On September 21 2016 14:17 sundayyy wrote: I just evolved a 1679 Exeggutor (96% IV) but it has Confusion/Psychic Any use for this or should I just save up enough candies for another one and hope for Solar Beam?
Edit: As they mention, "Confusion + Psychic provides immense STAB type-coverage, and punishes all attackers regardless of type (while still maintaining the favorable matchup vs Vaporeon)."
On September 21 2016 01:23 Logo wrote: I regularly train my Victreebell and Vileplume against a Vaporeon of ~800-1000 CP higher than them and they win pretty consistently so long as you dodge the special attacks (if you don't it's close-ish). It's way easier than doing the same with my vaporeon that's higher CP than the one I am training against (even before the training xp penalty).
If you're gonna dodge the specials with Victreebell/Vileplume, you can do it with Vaporeon too you know
If you're claiming a defending Vaporeon with lower CP can kill yours with only water guns, I don't know what to say. Unless you meant it prestiges slower in which case yeah, of course.
On September 21 2016 01:23 Logo wrote: I regularly train my Victreebell and Vileplume against a Vaporeon of ~800-1000 CP higher than them and they win pretty consistently so long as you dodge the special attacks (if you don't it's close-ish). It's way easier than doing the same with my vaporeon that's higher CP than the one I am training against (even before the training xp penalty).
If you're gonna dodge the specials with Victreebell/Vileplume, you can do it with Vaporeon too you know
If you're claiming a defending Vaporeon with lower CP can kill yours with only water guns, I don't know what to say. Unless you meant it prestiges slower in which case yeah, of course.
Huh? The point is that the DPS a vaporeon puts out is way below what a Exeggutor/Victreebell/Venusaur/Vileplume puts out against water types (actually against all non-resistant types, but even more so for water), it's way faster to kill a Vaporeon using one of those three than it is to use your own Vaporeon. If you dodge the special moves your pokemon will survive either way. Vaporeon has a terrible attack stat, even though it's moves are great it's low attack doesn't make it notably effective in battle over other pokemons. There's a lot of other pokemon that put out more damage and have comparable enough stamina/defense where they should have more gas in the tank after the fight compared to Vaporeon because of how much faster the fight goes.
My point is that it's pretty easy to beat a 2k+ Vaporeon with a 1.2-1.5k Grass Type and it happens much faster than a Vaporeon vs Vaporeon fight. I'd rather fight a 1.5k Victreebell vs a 2k Vaporeon than a 2k Vaporeon vs a 2k Vaporeon because of how much longer that takes (and the risk of timeout).
Though I do need to edit my previous comments... The energy for certain attacks were adjusted recently and not all sites have updated the data. So now it's pretty firmly Exeggutor > Victreebell > Venusaur > Vileplume because Exeggutor now charges Solar Beam faster than the others and Vine Whip is no longer that much faster than Razor Leaf in energy generation. This actually happened a little while ago I think, but I didn't realize the site I was using never updated it's data (grrr...)
I just evolved a 1679 Exeggutor (96% IV) but it has Confusion/Psychic Any use for this or should I just save up enough candies for another one and hope for Solar Beam?
Save candy, keep the pokemon. The moves are good enough to train gyms or battle effectively, but you'll probably want to try for Zen Headbutt/Solar Beam because it's noticeably better. Only power it up if you really need a pokemon to hold or take gyms right now (which really is a good general rule of thumb).
On September 22 2016 00:18 Dante08 wrote: Can someone share the link of where it explains why Pidgeot is a good pokemon?
No link, but Pidgeot just has pretty solid stats (notably decent stamina) and pretty decent moves with the optimal moveset. They do more DPS than a Snorlax all things considered. So if you are good at dodging they can be useful for training.
Unless you meant it prestiges slower in which case yeah, of course.
When reading your post the first time I thought you said you couldn't kill a defending Vaporeon with a higher CP one.
Well the point of the list is to show how much more damage the grass types do over a Vaporeon even before the type bonuses swing it into their favor.
The attacker tier list is just as useless in this case because it assumes you know nothing about the types you're facing and is providing a generalized list against the 'average' pokemon. The only reason Venusaur and Victreebel aren't tier 1.5 is because they're "hard countered by arcanine and dragonite" which is irrelevant for the question of facing water pokemon.
I don't know how you're really agreeing with me.
Water gun will do marginally less damage than Vine Whip, but your Vaporeon will stay alive much longer. Solar beam will wreck, hydro pump still does more than respectable damage though.
Just isn't really true, the gap is quite significant once you take into account the typing bonuses & the attack power difference. The difference is about as large as Vaporeon's HP advantage.
Water gun will do marginally less damage than Vine Whip, but your Vaporeon will stay alive much longer. Solar beam will wreck, hydro pump still does more than respectable damage though.
Just isn't really true, the gap is quite significant once you take into account the typing bonuses & the attack power difference. The difference is about as large as Vaporeon's HP advantage.
Vine whip has 16.8 DPS v water, Water gun has 12 DPS v water. The attack stat difference is 12, the HP stat difference is 100.
"The difference is about as large as the HP advantage." Mhm.
Do you understand the concept of TTL (Time To Live)? The longer you live, the more attacks you get off. You can have lower DPS but almost twice the HP pool and be a better attacker...
It's completely applicable in every situation since neither attacking pokemon is going to faint in a fight because all the ones being talked about have a reasonably high amount of HP and you can dodge.
Tier lists like that are not useful in this discussion. Snorlax is the best pokemon to have if you have to have 1 pokemon to fight a gym. None of that matters once you add the limitation of "fighting a water pokemon" which no one makes tier charts for. The point of that list is if you are fighting against the unknown then power up a Lick/Hyper Beam Snorlax over anything else, but that's not what we're talking about.
You'd need to show info on how the stats scale to make a claim that 100 stamina is worth more than 10 attack (or vice versa). The formula isn't as straightforward as just saying 100 stamina = 100 attack (not to mention in this case it has to be 100 stamina > 10 attack + dealing 1.2x instead of x.8 damage.
Do you understand the concept of TTL (Time To Live)? The longer you live, the more attacks you get off. You can have lower DPS but almost twice the HP pool and be a better attacker...
Dead pokemon don't attack, attackers can dodge, and total DPS isn't a constant over a fight because of charge moves. You aren't battling some hypothetical infinite HP pokemon enemy.
TTL isn't even really that relevant as a comparison, the grass types are dealing about the same boost in damage (i.e. about 60% more) as Vaporeon has in increased HP compared to the grass types. For Exeggutor the balance is even more favorable for Exeggutor.
There's so many compounding factors that matter that you can't just dismiss. Yes a Vaporeon has a lot more HP, but that HP gain is completely offset if you are fighting a water type.
On September 23 2016 04:00 Logo wrote: It's completely applicable in every situation.
We'll just agree to disagree right here. Even if you dodge you take 25% damage, and you take a lot more hits since you have to wait and dodge (except Vaporeon who has water gun and gets 3 quick attacks in between each dodge, Vine whip can't do this!).
HP and DEF matter in every single situation and a DPS list is silly (hello Snorlax in 35th place), how you cannot see that is beyond me but it is what it is.
On September 23 2016 04:00 Logo wrote: It's completely applicable in every situation.
We'll just agree to disagree right here. Even if you dodge you take 25% damage, and you take a lot more hits since you have to wait and dodge. HP and DEF matter in every single situation and a DPS list is silly (hello Snorlax in 35th place), how you cannot see that is beyond me but it is what it is.
(You only need to dodge the special attacks to mitigate most of the damage coming from enemies, especially for water types because how weak water gun is on defense. You can dodge everything, but if you just want to win the fight dodging specials will do it without impacting your DPS much).
How you can you not understand that a pokemon with 60% more HP compared to a pokemon dealing 60% more damage is pretty even?
How can you not understand that whether you have 50hp or 100hp left after winning a fight is largely irrelevant in this game?
If you're talking about chaining battles and fighting multiple water types back to back, there's way too many compounding factors there (i.e even with a lower TTL with only a proportional DPS increase a Victreebel may deal significantly more damage if it dies right after using Solar Beam compared to a Vaporeon dieing right before finishing the charge on a special or maybe the Victreebel wastes DPS by overkilling a water type). Calling it a wash doesn't help your case because it would just imply that they're even as the #s suggest when you take into account type advantage.
I used to have a script that automatically disabled youtube comments. It's like inhaling lead particles, even small accidental readings of youtube comments is enough to kill brain cells. Unfortunately, a firefox update removed the script and I was too lazy to get a new one. It also helps that videos are now big enough that I don't see comments unless I deliberately scroll down.
On September 23 2016 04:00 Logo wrote: It's completely applicable in every situation.
We'll just agree to disagree right here. Even if you dodge you take 25% damage, and you take a lot more hits since you have to wait and dodge. HP and DEF matter in every single situation and a DPS list is silly (hello Snorlax in 35th place), how you cannot see that is beyond me but it is what it is.
How can you not understand that whether you have 50hp or 100hp left after winning a fight is largely irrelevant in this game?
Suppose this is where we disagree. The only situation I can think of where this is irrelevant is if there's only 1 pokemon left in the gym.. Any other time it matters.
To try and get through to you one last time
Vaporeon's cycle goes dodge - attack - attack - attack - dodge - ... He'll take 1 damage from the defender's water gun, and dish out 4 damage with his own, so 12 per cycle. (Assuming the defender is a vaporeon with identical stats.)
So there's 2 options with Venusaur: dodge - attack - attack - dodge - ... Vine whip doesn't allow for 3 attacks. In this scenario venusaur also takes 1 damage per water gun, and dishes out 14 with his 2 vine whips. That's 16,6% more damage, not 60. Adding specials will make this number go up, but not to 60, not even close.
Option 2: Only dodge specials and eat all quick attacks. Then Venusaur takes 3 damage per water gun and dishes out roughly 21 in the time it takes the attacking vaporeon to do 16. (19.5 seconds vs ~20.5 seconds)
Keep in mind defenders have their HP doubled (see www.reddit.com), so the Venusaur has 132 HP, the defending Vaporeon has 422... If you're opting to eat every single water gun you'll survive with very little HP, or not at all. You'll need at least 3 solar beams to get him down, which means also eating 2-3 dodged Hydro pumps.
edit: Actually Water Pulse is the best special for defending Vaporeon, for the simple reason that it's hard to dodge. So dodging specials isn't trivial either.
Feel free to try this next time you face a vaporeon. Dodging every attack with your own will still kill it quickly whilst taking very little damage. Saves max potions. Your Venusaur will drop below half health and will need a potion after every battle.
Adding specials will make this number go up, but not to 60, not even close.
You can't calculate 1/2 of the formula and leave out the most important part. That's ridiculous, most damage comes from charge moves not regular attacks.
See the above chart I linked. Even against a Snorlax the Venusaur takes 42% hp dmg compared to Vaporeon's 30% when dodging all moves (unless you have good evidence the poster's methodology is wrong). Applying that to the hp totals would mean Venusaur is taking 55.44 damage compared to Vaporeon's 88.62 against a snorlax. And that's without a huge type advantage working in Venusaur's favor.
I don't know why you're telling me to "try it out". I've been wiping the floor with Vaporeon's using my Vileplume and Victreebel for months now.
On September 23 2016 20:50 Logo wrote: I don't know why you're telling me to "try it out". I've been wiping the floor with Vaporeon's using my Vileplume and Victreebel for months now.
As I suspected, you don't even have a Venusaur lmao. I have one with vine whip solar beam and I can assure you Vaporeon conserves potions better.
Likewise your Vileplume and Victreebell will wipe the floor with vaporeons I have no doubt, but your own Vaporeon can do so too while using less potions.
After some hours in Holland park (cluster nest): imgur.com Same guy 30 mins later imgur.com
Wonder IVs and best moveset, still my Wonder Vaporeon does better v Vaporeons.
But again, get yourself a Venusaur, and try it out.
Idk why you would refer to the Snorlax chart, all it shows is that Snorlax is the best attacker (takes 24% damage), Vaporeon the 2nd best, tied with Lapras, better than Dragonite (which is... weird and makes me question OP's method but w/e Vaporeon is a beast so it's well possible), Venusaur is 9th.. great. The type effectiveness does not suddenly make him better than Vaporeon I assure you.
When the metric is potion conservation, of course. If you care more about winning 10 seconds at the cost of spending max potions, then more power to you.
We are talking about grass types in general, why does it matter if I use a Victreebel or Venusaur? We were never talking about strictly the Venusaur, it just happens to be better than Victtreebel (but worse than Exeggutor). Victreebel does amazingly well, Venusaur should do about the same (or better).
On September 20 2016 16:52 Laurens wrote: Venusaur's HP ratio is 160, Vaporeon's is 260. Water gun will do marginally less damage than Vine Whip, but your Vaporeon will stay alive much longer. Solar beam will wreck, hydro pump still does more than respectable damage though.
Venusaur also has ~10 more attack stat and ~30 more def, but I believe the massive HP difference could still give Vaporeon the edge. Either way it will be quite close.
And commented:
Just isn't really true, the gap is quite significant once you take into account the typing bonuses & the attack power difference. The difference is about as large as Vaporeon's HP advantage.
That's what these last few posts have been about -_-
EPT
Any use for this or should I just save up enough candies for another one and hope for Solar Beam?
