events. Joakim NNN has suspended his act as soon as A woke up and made it clear to him that she did not accept his actions. No violence or threat has been present. The District Court therefore finds that Joakim NNN shall be sentenced for rape under Chapter 6, Article 1, third paragraph of the Penal Code.”
If the proposal from the Center Party (c) in the Parliament on March 2, 2005, had won, 18-year-old Joakim would have been sentenced to two years’ imprisonment for his three-second contact between his and his girlfriend’s bodies that he immediately interrupted when she woke up, pushed him away and turned over to sleep again. If the current development of Justice policy proceeds it could very well be that ordinary bedroom behavior between two partners can lead to two years’ imprisonment. The ex-girlfriend demanded that Joakim pay 75,000 SEK (10,440 USD) in damages for the violation and 10,000 SEK (1,400 USD) for pain and suffering. The judge lowered this to 25,000 SEK (3,480 USD) and 5,000 SEK (700 USD) respectively. In the publicly available judgment the name, personal registration number, and address of the sentenced perpetrator Joakim is obviously written out. There is however no information whatsoever about the girlfriend, since her name is classified as secret, as always in rape cases in Sweden. We cannot even know her age. Due to her school situation (High School) she should be between 16 and 18. Age is not a case. She was in no way underage since the age of consent is 15 in Sweden.”
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Just like 99% of Assange's zombies.
Enough with the stupid ad-hominems already. I'm not even an Assange supporter, I'm just opposed to unjust judicial systems, but even if I were, it has no bearing on the argument at hand.
lol keep linking.. SOME legal experts want to do this, SOME legal experts want to do that, "SWEDEN" wants to ban standing urinals, but when i read it turns out thats not what it says at all. whats your point?
Nice of you to selectively ignore the evidence which you don't have an answer for.
The point, which wasn't addressed towards you, is that Assange has every reason to be wary of the Swedish judicial system with regards to a rape trial.
look at the cover for christs sake! sounds fair and balanced. and sure, you're no Assange supporter, just a concerned citizen.
Meanwhile in Sweden, hell, apparently we want to ban stand-up urinals! I wasn't aware. Oh wait, it turns out it wasn't Sweden, it turns out it was a suggestion raised by one local county politician from a party which represents roughly 5% of the electorate nationally.
the fact that you are so blatantly cherry-picking your "facts" to build a narrative that hardly corresponds to reality in the slightest is painfully obvious. i don't have to disprove your "evidence". you have to try again, and try harder.
Yeah sunprince , your "evidence" makes me giggle
Yeah, I'm sure it's hilarious to refuse to read it.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote:No-one takes the left party seriously, they have made a whole array of stupid law proposals. They even proposed a man-tax.... Most Swedes find this a never ending source of amusement. I could go on and on about this, lol. I'm sure you have political parties in the US proposing stupid shit all the time.
We do have stupid proposals, and they reveal the nature of who the acceptable targets are. For example, we get stupid proposals here regarding immigrants, which reveals the fact that public discourse and culture is slanted against immigrants here. Similarly, the fact that you have political parties making stupid proposals targeting men reveals that Sweden is (particularly) slanted against men, no surprise considering the "success" of Swedish feminism.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: You take stories and copy-paste them as evidence but you don't even say where it is from...
Sure I do. You just have shitty reading comprehension.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Furthermore, every example is cherry-picked to support your theory.
Since when were we supposed to provide examples against our own arguments? Are you going to start disproving yourself?
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: I recall a quite recent example where the court argued that a raped woman had given clear signs that she wanted to have sex with the guy by "dressing in a sexy way". The prosecutors and lawyers of the accused rapist went very hard at her and forced her to answer humiliating questions about very personal and intimate stuff related about her sex life . All this under oath of course. Does all Swedish rape trials disfavor the woman because of this ? Does the Swedish judicial system consist of only man chauvinist pigs?
Specifically note the passage: " .... What we do know is that Assange will receive fair treatment by Swedish legal institutions. And, yes, their respect for the rule of law extends to accusations of sexual offenses. As recently as a few years ago, the Swedish Supreme Court explicitly ruled that the same high standard of proof applied to other criminal allegations are to be applied in cases of suspected rape. Similar criticisms of the Swedish legal system are based largely on myths and misconceptions. The framework of Sweden’s criminal law with respect to sexual offenses is no different from most other countries’. I will not be sentenced for rape if my condom breaks during a sexual act. But, like in many other countries, I can be convicted of rape if I have sex with a sleeping or unconscious person. ...."
A single Swedish law professor's opinion is not an authoritative indicator of fact, nor is it immune from bias. The actual article is dubious, as he argues that it is a fact that the Swedish judicial system is fair, despite this being philosophically impossible (fairness is an opinion, not an objective fact like the 2+2 = 4). He also insists that Swedish judges will not be externally influenced, despite the presence of lay judges who are political appointees. Göran Lambertz, the former Chancellor of Justice, published a 2009 study which reveals major problems with the Swedish judicial system, especially where sexual offenses are concerned (8 out of 11 of the wrongful convictions in the study are due to sexual offenses).
Your unreasonable approach to this issue, mirrored by many Swedish posters in this thread, is a strong indicator that you've been brainwashed by the state feminism controlled media. And before you insist that's not the case, consider this article by legendary Swedish feminist journalist Helene Borgman. When a legendary feminist thinks that state feminism has run amok, that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with Sweden.
Why did you go through all the trouble to write all that when I said that I wouldn't discuss with you anymore.
But since you are willing to waste your time like this at least you could have answered my question: Have you actually been to Sweden?
I rest my case.
Fantastic argument!
The fact that he has never been to a country SURELY invalidates any knowledge or opinions he has about legal systems or foreign policy for that country, even though knowledge of those things has nothing to do with your geographical location!
If he had been living here for a while I could tell you with 100% accuracy that he would get a more nuanced view on Sweden.
A more propaganda-influenced view, you mean.
On August 22 2012 05:59 one-one-one wrote: He used this as a source of information for gods sake.
If there are any factual inaccuracies in that book you would like to point out, feel free to do so. Otherwise, you once again have no logical argument.
I open this thread and instantly I am bombarded with users talking about how Sweden is brainwashing people with statefeminism and feministic brainwash propaganda. What is going on here?
On August 21 2012 23:11 accela wrote: Iam sorry but who exactly told you that it's OK to extradite him at US even if they promise not to torture or kill Assange?
They might just keep him in isolation for the rest of his life.
There is a theoretical chance to do just that. Imagine that he was just a random Australian dude visiting Sweden and that Sweden got an extradition request from the USA for an alleged minor crime like theft or something. In that case Sweden would be obliged to extradite him to the US by agreement.
In the case that the US should accuse Julian Assange of a crime less severe than espionage or for instigating Brian Manning to commit espionage. If the crime is something minor Sweden would by the same agreement be obliged to hand him over.
But there is a fundamental difference. Assange is not just some random guy. There is a real risk that he wouldn't get a fair trial or that there are hidden motives behind such extradition request.
And then again, it has to be approved by the UK and then also the European court , and as I asked previously there should be a chance that his granted asylum request gives him free passage to Ecuador before any such thing could happen.
The only thing Julian Assange has to worry about here is that he is accused of rape.
And what if he gets a fair trial without being tortured or face a death sentence but still send him in prison for life?
Do you realize how funny your post sounds?
Pretty sure not as much funny as the excuses you trying to give for not questioning the guy for 2 years.
Now, the point im trying to make FYI is the very heart of the whole extradition battle from the very beginning.
If Sweden treats the extradition request by US the same way UK did like not to evaluate the accusations the country that seeks the extradition is doing but only to verify the legality of the extradition request itself e.g "all the papers looking good, he is yours, handcuffed and silenced" then it's pretty sure that he will be extradited to US given as many promises as you like.
Fair trail...whistleblower...life in prison? Quite some jumps there
Four Corners has their inquiry into it on youtube and I must say, they make it quite hard to disagree with them, and I couldn't really pick up any real spin / substantial bias or anything. And Four Corners seem to be fairly esteemed?
Sunprince, since you apparently possess a copy of this book, can you give us more actual statistical data? For example the stat you gave about 8/10 cases where someone's wrongly convicted are rape cases is a good one, but quite possibly negated by the fact that Sweden has the highest rape conviction per capita in the EU to begin with... And that rape convictions are more likely to be later overturned than other types of crimes. Taking those factors into account, your stat may be perfectly in line with expected norms.
Most of the other evidence I've seen you present has been anecdotal.
It's part 1, not an excerpt. You can continue to watch the remaining parts of the documentary on Youtube. Regardless, what makes it a fact is not the documentary, but the evidence that the documentary points out.
Enough with the stupid ad-hominems already. I'm not even an Assange supporter, I'm just opposed to unjust judicial systems, but even if I were, it has no bearing on the argument at hand.
lol keep linking.. SOME legal experts want to do this, SOME legal experts want to do that, "SWEDEN" wants to ban standing urinals, but when i read it turns out thats not what it says at all. whats your point?
Nice of you to selectively ignore the evidence which you don't have an answer for.
The point, which wasn't addressed towards you, is that Assange has every reason to be wary of the Swedish judicial system with regards to a rape trial.
look at the cover for christs sake! sounds fair and balanced. and sure, you're no Assange supporter, just a concerned citizen.
Meanwhile in Sweden, hell, apparently we want to ban stand-up urinals! I wasn't aware. Oh wait, it turns out it wasn't Sweden, it turns out it was a suggestion raised by one local county politician from a party which represents roughly 5% of the electorate nationally.
the fact that you are so blatantly cherry-picking your "facts" to build a narrative that hardly corresponds to reality in the slightest is painfully obvious. i don't have to disprove your "evidence". you have to try again, and try harder.
Yeah sunprince , your "evidence" makes me giggle
Yeah, I'm sure it's hilarious to refuse to read it.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote:No-one takes the left party seriously, they have made a whole array of stupid law proposals. They even proposed a man-tax.... Most Swedes find this a never ending source of amusement. I could go on and on about this, lol. I'm sure you have political parties in the US proposing stupid shit all the time.
We do have stupid proposals, and they reveal the nature of who the acceptable targets are. For example, we get stupid proposals here regarding immigrants, which reveals the fact that public discourse and culture is slanted against immigrants here. Similarly, the fact that you have political parties making stupid proposals targeting men reveals that Sweden is (particularly) slanted against men, no surprise considering the "success" of Swedish feminism.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: You take stories and copy-paste them as evidence but you don't even say where it is from...
Sure I do. You just have shitty reading comprehension.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Furthermore, every example is cherry-picked to support your theory.
Since when were we supposed to provide examples against our own arguments? Are you going to start disproving yourself?
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: I recall a quite recent example where the court argued that a raped woman had given clear signs that she wanted to have sex with the guy by "dressing in a sexy way". The prosecutors and lawyers of the accused rapist went very hard at her and forced her to answer humiliating questions about very personal and intimate stuff related about her sex life . All this under oath of course. Does all Swedish rape trials disfavor the woman because of this ? Does the Swedish judicial system consist of only man chauvinist pigs?
Specifically note the passage: " .... What we do know is that Assange will receive fair treatment by Swedish legal institutions. And, yes, their respect for the rule of law extends to accusations of sexual offenses. As recently as a few years ago, the Swedish Supreme Court explicitly ruled that the same high standard of proof applied to other criminal allegations are to be applied in cases of suspected rape. Similar criticisms of the Swedish legal system are based largely on myths and misconceptions. The framework of Sweden’s criminal law with respect to sexual offenses is no different from most other countries’. I will not be sentenced for rape if my condom breaks during a sexual act. But, like in many other countries, I can be convicted of rape if I have sex with a sleeping or unconscious person. ...."
A single Swedish law professor's opinion is not an authoritative indicator of fact, nor is it immune from bias. The actual article is dubious, as he argues that it is a fact that the Swedish judicial system is fair, despite this being philosophically impossible (fairness is an opinion, not an objective fact like the 2+2 = 4). He also insists that Swedish judges will not be externally influenced, despite the presence of lay judges who are political appointees. Göran Lambertz, the former Chancellor of Justice, published a 2009 study which reveals major problems with the Swedish judicial system, especially where sexual offenses are concerned (8 out of 11 of the wrongful convictions in the study are due to sexual offenses).
Your unreasonable approach to this issue, mirrored by many Swedish posters in this thread, is a strong indicator that you've been brainwashed by the state feminism controlled media. And before you insist that's not the case, consider this article by legendary Swedish feminist journalist Helene Borgman. When a legendary feminist thinks that state feminism has run amok, that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with Sweden.
Why did you go through all the trouble to write all that when I said that I wouldn't discuss with you anymore.
But since you are willing to waste your time like this at least you could have answered my question: Have you actually been to Sweden?
I rest my case.
Fantastic argument!
The fact that he has never been to a country SURELY invalidates any knowledge or opinions he has about legal systems or foreign policy for that country, even though knowledge of those things has nothing to do with your geographical location!
If he had been living here for a while I could tell you with 100% accuracy that he would get a more nuanced view on Sweden. He used this as a source of information for gods sake.
Lol.
I like how you criticise him for using biased sources, and then say "If he had been living in Sweden (where you will be exposed to Swedish propaganda) he would be more likely to understand Swedish politics PROPERLY (read, like me)"
It is not about understanding Swedish politics properly but the lack of knowledge needed to have a basic level of source-criticism. Although there are many ways to gather this knowledge, none of them are more effective than to immerse yourself at location in the country of interest.
I learnt a whole lot in 10 days only during my only trip to USA. But do you see me in threads about US society, politics or legal system lecturing Americans as if I actually knew something?
Yeah, the Swedish propaganda must have really gotten to me. I am totally whipped by the feminist rule, lol. Here in Sweden all my friends consider my opinion about things to generally be quite politically incorrect. Maybe me holding my head high about the quality of the Swedish legal system could be affected by "propaganda", but independent studies puts the Scandinavian countries, including Sweden, at the very top. Way above the US and UK. I could flip it around and say that since the legal system in your countries clearly are inferior to the Swedish system you lack the ability to assess the quality of it, but that would be as silly an argument as your talk about propaganda is.
Before you accuse me of narrow mindedness and ignorance which you likely will do, keep in mind that we are having this argument in English. English is your mother tongue, while mine isn't. Do you think I gathered my English skills without learning a lot about the UK and US in the process? My knowledge about your countries is likely at least an order of magnitude bigger than your gathered knowledge about the country you are interested in only because your hero Julian Assange managed to fuck up here and is trying to get out of it by acting like a kid playing hide-and-seek while having his minions spread gross misinformation about its society and legal systems. Talk about propaganda, lol. And again, do you see me lecturing American and British people about their own domestic shit ?
On August 21 2012 10:39 Dundron2000 wrote: [quote]
lol keep linking.. SOME legal experts want to do this, SOME legal experts want to do that, "SWEDEN" wants to ban standing urinals, but when i read it turns out thats not what it says at all. whats your point?
Nice of you to selectively ignore the evidence which you don't have an answer for.
The point, which wasn't addressed towards you, is that Assange has every reason to be wary of the Swedish judicial system with regards to a rape trial.
look at the cover for christs sake! sounds fair and balanced. and sure, you're no Assange supporter, just a concerned citizen.
Meanwhile in Sweden, hell, apparently we want to ban stand-up urinals! I wasn't aware. Oh wait, it turns out it wasn't Sweden, it turns out it was a suggestion raised by one local county politician from a party which represents roughly 5% of the electorate nationally.
the fact that you are so blatantly cherry-picking your "facts" to build a narrative that hardly corresponds to reality in the slightest is painfully obvious. i don't have to disprove your "evidence". you have to try again, and try harder.
Yeah sunprince , your "evidence" makes me giggle
Yeah, I'm sure it's hilarious to refuse to read it.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote:No-one takes the left party seriously, they have made a whole array of stupid law proposals. They even proposed a man-tax.... Most Swedes find this a never ending source of amusement. I could go on and on about this, lol. I'm sure you have political parties in the US proposing stupid shit all the time.
We do have stupid proposals, and they reveal the nature of who the acceptable targets are. For example, we get stupid proposals here regarding immigrants, which reveals the fact that public discourse and culture is slanted against immigrants here. Similarly, the fact that you have political parties making stupid proposals targeting men reveals that Sweden is (particularly) slanted against men, no surprise considering the "success" of Swedish feminism.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: You take stories and copy-paste them as evidence but you don't even say where it is from...
Sure I do. You just have shitty reading comprehension.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Furthermore, every example is cherry-picked to support your theory.
Since when were we supposed to provide examples against our own arguments? Are you going to start disproving yourself?
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: I recall a quite recent example where the court argued that a raped woman had given clear signs that she wanted to have sex with the guy by "dressing in a sexy way". The prosecutors and lawyers of the accused rapist went very hard at her and forced her to answer humiliating questions about very personal and intimate stuff related about her sex life . All this under oath of course. Does all Swedish rape trials disfavor the woman because of this ? Does the Swedish judicial system consist of only man chauvinist pigs?
Specifically note the passage: " .... What we do know is that Assange will receive fair treatment by Swedish legal institutions. And, yes, their respect for the rule of law extends to accusations of sexual offenses. As recently as a few years ago, the Swedish Supreme Court explicitly ruled that the same high standard of proof applied to other criminal allegations are to be applied in cases of suspected rape. Similar criticisms of the Swedish legal system are based largely on myths and misconceptions. The framework of Sweden’s criminal law with respect to sexual offenses is no different from most other countries’. I will not be sentenced for rape if my condom breaks during a sexual act. But, like in many other countries, I can be convicted of rape if I have sex with a sleeping or unconscious person. ...."
A single Swedish law professor's opinion is not an authoritative indicator of fact, nor is it immune from bias. The actual article is dubious, as he argues that it is a fact that the Swedish judicial system is fair, despite this being philosophically impossible (fairness is an opinion, not an objective fact like the 2+2 = 4). He also insists that Swedish judges will not be externally influenced, despite the presence of lay judges who are political appointees. Göran Lambertz, the former Chancellor of Justice, published a 2009 study which reveals major problems with the Swedish judicial system, especially where sexual offenses are concerned (8 out of 11 of the wrongful convictions in the study are due to sexual offenses).
Your unreasonable approach to this issue, mirrored by many Swedish posters in this thread, is a strong indicator that you've been brainwashed by the state feminism controlled media. And before you insist that's not the case, consider this article by legendary Swedish feminist journalist Helene Borgman. When a legendary feminist thinks that state feminism has run amok, that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with Sweden.
Why did you go through all the trouble to write all that when I said that I wouldn't discuss with you anymore.
But since you are willing to waste your time like this at least you could have answered my question: Have you actually been to Sweden?
I rest my case.
Fantastic argument!
The fact that he has never been to a country SURELY invalidates any knowledge or opinions he has about legal systems or foreign policy for that country, even though knowledge of those things has nothing to do with your geographical location!
If he had been living here for a while I could tell you with 100% accuracy that he would get a more nuanced view on Sweden. He used this as a source of information for gods sake.
Lol.
I like how you criticise him for using biased sources, and then say "If he had been living in Sweden (where you will be exposed to Swedish propaganda) he would be more likely to understand Swedish politics PROPERLY (read, like me)"
It is not about understanding Swedish politics properly but the lack of knowledge needed to have a basic level of source-criticism. Although there are many ways to gather this knowledge, none of them are more effective than to immerse yourself at location in the country of interest.
I learnt a whole lot in 10 days only during my only trip to USA. But do you see me in threads about US society, politics or legal system lecturing Americans as if I actually knew something?
Yeah, the Swedish propaganda must have really gotten to me. I am totally whipped by the feminist rule, lol. Here in Sweden all my friends consider my opinion about things to generally be quite politically incorrect. Maybe me holding my head high about the quality of the Swedish legal system could be affected by "propaganda", but independent studies puts the Scandinavian countries, including Sweden, at the very top. Way above the US and UK. I could flip it around and say that since the legal system in your countries clearly are inferior to the Swedish system you lack the ability to assess the quality of it, but that would be as silly an argument as your talk about propaganda is.
Before you accuse me of narrow mindedness and ignorance which you likely will do, keep in mind that we are having this argument in English. English is your mother tongue, while mine isn't. Do you think I gathered my English skills without learning a lot about the UK and US in the process? My knowledge about your countries is likely at least an order of magnitude bigger than your gathered knowledge about the country you are interested in only because your hero Julian Assange managed to fuck up here and is trying to get out of it by acting like a kid playing hide-and-seek while having his minions spread gross misinformation about its society and legal systems. Talk about propaganda, lol. And again, do you see me lecturing American and British people about their own domestic shit ?
You are very rude and assume a lot. I have been to Norway/Finland/Denmark and Sweeden and have friends in each of these countries just so you know. The UK and the US are very different, just so you know. There is propaganda in EVERY country, if you think there isn't in your's or that you are not affected by it. You are very wrong. I didnt say anything about feminism, not living in Sweden/going to the schools there I couldn't guess what the propaganda is based on or aimed at.
Julian Assange is not my hero, he is a man who has undeniably dodgy allegations made against him at a fairly suspicious time.
Imagine IF you were him, and IF you were innocent, yet these strange extradition demands are coming? Would you not be suspicious?
Note: The allegations being dodgy does not make them obviously untrue, but it does make them dodgy and suspicious in a way that could have easily been avoided.
Nice of you to selectively ignore the evidence which you don't have an answer for.
The point, which wasn't addressed towards you, is that Assange has every reason to be wary of the Swedish judicial system with regards to a rape trial.
look at the cover for christs sake! sounds fair and balanced. and sure, you're no Assange supporter, just a concerned citizen.
Meanwhile in Sweden, hell, apparently we want to ban stand-up urinals! I wasn't aware. Oh wait, it turns out it wasn't Sweden, it turns out it was a suggestion raised by one local county politician from a party which represents roughly 5% of the electorate nationally.
the fact that you are so blatantly cherry-picking your "facts" to build a narrative that hardly corresponds to reality in the slightest is painfully obvious. i don't have to disprove your "evidence". you have to try again, and try harder.
Yeah sunprince , your "evidence" makes me giggle
Yeah, I'm sure it's hilarious to refuse to read it.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote:No-one takes the left party seriously, they have made a whole array of stupid law proposals. They even proposed a man-tax.... Most Swedes find this a never ending source of amusement. I could go on and on about this, lol. I'm sure you have political parties in the US proposing stupid shit all the time.
We do have stupid proposals, and they reveal the nature of who the acceptable targets are. For example, we get stupid proposals here regarding immigrants, which reveals the fact that public discourse and culture is slanted against immigrants here. Similarly, the fact that you have political parties making stupid proposals targeting men reveals that Sweden is (particularly) slanted against men, no surprise considering the "success" of Swedish feminism.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: You take stories and copy-paste them as evidence but you don't even say where it is from...
Sure I do. You just have shitty reading comprehension.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Furthermore, every example is cherry-picked to support your theory.
Since when were we supposed to provide examples against our own arguments? Are you going to start disproving yourself?
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: I recall a quite recent example where the court argued that a raped woman had given clear signs that she wanted to have sex with the guy by "dressing in a sexy way". The prosecutors and lawyers of the accused rapist went very hard at her and forced her to answer humiliating questions about very personal and intimate stuff related about her sex life . All this under oath of course. Does all Swedish rape trials disfavor the woman because of this ? Does the Swedish judicial system consist of only man chauvinist pigs?
Specifically note the passage: " .... What we do know is that Assange will receive fair treatment by Swedish legal institutions. And, yes, their respect for the rule of law extends to accusations of sexual offenses. As recently as a few years ago, the Swedish Supreme Court explicitly ruled that the same high standard of proof applied to other criminal allegations are to be applied in cases of suspected rape. Similar criticisms of the Swedish legal system are based largely on myths and misconceptions. The framework of Sweden’s criminal law with respect to sexual offenses is no different from most other countries’. I will not be sentenced for rape if my condom breaks during a sexual act. But, like in many other countries, I can be convicted of rape if I have sex with a sleeping or unconscious person. ...."
A single Swedish law professor's opinion is not an authoritative indicator of fact, nor is it immune from bias. The actual article is dubious, as he argues that it is a fact that the Swedish judicial system is fair, despite this being philosophically impossible (fairness is an opinion, not an objective fact like the 2+2 = 4). He also insists that Swedish judges will not be externally influenced, despite the presence of lay judges who are political appointees. Göran Lambertz, the former Chancellor of Justice, published a 2009 study which reveals major problems with the Swedish judicial system, especially where sexual offenses are concerned (8 out of 11 of the wrongful convictions in the study are due to sexual offenses).
Your unreasonable approach to this issue, mirrored by many Swedish posters in this thread, is a strong indicator that you've been brainwashed by the state feminism controlled media. And before you insist that's not the case, consider this article by legendary Swedish feminist journalist Helene Borgman. When a legendary feminist thinks that state feminism has run amok, that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with Sweden.
Why did you go through all the trouble to write all that when I said that I wouldn't discuss with you anymore.
But since you are willing to waste your time like this at least you could have answered my question: Have you actually been to Sweden?
I rest my case.
Fantastic argument!
The fact that he has never been to a country SURELY invalidates any knowledge or opinions he has about legal systems or foreign policy for that country, even though knowledge of those things has nothing to do with your geographical location!
If he had been living here for a while I could tell you with 100% accuracy that he would get a more nuanced view on Sweden. He used this as a source of information for gods sake.
Lol.
I like how you criticise him for using biased sources, and then say "If he had been living in Sweden (where you will be exposed to Swedish propaganda) he would be more likely to understand Swedish politics PROPERLY (read, like me)"
It is not about understanding Swedish politics properly but the lack of knowledge needed to have a basic level of source-criticism. Although there are many ways to gather this knowledge, none of them are more effective than to immerse yourself at location in the country of interest.
I learnt a whole lot in 10 days only during my only trip to USA. But do you see me in threads about US society, politics or legal system lecturing Americans as if I actually knew something?
Yeah, the Swedish propaganda must have really gotten to me. I am totally whipped by the feminist rule, lol. Here in Sweden all my friends consider my opinion about things to generally be quite politically incorrect. Maybe me holding my head high about the quality of the Swedish legal system could be affected by "propaganda", but independent studies puts the Scandinavian countries, including Sweden, at the very top. Way above the US and UK. I could flip it around and say that since the legal system in your countries clearly are inferior to the Swedish system you lack the ability to assess the quality of it, but that would be as silly an argument as your talk about propaganda is.
Before you accuse me of narrow mindedness and ignorance which you likely will do, keep in mind that we are having this argument in English. English is your mother tongue, while mine isn't. Do you think I gathered my English skills without learning a lot about the UK and US in the process? My knowledge about your countries is likely at least an order of magnitude bigger than your gathered knowledge about the country you are interested in only because your hero Julian Assange managed to fuck up here and is trying to get out of it by acting like a kid playing hide-and-seek while having his minions spread gross misinformation about its society and legal systems. Talk about propaganda, lol. And again, do you see me lecturing American and British people about their own domestic shit ?
You are very rude and assume a lot. I have been to Norway/Finland/Denmark and Sweeden and have friends in each of these countries just so you know. The UK and the US are very different, just so you know. There is propaganda in EVERY country, if you think there isn't in your's or that you are not affected by it. You are very wrong. I didnt say anything about feminism, not living in Sweden/going to the schools there I couldn't guess what the propaganda is based on or aimed at.
Julian Assange is not my hero, he is a man who has undeniably dodgy allegations made against him at a fairly suspicious time.
Imagine IF you were him, and IF you were innocent, yet these strange extradition demands are coming? Would you not be suspicious?
Note: The allegations being dodgy does not make them obviously untrue, but it does make them dodgy and suspicious in a way that could have easily been avoided.
I know there are huge differences between the UK and US, I very much respect the UK but not at all the US.
It was wrong of me to include you in my argument as I had to assume that you also had not been to Sweden. I only did so because I didn't want to address sunprince directly.
Everything in Sweden is very politically correct, in public service TV and radio , newspaper ,many movies, and politics. I wouldn't have called it propaganda before you presented the theory that citizens of every country are subjected to propaganda as I consider it a very strong term. But now that I think of it, propaganda is what it should be called. To what degree it affects me I can't possibly even begin to assess.
I agree that there is a theoretical possibility that Assange's worst fears will come true. I find Assange's behavior a logical consequence of what he is like. The way he is described by persons close to him agrees very well with how I expected him to act.
What I have a big problem with is the case most of his supporters make. Suddenly a lot of random people come forward and think they know a lot about the Swedish legal system. People who I don't know anything about, whose credibility cannot be assessed or that is obviously biased as JA's lawyers, fellow Wikileakers and whatnot. I have already explained in detail why this makes the case for Assange lack credibility. You just gave me another example - the "dodgy" allegations against Assange. They could be just that if there wasn't a natural explanation for why they are perceived as dodgy. The Swedish legal system works like this and apparently it is very different from many other countries. To explain this is very hard though as you actually have to understand a lot about Swedish ways, history and fine details about our legal system. As it turns out, people from similar countries like Denmark and Norway understand this a lot better.
As a counterweight to this there are people with an actual track record of being reliable and accurate sources in their respective fields - people without personal agendas or other bias - people who I feel can be trusted. It should be obvious to anyone who understands the concept of critical thinking and source criticism that the assessments of two professors in Swedish law , one in international law and a fourth expert in human rights should be considered as more reliable than random internet activists just based on merit. Of course they could be wrong or have some bias, but those are not traits that makes a person a professor in the long run. Quite the contrary.
If I just go by the quality of arguments the case for Assange seems like utter bullshit. I have asked for reliable sources and actual proofs presented in a sound way by people who are not on any of the "sides". You guys just give me crap.
The video linked above was really poopy, it serves as a very good example of what I mean. I watched the whole video and even skipped back a few times to make sure I heard things right. The only positive thing I can say about it is that it really deserves its title.
I challenge you to find multiple examples of "victim blaming" in this thread. Disputing the accounts of "victims" or finding fault with the evidence is not the same thing as blaming the victims.
Many of them are mentioned in the second article in my post. Maybe my example was bad though, I might have confused things with other forums. But that doesn't mean that this thread is free from other types of similar techniques...
On August 21 2012 08:01 sunprince wrote: [quote]
Sweden is one of the most feminist-dominated nations in the world. This isn't a myth, it's fact.
I never said that it wasn't . I'm not admitting that it is true either though and an excerpt of a Swedish documentary on youtube does certainly not make it a fact.
It's part 1, not an excerpt. You can continue to watch the remaining parts of the documentary on Youtube. Regardless, what makes it a fact is not the documentary, but the evidence that the documentary points out.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: The myth I talked about is that "Sweden's justice system has considerable blind spots with regards to anything involving women". I just invalidated it because that statement is way to general. Anything involving women .... You might argue about some specific cases or scenarios where something like that could have happened. I saw no such thing.... In the real world, there is actually statistics debunking that myth which I have already given you earlier in this thread.
A Brief History of Swedish Sex 25 September 2010. Teenage couple breaks up.
Joakim, 18, spends an evening at his computer. He is in his boy’s room in his mother’s four room apartment. As usual he has spent some time with his girlfriend. She often stays over at his place as she has a lot of conflicts with her parents. The pair has sex practically every time they meet, oral as well as vaginal, which is no secret to the mother as the flat is not very sound proof. Sweden is still quite tolerant in these matters: Young people can have sex at home. The girlfriend herself says that they have a good relationship and that they like each other. They watch movies, meet friends and make trips on his moped. This evening she goes to bed while Joakim stays at his computer.
Before he goes to bed, he gets horny and wants to poke some fun at his sleeping girlfriend. He swings his penis in the air in front of her face and let’s it caress her between the lips to wake her up. She does, but dizzy with sleep she asks what he is doing, pushes him away, turns over and falls to sleep again.
Next day the girlfriend is picked up by her mother who brings her shopping for a journey she actually doesn’t want to make: Going to Finland with her parents on September 27 – 29. She would rather have stayed with Joakim. He calls her 2-3 times every day from his mother’s phone on her Finland tour to keep the girlfriend’s spirits up. When she returns from Finland she spends the night with him and they have sex as always.
On Saturday October 2, Joakim had to see his grandparents. He had promised to call his girlfriend the minute he returned home. He did not however, thinking it was too late. She is disappointed and wakes him up by a call the following morning and complains. The quarrel ends by Joakim saying that she has 24 hours to decide whether to continue seeing him. She says she does not want to stay together. Joakim returns her belongings.
5 April 2011. Joakim sentenced to prison for rape.
The sentence against Joakim, 18, is passed for the events on September 25, 2010. He gets four months’ imprisonment for rape and is convicted of paying damages to his ex-girlfriend. The girlfriend considered Joakim being the one breaking up although he only took her at her word and handed back her belongings.
The subsequent day she met her social worker to talk about her problems with her parents that she so far had been able to flee from to Joakim. She wondered what would happen if she would now report that Joakim one week earlier had woken her up with his penis between her lips. The social worker checked with the Police who said that in legal terms it could be a crime. The girl then reported her former boyfriend Joakim to them and asked for large damages. A chat conversation had been saved and used as evidence in court: “i put my cock in ur mouth once for 3 sec when u slept (…) did i force u to have it? it dont count as trying rape, just if i had continued, i stopped at once, i fucking tested it one time”
Three seconds of bodily touching between two persons in a relationship who normally have sex – including oral – every time they meet is however regarded as a serious crime in Sweden. It does not matter that they after this incident had sex as usual as soon as they were reunited after her trip to Finland. In the judgment one can read:
“Through the information it is proven that Joakim NNN at the time has put his erect penis in A’s mouth through improperly exploiting that she due to sleep was in a helpless state. The district court also finds that there has been a question of a sexual act that with with regard to the nature of the violation and the circumstances in general, is comparable to sexual intercourse. Joakim NNN is therefore guilty of rape (…) Rape according to Chapter 6, Article 1, second paragraph of the Penal Code carries a penalty of imprisonment for at least two years and a maximum of six years. If the offense under the circumstances is to be regarded as less serious, the sentence (…) is imprisonment not exceeding four years. If, in view of the circumstances , the crime is considered less aggravated, a sentence to imprisonment for at most four years shall, according the third paragraph, be imposed. (…) In this case, it has been the case of a short-term events. Joakim NNN has suspended his act as soon as A woke up and made it clear to him that she did not accept his actions. No violence or threat has been present. The District Court therefore finds that Joakim NNN shall be sentenced for rape under Chapter 6, Article 1, third paragraph of the Penal Code.”
If the proposal from the Center Party (c) in the Parliament on March 2, 2005, had won, 18-year-old Joakim would have been sentenced to two years’ imprisonment for his three-second contact between his and his girlfriend’s bodies that he immediately interrupted when she woke up, pushed him away and turned over to sleep again. If the current development of Justice policy proceeds it could very well be that ordinary bedroom behavior between two partners can lead to two years’ imprisonment. The ex-girlfriend demanded that Joakim pay 75,000 SEK (10,440 USD) in damages for the violation and 10,000 SEK (1,400 USD) for pain and suffering. The judge lowered this to 25,000 SEK (3,480 USD) and 5,000 SEK (700 USD) respectively. In the publicly available judgment the name, personal registration number, and address of the sentenced perpetrator Joakim is obviously written out. There is however no information whatsoever about the girlfriend, since her name is classified as secret, as always in rape cases in Sweden. We cannot even know her age. Due to her school situation (High School) she should be between 16 and 18. Age is not a case. She was in no way underage since the age of consent is 15 in Sweden.”
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Just like 99% of Assange's zombies.
Enough with the stupid ad-hominems already. I'm not even an Assange supporter, I'm just opposed to unjust judicial systems, but even if I were, it has no bearing on the argument at hand.
lol keep linking.. SOME legal experts want to do this, SOME legal experts want to do that, "SWEDEN" wants to ban standing urinals, but when i read it turns out thats not what it says at all. whats your point?
Nice of you to selectively ignore the evidence which you don't have an answer for.
The point, which wasn't addressed towards you, is that Assange has every reason to be wary of the Swedish judicial system with regards to a rape trial.
look at the cover for christs sake! sounds fair and balanced. and sure, you're no Assange supporter, just a concerned citizen.
Meanwhile in Sweden, hell, apparently we want to ban stand-up urinals! I wasn't aware. Oh wait, it turns out it wasn't Sweden, it turns out it was a suggestion raised by one local county politician from a party which represents roughly 5% of the electorate nationally.
the fact that you are so blatantly cherry-picking your "facts" to build a narrative that hardly corresponds to reality in the slightest is painfully obvious. i don't have to disprove your "evidence". you have to try again, and try harder.
Yeah sunprince , your "evidence" makes me giggle
Yeah, I'm sure it's hilarious to refuse to read it.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote:No-one takes the left party seriously, they have made a whole array of stupid law proposals. They even proposed a man-tax.... Most Swedes find this a never ending source of amusement. I could go on and on about this, lol. I'm sure you have political parties in the US proposing stupid shit all the time.
We do have stupid proposals, and they reveal the nature of who the acceptable targets are. For example, we get stupid proposals here regarding immigrants, which reveals the fact that public discourse and culture is slanted against immigrants here. Similarly, the fact that you have political parties making stupid proposals targeting men reveals that Sweden is (particularly) slanted against men, no surprise considering the "success" of Swedish feminism.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: You take stories and copy-paste them as evidence but you don't even say where it is from...
Sure I do. You just have shitty reading comprehension.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Furthermore, every example is cherry-picked to support your theory.
Since when were we supposed to provide examples against our own arguments? Are you going to start disproving yourself?
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: I recall a quite recent example where the court argued that a raped woman had given clear signs that she wanted to have sex with the guy by "dressing in a sexy way". The prosecutors and lawyers of the accused rapist went very hard at her and forced her to answer humiliating questions about very personal and intimate stuff related about her sex life . All this under oath of course. Does all Swedish rape trials disfavor the woman because of this ? Does the Swedish judicial system consist of only man chauvinist pigs?
Specifically note the passage: " .... What we do know is that Assange will receive fair treatment by Swedish legal institutions. And, yes, their respect for the rule of law extends to accusations of sexual offenses. As recently as a few years ago, the Swedish Supreme Court explicitly ruled that the same high standard of proof applied to other criminal allegations are to be applied in cases of suspected rape. Similar criticisms of the Swedish legal system are based largely on myths and misconceptions. The framework of Sweden’s criminal law with respect to sexual offenses is no different from most other countries’. I will not be sentenced for rape if my condom breaks during a sexual act. But, like in many other countries, I can be convicted of rape if I have sex with a sleeping or unconscious person. ...."
A single Swedish law professor's opinion is not an authoritative indicator of fact, nor is it immune from bias. The actual article is dubious, as he argues that it is a fact that the Swedish judicial system is fair, despite this being philosophically impossible (fairness is an opinion, not an objective fact like the 2+2 = 4). He also insists that Swedish judges will not be externally influenced, despite the presence of lay judges who are political appointees. Göran Lambertz, the former Chancellor of Justice, published a 2009 study which reveals major problems with the Swedish judicial system, especially where sexual offenses are concerned (8 out of 11 of the wrongful convictions in the study are due to sexual offenses).
Your unreasonable approach to this issue, mirrored by many Swedish posters in this thread, is a strong indicator that you've been brainwashed by the state feminism controlled media. And before you insist that's not the case, consider this article by legendary Swedish feminist journalist Helene Borgman. When a legendary feminist thinks that state feminism has run amok, that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with Sweden.
Why did you go through all the trouble to write all that when I said that I wouldn't discuss with you anymore.
Because some people here aren't morons, and will actually read and learn from my arguments.
On August 22 2012 05:42 one-one-one wrote: But since you are willing to waste your time like this at least you could have answered my question: Have you actually been to Sweden?
Complete logical fallacy that's irrelevant to the discussion.
Sorry what's your argument exactly? That Sweden is a super feminist country where females are way favoured to men You're basing that on what exactly? You're saying we're brain washed by propaganda while you're linking "freedom4assange" as an unbiased and credible source. Wow..
I mean I wouldn't even have to mention that the overwhelming majority of your other petty attempts of coming up with "evidence" that's loosely based on reality is from blogs and sensationalistic foreign news sites without interviews. Do you watch fox news a lot? I just have to take it for granted considering what you're prepared to call evidence.
For the record Swedish men earn 15% more than Swedish women, while American men earn 19% more than American women. (2004-2006) http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Löneskillnader_mellan_män_och_kvinnor (I'm even linking the Swedish wikipedia, as I assume a person with your intimate knowledge of Swedish society surely knows the language). Wow, the women have extraordinary rights in this brain washed country, while the Americans keep up the proud heritage of unequal salaries between the genders... oh right it's only a 4% difference. As the American men only earn 19% more than the women, while the Korean men earn 38% more than the women, would you accept the fact that you are brainwashed by the American anti male propaganda? You live in a country where the patriot act has relieved you of every human right should you arbitrarily be branded a terrorist (which as Assange very well might be), and where Sarah Palin would've been vice president hadn't Obama won the election (and that was close), and you feel you're fit to call out propaganda in other countries? You're even arguing the fact that the Swedish justice system would give up to American pressure to break international law and hand Assange over, and you think the Swedes are the ones being brainwashed?
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: [quote]
Many of them are mentioned in the second article in my post. Maybe my example was bad though, I might have confused things with other forums. But that doesn't mean that this thread is free from other types of similar techniques...
[quote]
I never said that it wasn't . I'm not admitting that it is true either though and an excerpt of a Swedish documentary on youtube does certainly not make it a fact.
It's part 1, not an excerpt. You can continue to watch the remaining parts of the documentary on Youtube. Regardless, what makes it a fact is not the documentary, but the evidence that the documentary points out.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: The myth I talked about is that "Sweden's justice system has considerable blind spots with regards to anything involving women". I just invalidated it because that statement is way to general. Anything involving women .... You might argue about some specific cases or scenarios where something like that could have happened. I saw no such thing.... In the real world, there is actually statistics debunking that myth which I have already given you earlier in this thread.
A Brief History of Swedish Sex 25 September 2010. Teenage couple breaks up.
Joakim, 18, spends an evening at his computer. He is in his boy’s room in his mother’s four room apartment. As usual he has spent some time with his girlfriend. She often stays over at his place as she has a lot of conflicts with her parents. The pair has sex practically every time they meet, oral as well as vaginal, which is no secret to the mother as the flat is not very sound proof. Sweden is still quite tolerant in these matters: Young people can have sex at home. The girlfriend herself says that they have a good relationship and that they like each other. They watch movies, meet friends and make trips on his moped. This evening she goes to bed while Joakim stays at his computer.
Before he goes to bed, he gets horny and wants to poke some fun at his sleeping girlfriend. He swings his penis in the air in front of her face and let’s it caress her between the lips to wake her up. She does, but dizzy with sleep she asks what he is doing, pushes him away, turns over and falls to sleep again.
Next day the girlfriend is picked up by her mother who brings her shopping for a journey she actually doesn’t want to make: Going to Finland with her parents on September 27 – 29. She would rather have stayed with Joakim. He calls her 2-3 times every day from his mother’s phone on her Finland tour to keep the girlfriend’s spirits up. When she returns from Finland she spends the night with him and they have sex as always.
On Saturday October 2, Joakim had to see his grandparents. He had promised to call his girlfriend the minute he returned home. He did not however, thinking it was too late. She is disappointed and wakes him up by a call the following morning and complains. The quarrel ends by Joakim saying that she has 24 hours to decide whether to continue seeing him. She says she does not want to stay together. Joakim returns her belongings.
5 April 2011. Joakim sentenced to prison for rape.
The sentence against Joakim, 18, is passed for the events on September 25, 2010. He gets four months’ imprisonment for rape and is convicted of paying damages to his ex-girlfriend. The girlfriend considered Joakim being the one breaking up although he only took her at her word and handed back her belongings.
The subsequent day she met her social worker to talk about her problems with her parents that she so far had been able to flee from to Joakim. She wondered what would happen if she would now report that Joakim one week earlier had woken her up with his penis between her lips. The social worker checked with the Police who said that in legal terms it could be a crime. The girl then reported her former boyfriend Joakim to them and asked for large damages. A chat conversation had been saved and used as evidence in court: “i put my cock in ur mouth once for 3 sec when u slept (…) did i force u to have it? it dont count as trying rape, just if i had continued, i stopped at once, i fucking tested it one time”
Three seconds of bodily touching between two persons in a relationship who normally have sex – including oral – every time they meet is however regarded as a serious crime in Sweden. It does not matter that they after this incident had sex as usual as soon as they were reunited after her trip to Finland. In the judgment one can read:
“Through the information it is proven that Joakim NNN at the time has put his erect penis in A’s mouth through improperly exploiting that she due to sleep was in a helpless state. The district court also finds that there has been a question of a sexual act that with with regard to the nature of the violation and the circumstances in general, is comparable to sexual intercourse. Joakim NNN is therefore guilty of rape (…) Rape according to Chapter 6, Article 1, second paragraph of the Penal Code carries a penalty of imprisonment for at least two years and a maximum of six years. If the offense under the circumstances is to be regarded as less serious, the sentence (…) is imprisonment not exceeding four years. If, in view of the circumstances , the crime is considered less aggravated, a sentence to imprisonment for at most four years shall, according the third paragraph, be imposed. (…) In this case, it has been the case of a short-term events. Joakim NNN has suspended his act as soon as A woke up and made it clear to him that she did not accept his actions. No violence or threat has been present. The District Court therefore finds that Joakim NNN shall be sentenced for rape under Chapter 6, Article 1, third paragraph of the Penal Code.”
If the proposal from the Center Party (c) in the Parliament on March 2, 2005, had won, 18-year-old Joakim would have been sentenced to two years’ imprisonment for his three-second contact between his and his girlfriend’s bodies that he immediately interrupted when she woke up, pushed him away and turned over to sleep again. If the current development of Justice policy proceeds it could very well be that ordinary bedroom behavior between two partners can lead to two years’ imprisonment. The ex-girlfriend demanded that Joakim pay 75,000 SEK (10,440 USD) in damages for the violation and 10,000 SEK (1,400 USD) for pain and suffering. The judge lowered this to 25,000 SEK (3,480 USD) and 5,000 SEK (700 USD) respectively. In the publicly available judgment the name, personal registration number, and address of the sentenced perpetrator Joakim is obviously written out. There is however no information whatsoever about the girlfriend, since her name is classified as secret, as always in rape cases in Sweden. We cannot even know her age. Due to her school situation (High School) she should be between 16 and 18. Age is not a case. She was in no way underage since the age of consent is 15 in Sweden.”
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Just like 99% of Assange's zombies.
Enough with the stupid ad-hominems already. I'm not even an Assange supporter, I'm just opposed to unjust judicial systems, but even if I were, it has no bearing on the argument at hand.
lol keep linking.. SOME legal experts want to do this, SOME legal experts want to do that, "SWEDEN" wants to ban standing urinals, but when i read it turns out thats not what it says at all. whats your point?
Nice of you to selectively ignore the evidence which you don't have an answer for.
The point, which wasn't addressed towards you, is that Assange has every reason to be wary of the Swedish judicial system with regards to a rape trial.
look at the cover for christs sake! sounds fair and balanced. and sure, you're no Assange supporter, just a concerned citizen.
Meanwhile in Sweden, hell, apparently we want to ban stand-up urinals! I wasn't aware. Oh wait, it turns out it wasn't Sweden, it turns out it was a suggestion raised by one local county politician from a party which represents roughly 5% of the electorate nationally.
the fact that you are so blatantly cherry-picking your "facts" to build a narrative that hardly corresponds to reality in the slightest is painfully obvious. i don't have to disprove your "evidence". you have to try again, and try harder.
Yeah sunprince , your "evidence" makes me giggle
Yeah, I'm sure it's hilarious to refuse to read it.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote:No-one takes the left party seriously, they have made a whole array of stupid law proposals. They even proposed a man-tax.... Most Swedes find this a never ending source of amusement. I could go on and on about this, lol. I'm sure you have political parties in the US proposing stupid shit all the time.
We do have stupid proposals, and they reveal the nature of who the acceptable targets are. For example, we get stupid proposals here regarding immigrants, which reveals the fact that public discourse and culture is slanted against immigrants here. Similarly, the fact that you have political parties making stupid proposals targeting men reveals that Sweden is (particularly) slanted against men, no surprise considering the "success" of Swedish feminism.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: You take stories and copy-paste them as evidence but you don't even say where it is from...
Sure I do. You just have shitty reading comprehension.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Furthermore, every example is cherry-picked to support your theory.
Since when were we supposed to provide examples against our own arguments? Are you going to start disproving yourself?
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: I recall a quite recent example where the court argued that a raped woman had given clear signs that she wanted to have sex with the guy by "dressing in a sexy way". The prosecutors and lawyers of the accused rapist went very hard at her and forced her to answer humiliating questions about very personal and intimate stuff related about her sex life . All this under oath of course. Does all Swedish rape trials disfavor the woman because of this ? Does the Swedish judicial system consist of only man chauvinist pigs?
Specifically note the passage: " .... What we do know is that Assange will receive fair treatment by Swedish legal institutions. And, yes, their respect for the rule of law extends to accusations of sexual offenses. As recently as a few years ago, the Swedish Supreme Court explicitly ruled that the same high standard of proof applied to other criminal allegations are to be applied in cases of suspected rape. Similar criticisms of the Swedish legal system are based largely on myths and misconceptions. The framework of Sweden’s criminal law with respect to sexual offenses is no different from most other countries’. I will not be sentenced for rape if my condom breaks during a sexual act. But, like in many other countries, I can be convicted of rape if I have sex with a sleeping or unconscious person. ...."
A single Swedish law professor's opinion is not an authoritative indicator of fact, nor is it immune from bias. The actual article is dubious, as he argues that it is a fact that the Swedish judicial system is fair, despite this being philosophically impossible (fairness is an opinion, not an objective fact like the 2+2 = 4). He also insists that Swedish judges will not be externally influenced, despite the presence of lay judges who are political appointees. Göran Lambertz, the former Chancellor of Justice, published a 2009 study which reveals major problems with the Swedish judicial system, especially where sexual offenses are concerned (8 out of 11 of the wrongful convictions in the study are due to sexual offenses).
Your unreasonable approach to this issue, mirrored by many Swedish posters in this thread, is a strong indicator that you've been brainwashed by the state feminism controlled media. And before you insist that's not the case, consider this article by legendary Swedish feminist journalist Helene Borgman. When a legendary feminist thinks that state feminism has run amok, that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with Sweden.
Why did you go through all the trouble to write all that when I said that I wouldn't discuss with you anymore.
Because some people here aren't morons, and will actually read and learn from my arguments.
On August 22 2012 05:42 one-one-one wrote: But since you are willing to waste your time like this at least you could have answered my question: Have you actually been to Sweden?
Complete logical fallacy that's irrelevant to the discussion.
Sorry what's your argument exactly? That Sweden is a super feminist country where females are way favoured to men You're basing that on what exactly?
I'm arguing that Sweden's judicial system is stacked against men accused of rape (like most Western nations, only moreso due to a particularly strong feminist presence), and that this explains why Assange is wary of putting himself in Swedish hands. This is based on the piles of examples and evidence I've provided over the last several pages of this thread.
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: You're saying we're brain washed by propaganda while you're linking "freedom4assange" as an unbiased and credible source.
You must have me confused with someone else, since I haven't linked anything from "freedom4assange".
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: I mean I wouldn't even have to mention that the overwhelming majority of your other petty attempts of coming up with "evidence" that's loosely based on reality is from blogs and sensationalistic foreign news sites without interviews.
Due to feminist domination of Sweden's state media, there isn't a whole lot of evidence available from within Sweden (it also doesn't help that I can't read Swedish). I've still provided ample and compelling evidence, whether or not you choose to read it.
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: For the record Swedish men earn 15% more than Swedish women, while American men earn 19% more than American women. (2004-2006) http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Löneskillnader_mellan_män_och_kvinnor (I'm even linking the Swedish wikipedia, as I assume a person with your intimate knowledge of Swedish society surely knows the language). Wow, the women have extraordinary rights in this brain washed country, while the Americans keep up the proud heritage of unequal salaries between the genders... oh right it's only a 4% difference. As the American men only earn 19% more than the women, while the Korean men earn 38% more than the women, would you accept the fact that you are brainwashed by the American anti male propaganda?
The wage gap is a feminist myth based in lies and/or a failure to understand statistics. The numbers you quoted refer to the unadjusted wage gap, which fails to take into account major factors like occupation, hours worked, and qualifications like education and experience. Kind of major issues, don't you think? In reality, when women make the same choices as men, they make just as much or more. There was a recent study in the United States which confirmed that the pay gap is minimal if it exists at all and that the unadjusted wage gap is used in misleading ways to perpetuate the feminist agenda.
The fact that you buy into this feminist myth, despite all of your other posts indicating that you are an intelligent poster, is a pretty good example of feminist brainwashing.
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: You live in a country where the patriot act has relieved you of every human right should you arbitrarily be branded a terrorist (which as Assange very well might be), and where Sarah Palin would've been vice president hadn't Obama won the election (and that was close), and you feel you're fit to call out propaganda in other countries? You're even arguing the fact that the Swedish justice system would give up to American pressure to break international law and hand Assange over, and you think the Swedes are the ones being brainwashed?
The Patriot Act is not an example of propaganda. The fact that I personally find America to be a more repressive state overall than Sweden also has no bearing on the actual issue we're discussing. Despite the many failings of the United States, we do benefit from unusually strong freedom of expression.
It's part 1, not an excerpt. You can continue to watch the remaining parts of the documentary on Youtube. Regardless, what makes it a fact is not the documentary, but the evidence that the documentary points out.
Enough with the stupid ad-hominems already. I'm not even an Assange supporter, I'm just opposed to unjust judicial systems, but even if I were, it has no bearing on the argument at hand.
lol keep linking.. SOME legal experts want to do this, SOME legal experts want to do that, "SWEDEN" wants to ban standing urinals, but when i read it turns out thats not what it says at all. whats your point?
Nice of you to selectively ignore the evidence which you don't have an answer for.
The point, which wasn't addressed towards you, is that Assange has every reason to be wary of the Swedish judicial system with regards to a rape trial.
look at the cover for christs sake! sounds fair and balanced. and sure, you're no Assange supporter, just a concerned citizen.
Meanwhile in Sweden, hell, apparently we want to ban stand-up urinals! I wasn't aware. Oh wait, it turns out it wasn't Sweden, it turns out it was a suggestion raised by one local county politician from a party which represents roughly 5% of the electorate nationally.
the fact that you are so blatantly cherry-picking your "facts" to build a narrative that hardly corresponds to reality in the slightest is painfully obvious. i don't have to disprove your "evidence". you have to try again, and try harder.
Yeah sunprince , your "evidence" makes me giggle
Yeah, I'm sure it's hilarious to refuse to read it.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote:No-one takes the left party seriously, they have made a whole array of stupid law proposals. They even proposed a man-tax.... Most Swedes find this a never ending source of amusement. I could go on and on about this, lol. I'm sure you have political parties in the US proposing stupid shit all the time.
We do have stupid proposals, and they reveal the nature of who the acceptable targets are. For example, we get stupid proposals here regarding immigrants, which reveals the fact that public discourse and culture is slanted against immigrants here. Similarly, the fact that you have political parties making stupid proposals targeting men reveals that Sweden is (particularly) slanted against men, no surprise considering the "success" of Swedish feminism.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: You take stories and copy-paste them as evidence but you don't even say where it is from...
Sure I do. You just have shitty reading comprehension.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Furthermore, every example is cherry-picked to support your theory.
Since when were we supposed to provide examples against our own arguments? Are you going to start disproving yourself?
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: I recall a quite recent example where the court argued that a raped woman had given clear signs that she wanted to have sex with the guy by "dressing in a sexy way". The prosecutors and lawyers of the accused rapist went very hard at her and forced her to answer humiliating questions about very personal and intimate stuff related about her sex life . All this under oath of course. Does all Swedish rape trials disfavor the woman because of this ? Does the Swedish judicial system consist of only man chauvinist pigs?
Specifically note the passage: " .... What we do know is that Assange will receive fair treatment by Swedish legal institutions. And, yes, their respect for the rule of law extends to accusations of sexual offenses. As recently as a few years ago, the Swedish Supreme Court explicitly ruled that the same high standard of proof applied to other criminal allegations are to be applied in cases of suspected rape. Similar criticisms of the Swedish legal system are based largely on myths and misconceptions. The framework of Sweden’s criminal law with respect to sexual offenses is no different from most other countries’. I will not be sentenced for rape if my condom breaks during a sexual act. But, like in many other countries, I can be convicted of rape if I have sex with a sleeping or unconscious person. ...."
A single Swedish law professor's opinion is not an authoritative indicator of fact, nor is it immune from bias. The actual article is dubious, as he argues that it is a fact that the Swedish judicial system is fair, despite this being philosophically impossible (fairness is an opinion, not an objective fact like the 2+2 = 4). He also insists that Swedish judges will not be externally influenced, despite the presence of lay judges who are political appointees. Göran Lambertz, the former Chancellor of Justice, published a 2009 study which reveals major problems with the Swedish judicial system, especially where sexual offenses are concerned (8 out of 11 of the wrongful convictions in the study are due to sexual offenses).
Your unreasonable approach to this issue, mirrored by many Swedish posters in this thread, is a strong indicator that you've been brainwashed by the state feminism controlled media. And before you insist that's not the case, consider this article by legendary Swedish feminist journalist Helene Borgman. When a legendary feminist thinks that state feminism has run amok, that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with Sweden.
Why did you go through all the trouble to write all that when I said that I wouldn't discuss with you anymore.
Because some people here aren't morons, and will actually read and learn from my arguments.
On August 22 2012 05:42 one-one-one wrote: But since you are willing to waste your time like this at least you could have answered my question: Have you actually been to Sweden?
Complete logical fallacy that's irrelevant to the discussion.
Sorry what's your argument exactly? That Sweden is a super feminist country where females are way favoured to men You're basing that on what exactly?
I'm arguing that Sweden's judicial system is stacked against men accused of rape (like most Western nations, only moreso due to a particularly strong feminist presence), and that this explains why Assange is wary of putting himself in Swedish hands. This is based on the piles of examples and evidence I've provided over the last several pages of this thread.
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: You're saying we're brain washed by propaganda while you're linking "freedom4assange" as an unbiased and credible source.
You must have me confused with someone else, since I haven't linked anything from "freedom4assange".
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: I mean I wouldn't even have to mention that the overwhelming majority of your other petty attempts of coming up with "evidence" that's loosely based on reality is from blogs and sensationalistic foreign news sites without interviews.
Due to feminist domination of Sweden's state media, there isn't a whole lot of evidence available from within Sweden (it also doesn't help that I can't read Swedish). I've still provided ample and compelling evidence, whether or not you choose to read it.
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: For the record Swedish men earn 15% more than Swedish women, while American men earn 19% more than American women. (2004-2006) http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Löneskillnader_mellan_män_och_kvinnor (I'm even linking the Swedish wikipedia, as I assume a person with your intimate knowledge of Swedish society surely knows the language). Wow, the women have extraordinary rights in this brain washed country, while the Americans keep up the proud heritage of unequal salaries between the genders... oh right it's only a 4% difference. As the American men only earn 19% more than the women, while the Korean men earn 38% more than the women, would you accept the fact that you are brainwashed by the American anti male propaganda?
The wage gap is a feminist myth based in lies and/or a failure to understand statistics. The numbers you quoted refer to the unadjusted wage gap, which fails to take into account major factors like occupation, hours worked, and qualifications like education and experience. Kind of major issues, don't you think? In reality, when women make the same choices as men, they make just as much or more. There was a recent study in the United States which confirmed that the pay gap is minimal if it exists at all and that the unadjusted wage gap is used in misleading ways to perpetuate the feminist agenda.
The fact that you buy into this feminist myth, despite all of your other posts indicating that you are an intelligent poster, is a pretty good example of feminist brainwashing.
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: You live in a country where the patriot act has relieved you of every human right should you arbitrarily be branded a terrorist (which as Assange very well might be), and where Sarah Palin would've been vice president hadn't Obama won the election (and that was close), and you feel you're fit to call out propaganda in other countries? You're even arguing the fact that the Swedish justice system would give up to American pressure to break international law and hand Assange over, and you think the Swedes are the ones being brainwashed?
The Patriot Act is not an example of propaganda. The fact that I personally find America to be a more repressive state overall than Sweden also has no bearing on the actual issue we're discussing. Despite the many failings of the United States, we do benefit from unusually strong freedom of expression.
If the Swedish legal system was stacked against men it would be a very serious thing. In this case, how do you explain that Sweden's legal system is ranked at the very very top in international comparisons? How do you explain that respected professors in Swedish law has pointed out that this is a common myth? There is even an explicit ruling in the highest court instance that evidence in rape trials must hold the same high standards as in any other case. If the system was stacked against men in general, shouldn't there be foreign reports about this from credible people (read non-Swedish law professors) describing and analyzing the phenomenon and its causes? Show me one such report. And don't come dragging with some book you found on amazon or quotes by some of Assange's legal advisers.
Even if Swedish state owned media was feminist dominated there are still private media corporations... Do you know that the three largest newspapers in Sweden are described as "liberal" or "liberal conservative" ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagens_Nyheter I read the columns in those newspapers every other day and I can clearly see that they are *very* critical towards most aspects of feminism due to their ideological stance. In fact, a common opinion among feminists and leftists in general is that it is a very serious problem that most of the medias are associated with right-wing ideology. Pretty ironic, huh? Indeed it doesn't help you that you can't read Swedish.
You have a really ignorant attitude when you think that you can make such general assertions about Sweden when you obviously lack even a basic sense of source-criticism. You have the perspective of an American. Your county is far behind Sweden regarding the legal system. You common law is very different from out civil law. Your experience about legal systems from the US does simply not apply here. Indeed it doesn't help you that you don't understand the Swedish society. The only word I can describe you with is ignorant.
But feel free to go and ask other Swedes. I dare you.
On August 22 2012 06:39 FreddYCooL wrote: I open this thread and instantly I am bombarded with users talking about how Sweden is brainwashing people with statefeminism and feministic brainwash propaganda. What is going on here?
Some macho guys who like their women meek and submissive and in the kitchen and not allowed to make decisions about their own bodies or take someone to court if they were the victim of a crime... I think i prefer "feminist propaganda" to be honest.
On August 22 2012 06:39 FreddYCooL wrote: I open this thread and instantly I am bombarded with users talking about how Sweden is brainwashing people with statefeminism and feministic brainwash propaganda. What is going on here?
Some macho guys who like their women meek and submissive and in the kitchen and not allowed to make decisions about their own bodies or take someone to court if they were the victim of a crime... I think i prefer "feminist propaganda" to be honest.
I'm sorry, but that is simply either a huge misunderstanding of what is being said, or a deliberate attempt to belittle their opinions.
In general, whenever someone attributes everything to "xyz propaganda, xyz brainwashing, xyz media domination, xyz controls the country", that sounds pretty weird to most people who do not share that persons exact idiology.
On August 21 2012 10:39 Dundron2000 wrote: [quote]
lol keep linking.. SOME legal experts want to do this, SOME legal experts want to do that, "SWEDEN" wants to ban standing urinals, but when i read it turns out thats not what it says at all. whats your point?
Nice of you to selectively ignore the evidence which you don't have an answer for.
The point, which wasn't addressed towards you, is that Assange has every reason to be wary of the Swedish judicial system with regards to a rape trial.
look at the cover for christs sake! sounds fair and balanced. and sure, you're no Assange supporter, just a concerned citizen.
Meanwhile in Sweden, hell, apparently we want to ban stand-up urinals! I wasn't aware. Oh wait, it turns out it wasn't Sweden, it turns out it was a suggestion raised by one local county politician from a party which represents roughly 5% of the electorate nationally.
the fact that you are so blatantly cherry-picking your "facts" to build a narrative that hardly corresponds to reality in the slightest is painfully obvious. i don't have to disprove your "evidence". you have to try again, and try harder.
Yeah sunprince , your "evidence" makes me giggle
Yeah, I'm sure it's hilarious to refuse to read it.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote:No-one takes the left party seriously, they have made a whole array of stupid law proposals. They even proposed a man-tax.... Most Swedes find this a never ending source of amusement. I could go on and on about this, lol. I'm sure you have political parties in the US proposing stupid shit all the time.
We do have stupid proposals, and they reveal the nature of who the acceptable targets are. For example, we get stupid proposals here regarding immigrants, which reveals the fact that public discourse and culture is slanted against immigrants here. Similarly, the fact that you have political parties making stupid proposals targeting men reveals that Sweden is (particularly) slanted against men, no surprise considering the "success" of Swedish feminism.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: You take stories and copy-paste them as evidence but you don't even say where it is from...
Sure I do. You just have shitty reading comprehension.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Furthermore, every example is cherry-picked to support your theory.
Since when were we supposed to provide examples against our own arguments? Are you going to start disproving yourself?
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: I recall a quite recent example where the court argued that a raped woman had given clear signs that she wanted to have sex with the guy by "dressing in a sexy way". The prosecutors and lawyers of the accused rapist went very hard at her and forced her to answer humiliating questions about very personal and intimate stuff related about her sex life . All this under oath of course. Does all Swedish rape trials disfavor the woman because of this ? Does the Swedish judicial system consist of only man chauvinist pigs?
Specifically note the passage: " .... What we do know is that Assange will receive fair treatment by Swedish legal institutions. And, yes, their respect for the rule of law extends to accusations of sexual offenses. As recently as a few years ago, the Swedish Supreme Court explicitly ruled that the same high standard of proof applied to other criminal allegations are to be applied in cases of suspected rape. Similar criticisms of the Swedish legal system are based largely on myths and misconceptions. The framework of Sweden’s criminal law with respect to sexual offenses is no different from most other countries’. I will not be sentenced for rape if my condom breaks during a sexual act. But, like in many other countries, I can be convicted of rape if I have sex with a sleeping or unconscious person. ...."
A single Swedish law professor's opinion is not an authoritative indicator of fact, nor is it immune from bias. The actual article is dubious, as he argues that it is a fact that the Swedish judicial system is fair, despite this being philosophically impossible (fairness is an opinion, not an objective fact like the 2+2 = 4). He also insists that Swedish judges will not be externally influenced, despite the presence of lay judges who are political appointees. Göran Lambertz, the former Chancellor of Justice, published a 2009 study which reveals major problems with the Swedish judicial system, especially where sexual offenses are concerned (8 out of 11 of the wrongful convictions in the study are due to sexual offenses).
Your unreasonable approach to this issue, mirrored by many Swedish posters in this thread, is a strong indicator that you've been brainwashed by the state feminism controlled media. And before you insist that's not the case, consider this article by legendary Swedish feminist journalist Helene Borgman. When a legendary feminist thinks that state feminism has run amok, that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with Sweden.
Why did you go through all the trouble to write all that when I said that I wouldn't discuss with you anymore.
Because some people here aren't morons, and will actually read and learn from my arguments.
On August 22 2012 05:42 one-one-one wrote: But since you are willing to waste your time like this at least you could have answered my question: Have you actually been to Sweden?
Complete logical fallacy that's irrelevant to the discussion.
Sorry what's your argument exactly? That Sweden is a super feminist country where females are way favoured to men You're basing that on what exactly?
I'm arguing that Sweden's judicial system is stacked against men accused of rape (like most Western nations, only moreso due to a particularly strong feminist presence), and that this explains why Assange is wary of putting himself in Swedish hands. This is based on the piles of examples and evidence I've provided over the last several pages of this thread.
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: You're saying we're brain washed by propaganda while you're linking "freedom4assange" as an unbiased and credible source.
You must have me confused with someone else, since I haven't linked anything from "freedom4assange".
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: I mean I wouldn't even have to mention that the overwhelming majority of your other petty attempts of coming up with "evidence" that's loosely based on reality is from blogs and sensationalistic foreign news sites without interviews.
Due to feminist domination of Sweden's state media, there isn't a whole lot of evidence available from within Sweden (it also doesn't help that I can't read Swedish). I've still provided ample and compelling evidence, whether or not you choose to read it.
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: For the record Swedish men earn 15% more than Swedish women, while American men earn 19% more than American women. (2004-2006) http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Löneskillnader_mellan_män_och_kvinnor (I'm even linking the Swedish wikipedia, as I assume a person with your intimate knowledge of Swedish society surely knows the language). Wow, the women have extraordinary rights in this brain washed country, while the Americans keep up the proud heritage of unequal salaries between the genders... oh right it's only a 4% difference. As the American men only earn 19% more than the women, while the Korean men earn 38% more than the women, would you accept the fact that you are brainwashed by the American anti male propaganda?
The wage gap is a feminist myth based in lies and/or a failure to understand statistics. The numbers you quoted refer to the unadjusted wage gap, which fails to take into account major factors like occupation, hours worked, and qualifications like education and experience. Kind of major issues, don't you think? In reality, when women make the same choices as men, they make just as much or more. There was a recent study in the United States which confirmed that the pay gap is minimal if it exists at all and that the unadjusted wage gap is used in misleading ways to perpetuate the feminist agenda.
The fact that you buy into this feminist myth, despite all of your other posts indicating that you are an intelligent poster, is a pretty good example of feminist brainwashing.
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: You live in a country where the patriot act has relieved you of every human right should you arbitrarily be branded a terrorist (which as Assange very well might be), and where Sarah Palin would've been vice president hadn't Obama won the election (and that was close), and you feel you're fit to call out propaganda in other countries? You're even arguing the fact that the Swedish justice system would give up to American pressure to break international law and hand Assange over, and you think the Swedes are the ones being brainwashed?
The Patriot Act is not an example of propaganda. The fact that I personally find America to be a more repressive state overall than Sweden also has no bearing on the actual issue we're discussing. Despite the many failings of the United States, we do benefit from unusually strong freedom of expression.
Even if Swedish state owned media was feminist dominated there are still private media corporations... Do you know that the three largest newspapers in Sweden are described as "liberal" or "liberal conservative" ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagens_Nyheter I read the columns in those newspapers every other day and I can clearly see that they are *very* critical towards most aspects of feminism due to their ideological stance. In fact, a common opinion among feminists and leftists in general is that it is a very serious problem that most of the medias are associated with right-wing ideology. Pretty ironic, huh? Indeed it doesn't help you that you can't read Swedish.
Who would have thought that if your nation was accused of being overly to the left, your people would often accuse your media of being "to the right"
Fox is dangerous, not becuase of the idiotic crap it spews, but becuase it makes people think that propaganda is obvious, to the point, and un-subtle.
In reality, Governments and companies pay vast sums of money, to very very clever individuals to manipulate the way their target audience think.
If your media (aimed at appealing to the people of your nation) are accused of being right wing,, what does that say about the people reading their material?
Nice of you to selectively ignore the evidence which you don't have an answer for.
The point, which wasn't addressed towards you, is that Assange has every reason to be wary of the Swedish judicial system with regards to a rape trial.
look at the cover for christs sake! sounds fair and balanced. and sure, you're no Assange supporter, just a concerned citizen.
Meanwhile in Sweden, hell, apparently we want to ban stand-up urinals! I wasn't aware. Oh wait, it turns out it wasn't Sweden, it turns out it was a suggestion raised by one local county politician from a party which represents roughly 5% of the electorate nationally.
the fact that you are so blatantly cherry-picking your "facts" to build a narrative that hardly corresponds to reality in the slightest is painfully obvious. i don't have to disprove your "evidence". you have to try again, and try harder.
Yeah sunprince , your "evidence" makes me giggle
Yeah, I'm sure it's hilarious to refuse to read it.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote:No-one takes the left party seriously, they have made a whole array of stupid law proposals. They even proposed a man-tax.... Most Swedes find this a never ending source of amusement. I could go on and on about this, lol. I'm sure you have political parties in the US proposing stupid shit all the time.
We do have stupid proposals, and they reveal the nature of who the acceptable targets are. For example, we get stupid proposals here regarding immigrants, which reveals the fact that public discourse and culture is slanted against immigrants here. Similarly, the fact that you have political parties making stupid proposals targeting men reveals that Sweden is (particularly) slanted against men, no surprise considering the "success" of Swedish feminism.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: You take stories and copy-paste them as evidence but you don't even say where it is from...
Sure I do. You just have shitty reading comprehension.
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: Furthermore, every example is cherry-picked to support your theory.
Since when were we supposed to provide examples against our own arguments? Are you going to start disproving yourself?
On August 21 2012 08:24 one-one-one wrote: I recall a quite recent example where the court argued that a raped woman had given clear signs that she wanted to have sex with the guy by "dressing in a sexy way". The prosecutors and lawyers of the accused rapist went very hard at her and forced her to answer humiliating questions about very personal and intimate stuff related about her sex life . All this under oath of course. Does all Swedish rape trials disfavor the woman because of this ? Does the Swedish judicial system consist of only man chauvinist pigs?
Specifically note the passage: " .... What we do know is that Assange will receive fair treatment by Swedish legal institutions. And, yes, their respect for the rule of law extends to accusations of sexual offenses. As recently as a few years ago, the Swedish Supreme Court explicitly ruled that the same high standard of proof applied to other criminal allegations are to be applied in cases of suspected rape. Similar criticisms of the Swedish legal system are based largely on myths and misconceptions. The framework of Sweden’s criminal law with respect to sexual offenses is no different from most other countries’. I will not be sentenced for rape if my condom breaks during a sexual act. But, like in many other countries, I can be convicted of rape if I have sex with a sleeping or unconscious person. ...."
A single Swedish law professor's opinion is not an authoritative indicator of fact, nor is it immune from bias. The actual article is dubious, as he argues that it is a fact that the Swedish judicial system is fair, despite this being philosophically impossible (fairness is an opinion, not an objective fact like the 2+2 = 4). He also insists that Swedish judges will not be externally influenced, despite the presence of lay judges who are political appointees. Göran Lambertz, the former Chancellor of Justice, published a 2009 study which reveals major problems with the Swedish judicial system, especially where sexual offenses are concerned (8 out of 11 of the wrongful convictions in the study are due to sexual offenses).
Your unreasonable approach to this issue, mirrored by many Swedish posters in this thread, is a strong indicator that you've been brainwashed by the state feminism controlled media. And before you insist that's not the case, consider this article by legendary Swedish feminist journalist Helene Borgman. When a legendary feminist thinks that state feminism has run amok, that's a pretty good indicator that something is wrong with Sweden.
Why did you go through all the trouble to write all that when I said that I wouldn't discuss with you anymore.
Because some people here aren't morons, and will actually read and learn from my arguments.
On August 22 2012 05:42 one-one-one wrote: But since you are willing to waste your time like this at least you could have answered my question: Have you actually been to Sweden?
Complete logical fallacy that's irrelevant to the discussion.
Sorry what's your argument exactly? That Sweden is a super feminist country where females are way favoured to men You're basing that on what exactly?
I'm arguing that Sweden's judicial system is stacked against men accused of rape (like most Western nations, only moreso due to a particularly strong feminist presence), and that this explains why Assange is wary of putting himself in Swedish hands. This is based on the piles of examples and evidence I've provided over the last several pages of this thread.
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: You're saying we're brain washed by propaganda while you're linking "freedom4assange" as an unbiased and credible source.
You must have me confused with someone else, since I haven't linked anything from "freedom4assange".
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: I mean I wouldn't even have to mention that the overwhelming majority of your other petty attempts of coming up with "evidence" that's loosely based on reality is from blogs and sensationalistic foreign news sites without interviews.
Due to feminist domination of Sweden's state media, there isn't a whole lot of evidence available from within Sweden (it also doesn't help that I can't read Swedish). I've still provided ample and compelling evidence, whether or not you choose to read it.
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: For the record Swedish men earn 15% more than Swedish women, while American men earn 19% more than American women. (2004-2006) http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Löneskillnader_mellan_män_och_kvinnor (I'm even linking the Swedish wikipedia, as I assume a person with your intimate knowledge of Swedish society surely knows the language). Wow, the women have extraordinary rights in this brain washed country, while the Americans keep up the proud heritage of unequal salaries between the genders... oh right it's only a 4% difference. As the American men only earn 19% more than the women, while the Korean men earn 38% more than the women, would you accept the fact that you are brainwashed by the American anti male propaganda?
The wage gap is a feminist myth based in lies and/or a failure to understand statistics. The numbers you quoted refer to the unadjusted wage gap, which fails to take into account major factors like occupation, hours worked, and qualifications like education and experience. Kind of major issues, don't you think? In reality, when women make the same choices as men, they make just as much or more. There was a recent study in the United States which confirmed that the pay gap is minimal if it exists at all and that the unadjusted wage gap is used in misleading ways to perpetuate the feminist agenda.
The fact that you buy into this feminist myth, despite all of your other posts indicating that you are an intelligent poster, is a pretty good example of feminist brainwashing.
On August 22 2012 10:58 Euronyme wrote: You live in a country where the patriot act has relieved you of every human right should you arbitrarily be branded a terrorist (which as Assange very well might be), and where Sarah Palin would've been vice president hadn't Obama won the election (and that was close), and you feel you're fit to call out propaganda in other countries? You're even arguing the fact that the Swedish justice system would give up to American pressure to break international law and hand Assange over, and you think the Swedes are the ones being brainwashed?
The Patriot Act is not an example of propaganda. The fact that I personally find America to be a more repressive state overall than Sweden also has no bearing on the actual issue we're discussing. Despite the many failings of the United States, we do benefit from unusually strong freedom of expression.
Even if Swedish state owned media was feminist dominated there are still private media corporations... Do you know that the three largest newspapers in Sweden are described as "liberal" or "liberal conservative" ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagens_Nyheter I read the columns in those newspapers every other day and I can clearly see that they are *very* critical towards most aspects of feminism due to their ideological stance. In fact, a common opinion among feminists and leftists in general is that it is a very serious problem that most of the medias are associated with right-wing ideology. Pretty ironic, huh? Indeed it doesn't help you that you can't read Swedish.
Who would have thought that if your nation was accused of being overly to the left, your people would often accuse your media of being "to the right"
Fox is dangerous, not becuase of the idiotic crap it spews, but becuase it makes people think that propaganda is obvious, to the point, and un-subtle.
In reality, Governments and companies pay vast sums of money, to very very clever individuals to manipulate the way their target audience think.
If your media (aimed at appealing to the people of your nation) are accused of being right wing,, what does that say about the people reading their material?
What a load of bullshit.
1. Feminism is not necessarily a left wing ideology, do you know that there is something called liberal feminism? 2. Sweden has also a lot of media with a left-political tag. 3. Sweden has a right-wing government. 4. Fox news ... is really something unique to the US. We don't have anything even close to as fucked up as Fox is.
Don't come here with your amateur theories, trying to explain the Swedish way. It is fucking arrogant.
EPT
