|
United States2186 Posts
Hmm, while pretty indepth, I don't agree with the thesis and some of the evidence at all. As someone who has watched almost all of Flash's games, he almost never wins just because of mechanics. When Flash just plays standard against A level players, much less S level players, he does really badly (all his losses vs Jaedong outside of Loki, game 2 vs Lux). Flash's success comes from predicting his opponent's actions and gaining maximum economic advantage or good build orders at the right times. He's definitely a neo-iloveoov, winning with intelligence and game sense. And Bacchus was the final most won on intelligence, the only other one coming close is Shinhan oov vs July.
His mechanics are similar to old Savior: very solid, but they don't win games alone. Jaedong for example, can win games solely with obscene mechanics. Look at game 3 vs Lomo on Katrina or his game on Blue Storm vs Upmagic (in the semis).
There is a definite difference between mechanics that win on their own and mechanics that flawlessly execute strategies. Jaedong is the former, Flash is the latter.
Who else besides Jaedong has these mechanics that can win games on their own? Bisu is really the only one that comes to mind. Stork's mechanics are very good but imo not really at the same level.
It's really the same as in the past. Nada, July, and Kingdom were all players who were a head above the rest with mechanics and were able to win so much because of it (you could make an argument for Boxer/Casy but the tvp issues...). To draw the same parallel, Reach had amazing mechanics but they more supported his play, while Kingdom's mechanics simply raped. I don't think anything has really changed or will change for the foreseeable future.
|
On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you
I shouldnt drag this up but I gotta agree with all the people that defended me. Maybe you have a point but you gotta argue with real facts and not just flame.
I dont have very much knowledge about Savior (I havent watched all his games) but for example the MSL final vs Bisu he did the exact same build order every game. And I'm not saying he did that in all of his games but in the most of his games he did his good old macro opening.
|
Yes, Mind Over Mechanics, it was already thus
July experience > best mechanics
Stork experiece > fantasy mechanics
but both mechanics and experience have incredible role in starcraft thats why its so fantastic
|
I'm not sure I agree fully. While mindgames have the advantage of throwing the opponent offguard, it doesn't and will not win you the game unless you can utterly and completely shatter your opponents concentration. While using tripple bunker-rush as a mindgame worked for boxer against yellow, he couldn't throw oov offguard enough to take it home. Oovs mechanics and strong will simply prevailed.
In the end, mindgames are basically very out-of-the-box mechanics, and any player with an open mind can accomplish this. Jaedong for example can play mindgames by relying on his mechanics alone; he doesn't need to do some low-econ strategy with weird units mixed in like boxer does to still completely overwhelm his opponent with something unexpected. Like when he did nothing but mutas in his bo5 vs much in the first two games, or completely skipped hydratech against corsairs on katrina in the finals vs stork. Flash completely changed how katrina was played TvP with his awesome goliath-focused build etc.
My point is, while mindgames are, and always has been, strong, they are really only so vs players that aren't innovative or have an open mind to begin with, and thus are not something that can beat a player a very strong player that relies on mechanics; if that was the case, boxer would've beaten oov 4 years ago.
Then we have players like BeSt with strong mechanics but not much else; strong like hell, but innovative like a cucumber, which is why july beat him. Stork didn't beat Fantasy by playing mindgames or anything; if he did, he would've won 3-0, but instead he himself almost lost 2-3. Strong mechanics prevailed in the end, and always will do unless the opponent truly is insecure and/or strictly orthodox in his play. What it all comes down to is how secure the player is in doing straight-up play - if he can't win by it, he'll HAVE to rely on something else, but this doesn't mean that all those old-school players will suddenly start winning because they have some 'style', 'flair' and 'experience' that new-school players for some reason would lack; it's because their only way of winning nowadays is by finding new ways to disturb the mechanic type players from playing their type of game. This isn't some kind of revolution that will suddenly throw players like JD and Flash from the top, rather it'll just develop into new mechanics and methods for the 'mechaniacs' to play their game, while the old-school players will have to rely on these mindgames to stay in the game; but they'll never reach the top.
|
This was an awesome article!
|
Finally! Someone acknowledges that Starcraft requires more brainpower than Guitar Hero.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Uhm...
I don't really think Stork should be in this. At least not on the *pro* side...
Fantasy was not broken by Storks game 1, it was a standard Proxy which is not uncommon on that map. The probes came in but by then it was over anyway and Fantasy knew this, everyone knew this. Had Stork pulled his Probes immediately with the first Zealot that would have been a statement, the way he did it, he was just speeding up his win a bit.
And saying that Stork won because of his mind hits me... Uhm... It was a 3-2 and Stork lost 2 games in a row... If anything Storks mind nearly crushed himself because he took 2 easy victories in the beginning. Fantasy was just no match for a Stork that was on his game (game 2 and 5 really show that, Game 1 showed just how nervous Fantasy was).
Best was truly crushed by July...
5 Pool is a whole different Story than a Proxgate... You don't see it that often... Best held it off (lost Pylon/Forge) but countered really bad (double proxgate.. wtf?) and probably was hit even harder by the ongoing game in which he who had survived that rush without much problems wasn't able to do anything about July gaining his economy and finally ending the game with pretty fast Mutalisks... That’s not how a Zerg after a ~half-failed rush should end up.
Game 2? It looked so normal, I'm sure best felt save and was very comfortable. And then? Well :bisuface:, out of nowhere he got beate, there was no sign for him to see that this was coming... The drones just came, drilled and he was beaten... Feeling comfortable to being beaten in 3 seconds. That hurt, it must hurt even more because best *knew* that his built was fine... But obviously not tested against dronedrills. Best just met the probably only Zerg that had the guts and would not hesitate to do such a thing after he saw the weakness in Bests built on that map.
In game 3 you saw the effect. July played it save with masses of Terrors. What did Best? He was to scared to even try a drop... This game was decided because Best never used his Reaver/Corsair... Whats the point of Reaver Corsair again? Ah, making you mobile and making you able to harass... His whole BO was fine but he just felt like he could not hurt July with it anyway (and he probably couldn't seeing the masses of Terrors July had, but he had to try it if he wanted to win... He was just to broken to take the risk).
As I see it... Fantasy vs Stork was more about Fantasy overcoming his own nerves and then later Stork overcoming his own nerves. July vs Best was about a nervous newcomer being mauled by a way more experienced player that completely messed him up. Flash vs Stork was just... Flash's BO/Macro > Stork's BO/Makro... 3 times (boring)...
|
You are giving too much credit to Julys aggression in game1 and 2. Sure it was a part of his win, but it's not like BeSt would have won if July didnt have the psychological adventage. July is a monster ZvP, and isnt going to lose unless hes put behind by some cheese, or 2gate push. Bisu and Kal are the only ones able to put up a fight in a straight up game. I've also never seen Bisu get as mauled by a zerg as he was when he played July last OSL on Chupung-Ryeong.
BeSt was thoroughly outplayed on Andromeda. BeSt is just terrible vs zerg, and I think he would have lost the game on Andromeda against any competent zergplayer. Losses against keke and Jy on protossmaps like Destination, and Katrina ? wtf ?
The reason he has troubles PvZ is because his control lacks, and it lacks because hes too busy babysitting his gateways and nexuses 24/7. Even Stork has better corsairplay, and that says alot. Reach never fixed his PvZ despite having Nal_rA on his team a long time, and that's the story with BeSt and Bisu as well. To make matters worse the SKT zergs are some of the worst zergs around. Bisu is surely practicing with other zergs when he can.
|
doesn't Nal_rA have the highest elo in PvZ?
|
@Guybrush
Yes, probably July would also have won vs Best in 2 more *normal* games.
But if you looked at best after the 2-0 he was already defeated. July, superior or not, made just a statement with his first 2 games. Best never saw a chance to win one of these games, he never had one and you saw that in game 3. Best took basically no risks, played sloppy with his corsairs and did not really move out until his army was close to the feared *Protoss-Blob-of-limitless-Zerg-dead*.
|
Very good article, I wonder are the article writers professional journalists of some sort here?
Anyways, these 2 sentences sum up the idea for me perfectly - "the assurance that The Emperor knows what he is doing, and that nothing, and no one can stop him. Very few players hit this plane in games these days, but when they do, time really does stand still."
And I know that feeling for myself... To be in complete control, to know exactly what and when to do regardless how good your opponent is doing. It's godlike 
And I'm not talking about StarCraft here, and not necessarily even a game...
|
On November 16 2008 21:59 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2008 06:26 simcar wrote:I cant remember that MJY had 90%,but until facing Bisu his ZvP was about 86%. 2 Zoler,i see u even dont understand what SC:BW is. + Show Spoiler +MB u are player D rank in iccup Just watch Savior's game againt anybody,in BO3 and in BO5 he never used 1 strat again. For example in GOMTV MSL S3 againts Free[gm] he didnt use same tacticks. Just watch it. And my advice for some users of teamliquid : + Show Spoiler + guys, before posting something ,at least learn how to play sc,pls gain at least B- in iccup and then post PLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,thank you I shouldnt drag this up but I gotta agree with all the people that defended me. Maybe you have a point but you gotta argue with real facts and not just flame. I dont have very much knowledge about Savior (I havent watched all his games) but for example the MSL final vs Bisu he did the exact same build order every game. And I'm not saying he did that in all of his games but in the most of his games he did his good old macro opening.
Yeah, most of them. However he was able to change his tactics up in a decisive and clever way sometimes such as this game against Flash where he masses zerglings after the 3-hatch instead of going straight to mutas in order to catch Flash out:
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=R1cduBIZr2Y
|
Very nicely written. Thanks for it, riptide!
|
great read...
awesome banner zxk3 =) keep it up
|
I don't agree.. you talk about mechanics as if its a trend which will disappear. i personally hope there will come some player with a even more creative style AND mechanical perfection. but i don't complain in my opinion there is already heaps of players both technical and creative as hell.
|
I don't agree.. you talk about mechanics as if its a trend which will disappear. i personally hope there will come some player with a even more creative style AND mechanical perfection. but i don't complain in my opinion there is already heaps of players both technical and creative as hell.
|
On November 15 2008 23:07 disciple wrote:
Great article, thou I must respectfully disagree with JD being pure mechanic monster. As much as I dont like him, he is imo the smartest zerg for now. His borrowing tactics vs sair/reaver, obs snipes are to prove my statement. Just watch JD vs Bisu on colosseum, the hydra traps for bisu's shuttles were amazing. JD knows how to adapt in most of the situations.
+1, and I must say, I didn`t expect you to say that . `grats!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
