EPT2011 Running Thread - Page 3
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AnxiousHippo
Australia1451 Posts
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LolitsPing
United States285 Posts
18 min 5k (PR currently is 20min) Break 5 min mile (PR currently is 5:17) 53s 400m (PR 55.9) I may be a 400m runner but its currently off-season for track and I like long distance running. Personally, I don't listen to music while I run because you're not allowed to have music during races and its better for the lungs if you're talking with your friends on a long 1 hr relax run. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On April 27 2011 16:15 [SuNdae] wrote: Thanks for the tips.The music is a good idea, but I dont really like to listen to anything while I run, guess I'm weird like that. I used to be overweight couple of years ago. I still could lose maybe 5-7 pounds(143lb / 5.57f at the moment), but its not a big deal. Should be no prob with my current mileage. As for running 5k, I'm pretty sure I can do under 21min without too much trouble. Also, just for curiosity, if I wanted to reach the fabled 18min 5k mark, would I be better off running 10k regularly or just by drilling the 5k? Ah, with a 21 5k you'll have no trouble with sub 2 half-marathon. As far as the times go for 5k its all about the mileage. Whats most common in training is periodization, which is basically breaking your running up into different segments of what your trying to do. Usually from 2 or 3 months or longer from the race your just base building. This consists of mostly long, easy distance (pace should be very comfortable and easy to hold a conversation, you shouldn't feel like your working at all), with a weekly long run of about 20-30% of your weekly mileage coming from that, so a 40 mpw would have a long run of anywhere from 8-13 miles or so. One other day of the week can be some sort of tempo run, which is basically a pace you could sustain for an hour or so. It should be "comfortably hard", you shouldn't be suffering like you would in a race, but it should be no means be easy. Usually these will be about 1:00-1:30 per mile faster than your easy jogging pace. The goal of basebuilding is to build up your aerobic base as much as possible. In base training you pretty much want to get your mileage as high as possible. 10% increase in mileage per week is a pretty common ballpark figure given out, but many people can't increase quite that fast without getting injured. Just add a few miles on each week, and every 2-4 weeks have a cutback week where you halve the mileage you have been doing. As far as how much mileage the general answer is more is better. If you can get to 70-100 mpw thats fantastic, provided you don't get injured or overtrained. Everyone is different though and not everyones body adapts to increased training at the same rate or maxed volume. Some aches and pains are normal, and the general rule is that is it gets worse during a run: STOP. Thats working towards a serious injury, take a few days off, cross train, and let it heal. If the soreness/pain stays the same or improves once you start running you can often run through the injury, but lightening up on the volume and intensity is smart. As you get to within a couple months of your goal race you transition out the the base phase, and with generally reduced mileage start doing more speed oriented training to sharpen for the race. You can tempo more, and start adding intervals, which are beautifully explained here: http://www.runningahead.com/forums/post/7e95fbbcb119401b942bd0d9443755a1#focus. Having that great base is good because the more base you have the greater intensity and duration of speedwork your body can handle without getting injured or worn-down. In the last week or two leading up to the race you cut your mileage even more and just take it easy so you have nice rested, fresh legs for your goal race. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On April 27 2011 18:35 35spike1 wrote: My goal's to just start running regularly. Maybe try to get 3k in 18 minutes? I've been going more for stomach muscles recently... Just remember to take it easy. Seems like 90% of new runners run way harder than they should be. Most runs should be very comfortable, with you easily able to get out multiple sentences in one breath. If it hurts, you're doing it wrong. Quote instead of edit. T_T | ||
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[SuNdae]
Finland323 Posts
On April 27 2011 23:11 L_Master wrote: + Show Spoiler + Ah, with a 21 5k you'll have no trouble with sub 2 half-marathon. As far as the times go for 5k its all about the mileage. Whats most common in training is periodization, which is basically breaking your running up into different segments of what your trying to do. Usually from 2 or 3 months or longer from the race your just base building. This consists of mostly long, easy distance (pace should be very comfortable and easy to hold a conversation, you shouldn't feel like your working at all), with a weekly long run of about 20-30% of your weekly mileage coming from that, so a 40 mpw would have a long run of anywhere from 8-13 miles or so. One other day of the week can be some sort of tempo run, which is basically a pace you could sustain for an hour or so. It should be "comfortably hard", you shouldn't be suffering like you would in a race, but it should be no means be easy. Usually these will be about 1:00-1:30 per mile faster than your easy jogging pace. The goal of basebuilding is to build up your aerobic base as much as possible. In base training you pretty much want to get your mileage as high as possible. 10% increase in mileage per week is a pretty common ballpark figure given out, but many people can't increase quite that fast without getting injured. Just add a few miles on each week, and every 2-4 weeks have a cutback week where you halve the mileage you have been doing. As far as how much mileage the general answer is more is better. If you can get to 70-100 mpw thats fantastic, provided you don't get injured or overtrained. Everyone is different though and not everyones body adapts to increased training at the same rate or maxed volume. Some aches and pains are normal, and the general rule is that is it gets worse during a run: STOP. Thats working towards a serious injury, take a few days off, cross train, and let it heal. If the soreness/pain stays the same or improves once you start running you can often run through the injury, but lightening up on the volume and intensity is smart. As you get to within a couple months of your goal race you transition out the the base phase, and with generally reduced mileage start doing more speed oriented training to sharpen for the race. You can tempo more, and start adding intervals, which are beautifully explained here: http://www.runningahead.com/forums/post/7e95fbbcb119401b942bd0d9443755a1#focus. Having that great base is good because the more base you have the greater intensity and duration of speedwork your body can handle without getting injured or worn-down. In the last week or two leading up to the race you cut your mileage even more and just take it easy so you have nice rested, fresh legs for your goal race. Wow, thanks for the info  I feel like I'm off to a good start as far as basebuilding goes. | ||
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kittymakemybed
14 Posts
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On April 27 2011 19:12 LolitsPing wrote: Goals for this Year 18 min 5k (PR currently is 20min) Break 5 min mile (PR currently is 5:17) 53s 400m (PR 55.9) I may be a 400m runner but its currently off-season for track and I like long distance running. Personally, I don't listen to music while I run because you're not allowed to have music during races and its better for the lungs if you're talking with your friends on a long 1 hr relax run. Wow! That's a great 400m time! I'm getting back into shape and just ran my first 5k a few weeks ago at exactly 23:00. My goal was anything in the 22's :/ But, I'm still happy with that. I'm running my next one tomorrow and hope to be in the 21's this time. I'm shooting for about 21:50. Back in high school my mile time was right at about what yours is now, but I was nowhere near that 400 time, great job man. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On April 27 2011 16:15 [SuNdae] wrote: Thanks for the tips.The music is a good idea, but I dont really like to listen to anything while I run, guess I'm weird like that. I used to be overweight couple of years ago. I still could lose maybe 5-7 pounds(143lb / 5.57f at the moment), but its not a big deal. Should be no prob with my current mileage. As for running 5k, I'm pretty sure I can do under 21min without too much trouble. Also, just for curiosity, if I wanted to reach the fabled 18min 5k mark, would I be better off running 10k regularly or just by drilling the 5k? In order to pass through the barrier of ~21 mins to ~18, you're going to need to up your mileage. I disagree, however, with L_Master on how much. I think he is a naturally gifted long distance runner and favors mileage bordering insanity. Others, like myself, favor shorter distances and so excel in middle distance races (5k/10k). For a fast 5k, you do, indeed, want to up your mileage, maybe even significantly from where you are, up to about 30-40 miles per week, just to give you a ballpark. But, a 5k has a lot to do with stamina, not just endurance. 5k's require a good deal of speedwork. This means 800s, 1600s, even 400s and below. You want to get your muscles used to running that kind of speed. Because, to get an 18 min 5k, you are going to have to be hauling some butt  The 18-minuter is a goal of mine as well, but I'm nowhere close to that, yet. I have to get under 21 first! edit: I want to be clear that I don't think L_Master is wrong, I just think there are other ways of achieving the same goal. And, for me, it's not running a billion miles a week, hah! If you favor the high mileage though, go for it. I lean more toward track than cross country. | ||
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SonicTitan
United States249 Posts
Break my 1:00 min 400 Just train regularly I've recently started leaving the ipod at home, and it's made a huge difference. My fiance is into yoga, and ujjayi breathing has been so hilariously effective at helping me maintain form and speed that I'm kicking myself for not trying it before. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On April 29 2011 00:38 danl9rm wrote: In order to pass through the barrier of ~21 mins to ~18, you're going to need to up your mileage. I disagree, however, with L_Master on how much. I think he is a naturally gifted long distance runner and favors mileage bordering insanity. Others, like myself, favor shorter distances and so excel in middle distance races (5k/10k). For a fast 5k, you do, indeed, want to up your mileage, maybe even significantly from where you are, up to about 30-40 miles per week, just to give you a ballpark. But, a 5k has a lot to do with stamina, not just endurance. 5k's require a good deal of speedwork. This means 800s, 1600s, even 400s and below. You want to get your muscles used to running that kind of speed. Because, to get an 18 min 5k, you are going to have to be hauling some butt The 18-minuter is a goal of mine as well, but I'm nowhere close to that, yet. I have to get under 21 first! edit: I want to be clear that I don't think L_Master is wrong, I just think there are other ways of achieving the same goal. And, for me, it's not running a billion miles a week, hah! If you favor the high mileage though, go for it. I lean more toward track than cross country. Hmm, yea reading that again I should definitely clarify some. When I talked about 70-100+ mpw I didn't intend to imply that you need to run that much for an 18:00 5K, you can race a pretty decent 5K off somewhere around 40 MPW probably, too much less than that however and your just not going to have the training to run at your potential. For instance if your a 5:00 miler, you should be able to run a 17:20 5K, but without the mileage base you would probably only run 17:40-18:00. Basically 20-40 MPW is just fine for improving your times, staying in shape, and doing the shorter races like mile, 5K, and maybe even 10K. Plenty of H.S. runners with some talent race 17's, or even 16's off nothing more than 20 or 30 MPW. However, if you are a very serious runner that wants to tap every last bit of his potential your going to need a significant amount of mileage. Speedwork, threshold training, and the like are indeed very crucial to running your best 5K time, but thats where the mileage comes in. If your running 30 MPW, you just can't do much speedwork, and unless your lucky trying to do a bunch will wind up with you getting overtrained or injured, because your body is only prepared for a certain capacity of work. That massive "base" is what supports the high volumes an frequencies of speedwork that lets you run your best. It's important to remember that while the 10K, 5K, and mile all require a not insignificant amount of speed they are distance events. Even training for just the mile elite runners will be over 70, and probably upwards of 100 mpw. Most runners in college will be running at least 50mpw per week on the low side, and to 70+ on the higher side, from what I have read it just depends on the program your at. So in sum, I'm not trying to advocate that you need to go out and run a boatload of miles and then sum, you can do just fine for most races at 20+ mpw, however if your body can handle it and you increase gradually and avoid injury (always the crucial part) more miles are almost always a good thing. There is no set amount of miles you need to run though, some people can only handle 70 miles per week, others can easily run 160; its all about listening to your body and not trying to bite of more than you can handle. Don't fall into the trap of thinking you need to run over 9000 miles a week if you want to be a good runner, because that really isn't the case. On April 29 2011 00:55 SonicTitan wrote: 12:00 min 2 mile Break my 1:00 min 400 Just train regularly I've recently started leaving the ipod at home, and it's made a huge difference. My fiance is into yoga, and ujjayi breathing has been so hilariously effective at helping me maintain form and speed that I'm kicking myself for not trying it before. 2M is definitely a distance goal, but the 400 is a sprint; can't say I know alot here about training both styles at once of the effectiveness of it. I'm guessing if you're not highly trained one way or the other you can probably make good progress at both however. Also you people that can run without music are crazy, I just can't stand it at all. Kinda need to learn it though since a decent number of races (especially trail ones) don't allow music. On April 29 2011 12:08 DoubleZee wrote: Damn knee is barking at me again. ITBS for the loss  Running injuries suck. Hard. | ||
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DoubleZee
Canada556 Posts
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MooseyFate
United States237 Posts
For you folks that are newer to running long distance, here are some things that I have learned: 1) Know your body. People on the sidelines will be handing out all kinds of things for you to eat/drink and telling you why you need it. Make sure you don't eat something unless you KNOW it won't make you sick/give you cramps. Basically, unless you ate/drank something while training, don't do it during the race. I made the mistake of eating a piece of banana that was shoved in my face during my first marathon (mile 22ish) in Chicago (the year it got to 85 during the race, nice choice for a first race...) and immediately puked. I should have known better, I love bananas but I can't eat them before/during/after a run or I will almost always puke. Been this way since I can remember but when someone is yelling "YOU NEED POTASSIUM! YOU NEED POTASSIUM" and practically throwing it at you, you forget common sense. Especially 22 miles in. Had a similar problem with Powerade this past year in OBX. Blue puke. Awesome. 2) If you are running faster than a 9-10 minute/mile pace, get to the start early and get a good spot in the corral. Otherwise you'll end up running an extra 5 miles over the course of the entire race because you'll be running side-to-side passing people until mile 15. This is a bigger problem at crowded races. 3) Walking through the water stations to ensure you hydrate well is much better than spilling 80% of the water on yourself when you try to run/drink at the same time. Generally speaking, if you spend 30 seconds walking at each station, you may add 5-6 minutes to your total time for a Marathon. Totally worth it if you've ever been dehydrated and 1.5 miles from the next sip of H2O. Also, you run less risk of tripping over the hundreds of cups (or god forbid, water bottles) that usually litter the ground. 4) Yoga reduced my recovery time after a long run from a couple days to a couple hours. I know there are a lot of arguments for/against stretching and running but I only started yoga this last year and I could walk up and down stairs without hesitation 2 hours after the race, where as before it took me days to not look like a grandpa. Walking down stairs backwards is a pretty humbling experience for someone who just ran 26.2 miles. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On April 30 2011 05:26 MooseyFate wrote: Running my 4th marathon this year in OBX. Hope to finally get a 3:30 or better, but I'd be really happy to get under 3:45. I'm not a hardcore runner, I just love to do it and Marathons are a great challenge. Every year I have fallen short of my goal, but I have learned something important with each race. For you folks that are newer to running long distance, here are some things that I have learned: 1) Know your body. People on the sidelines will be handing out all kinds of things for you to eat/drink and telling you why you need it. Make sure you don't eat something unless you KNOW it won't make you sick/give you cramps. Basically, unless you ate/drank something while training, don't do it during the race. I made the mistake of eating a piece of banana that was shoved in my face during my first marathon (mile 22ish) in Chicago (the year it got to 85 during the race, nice choice for a first race...) and immediately puked. I should have known better, I love bananas but I can't eat them before/during/after a run or I will almost always puke. Been this way since I can remember but when someone is yelling "YOU NEED POTASSIUM! YOU NEED POTASSIUM" and practically throwing it at you, you forget common sense. Especially 22 miles in. Had a similar problem with Powerade this past year in OBX. Blue puke. Awesome. 2) If you are running faster than a 9-10 minute/mile pace, get to the start early and get a good spot in the corral. Otherwise you'll end up running an extra 5 miles over the course of the entire race because you'll be running side-to-side passing people until mile 15. This is a bigger problem at crowded races. 3) Walking through the water stations to ensure you hydrate well is much better than spilling 80% of the water on yourself when you try to run/drink at the same time. Generally speaking, if you spend 30 seconds walking at each station, you may add 5-6 minutes to your total time for a Marathon. Totally worth it if you've ever been dehydrated and 1.5 miles from the next sip of H2O. Also, you run less risk of tripping over the hundreds of cups (or god forbid, water bottles) that usually litter the ground. 4) Yoga reduced my recovery time after a long run from a couple days to a couple hours. I know there are a lot of arguments for/against stretching and running but I only started yoga this last year and I could walk up and down stairs without hesitation 2 hours after the race, where as before it took me days to not look like a grandpa. Walking down stairs backwards is a pretty humbling experience for someone who just ran 26.2 miles. Hahaha 1-3 are sooooo true! Listen to what this man has to say, its sound advice. Can't comment on the yoga since I have never tried any of that sorta stuff. Yea, thats really solid. While the 400m isn't a distance race, it does tell me that you have more than enough, and then some when it comes to the speed needed to break 5:00. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
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LolitsPing
United States285 Posts
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calgar
United States1277 Posts
I'm hoping to break 4 but I'm not exactly sure if I'll be able to! I like to envision myself at the 25 mile marker with something like 8:15 to go and having to push really hard to cross right at 3:59:59. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On May 09 2011 06:44 calgar wrote: Ahh this was a good read! I'm training for the San Francisco marathon July 31st and I'm like 8 weeks into my program now... did 15 miles today and it wasn't exactly easy but I made it I'm hoping to break 4 but I'm not exactly sure if I'll be able to! I like to envision myself at the 25 mile marker with something like 8:15 to go and having to push really hard to cross right at 3:59:59.Any idea how fast you can run for another distance like 5k, 10k, or half-marathon? Also at what sort of pace and effort was that long run at? | ||
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calgar
United States1277 Posts
On May 10 2011 15:05 L_Master wrote: I did 15 miles at a 9:23 pace, took it easy but completely ran out of energy at the end. I think that's pretty close to the pace you need to break 4? So that's another 2.5 months to be able to do another 11 I guess! haven't run a 5k in years but I think it was around the 21:00 mark.Any idea how fast you can run for another distance like 5k, 10k, or half-marathon? Also at what sort of pace and effort was that long run at? | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On May 11 2011 03:30 calgar wrote: I did 15 miles at a 9:23 pace, took it easy but completely ran out of energy at the end. I think that's pretty close to the pace you need to break 4? So that's another 2.5 months to be able to do another 11 I guess! haven't run a 5k in years but I think it was around the 21:00 mark. Assuming your still near 21:00 for a 5k, 4 should be very manageable. A person in 21:00 shape for a 5k has the potential for around 3:25 for a marathon, which is 7:50/mile pace. Obviously, if you haven't been running 70-100+ mpw for several years you aren't going to be able to match the prediction, but as long as you build up mileage and get some good long runs in before the race you should have no problem holding your easy jog pace, which should be anywhere between 8:15/mile to 9:15/mile, and I'd expect that to drop some more as you approach the marathon if you hadn't been doing significant training beforehand. As a 21 5Ker that 9:23 pace should have been quite comfortable in and of itself (assuming the trail wasn't incredibly challenging) and you're likely tired due to the large amount of mileage your body hasn't experienced before. What is your weekly mileage currently? I recommend trying to get to around 40 mpw and get in maybe 2 or 3 more long runs somewhere between 18-20 miles. It is certainly not neccesary to run the full distance before the marathon, and really the only argument for doing so is a psychological one. The long runs are a nice plus, but the weekly mileage is really the key to being strong for a marathon. 40 mpw with 8 or 9 miles as your longest run is far superior to 20-25 miles a week average with a few long runs of 20+ thrown in. Yes, for someone trying to race a marathon near their potential long runs and their variants (MP middle miles, fast finish, etc) are incredibly important, but overall mileage and base is better than just having a few long runs with very minimal mileage supporting them. A 4:00:00 marathon is about 9:10 pace. | ||
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calgar
United States1277 Posts
On May 11 2011 12:29 L_Master wrote: Ah wow, thanks for all the info! That's encouraging that 4 should be manageable... I think I could still manage something in the vicinity of 21 for a 5k. I'll have to look up a few short races locally and try and run them as part of training. Assuming your still near 21:00 for a 5k, 4 should be very manageable. A person in 21:00 shape for a 5k has the potential for around 3:25 for a marathon, which is 7:50/mile pace. Obviously, if you haven't been running 70-100+ mpw for several years you aren't going to be able to match the prediction, but as long as you build up mileage and get some good long runs in before the race you should have no problem holding your easy jog pace, which should be anywhere between 8:15/mile to 9:15/mile, and I'd expect that to drop some more as you approach the marathon if you hadn't been doing significant training beforehand. As a 21 5Ker that 9:23 pace should have been quite comfortable in and of itself (assuming the trail wasn't incredibly challenging) and you're likely tired due to the large amount of mileage your body hasn't experienced before. What is your weekly mileage currently? I recommend trying to get to around 40 mpw and get in maybe 2 or 3 more long runs somewhere between 18-20 miles. It is certainly not neccesary to run the full distance before the marathon, and really the only argument for doing so is a psychological one. The long runs are a nice plus, but the weekly mileage is really the key to being strong for a marathon. 40 mpw with 8 or 9 miles as your longest run is far superior to 20-25 miles a week average with a few long runs of 20+ thrown in. Yes, for someone trying to race a marathon near their potential long runs and their variants (MP middle miles, fast finish, etc) are incredibly important, but overall mileage and base is better than just having a few long runs with very minimal mileage supporting them. A 4:00:00 marathon is about 9:10 pace. As for 70-100mpw+ for years, that made me lol  I'm not a very hardcore runner and have only started up again from nothing in the past 4 months. I'm loosely using the higdon intermediate II plan and I'm around 35 mpw now, pushing towards 40 and I'm pretty sure it gets to ~50 mpw at the highest with a 20 long run 3 times. You're right that the pace itself was comfortable but I don't think I've ever run 15 at once before so the mileage in itself was very tiring. I still have 9 weeks of long runs of 12+ miles before my race though so hopefully I'll be a little more accustomed by then! I'm not too concerned about reaching my potential or anything, I enjoy running but I don't think I could stay at such a high mileage level permanently. As long as I get 4 I'll be stoked :D | ||
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