Anime Discussion Thread - Page 6464

On July 16 2023 14:00 Kreuger wrote:



Could be the fighting/shounen is not your thing. In that case Its understandable.

What sorts of anime do you prefer?

On July 16 2023 23:13 Kreuger wrote:


Ah ok

Guess you have time this season to catch up on the ever growing backlog of shows;)

On July 17 2023 06:20 CosmicSpiral wrote:


Kakashi is nowhere close to being a Hashira within the context of Naruto. He's basically a skilled jonin with a card up his sleeve (the implanted Sharingan). That put him slightly above Zabuza during the 2nd arc. Even when he achieves Mangekyo Sharingan, he can't use more than a couple of times due to genetic incompatibility.

Of course, your argument fails because:

• The only reason Kakashi was even imprisoned by Water Prison Technique was because all of Team 8 froze up in the face of Zabuza's bloodlust and completely failed to protect Tazuna.
  
• After Naruto + Sasuke trick Zabuza into releasing his touch, Kakashi soundly beats Zabuza 1v1 twice. Haku had to pretend to assassinate his master to save him after the first battle.

No one else except Sasuke even attempted to fight Gaara: Gaara didn't succumb to the One-Tail's possession until after Temari and Kankuro retreated into the forest.

Naruto didn't defeat the One-Tails in a straightforward fight either. He had to summon Gamabunta to do all the heavy lifting (which he refused to do at first), and even then Naruto's main contribution was waking Gaara up from his hypnosis-induced sleep by headbutting him. Gamabunta even tells Naruto he can't beat the One-Tails head-on.



He killed all 3 of them and was ambushed by the fourth, who resurrected the other three. Plus he beats those 3 without knowing their abilities beforehand, and it was that knowledge which allows Naruto to take down five of them after Pein levels Konoha. It was also immense help that Deva Path was "on CD" during the majority of that fight.



Ishida had to use Letzt Stil and sacrifice all his powers to hyper-boost his base state. Mind you, Mayuri is the weakest of the Gotei 13 in actual combat. He has never canonically defeated a single opponent with pure power.

This is also a feat Ishida never surpasses throughout the rest of the series. No, Antithesis doesn't count.



Are we pretending that Byakuka didn't have Ichigo dead-to-rights during Senkei and he had to get his ass bailed out by the (unexpected!) inner hollow, which injured Byakuya enough for Ichigo to actually win the final clash.



Pretending that Ulquiorra didn't one-shot him during their first meeting in Hueco Mundo, he required the inner hollow transformation bit again to win after Ulquiorra uses Resurreccion (and he would've died if the hollow form didn't emerge), or that Ichigo was incapable of fighting Nnoitra and needed Nelliel and Kenpachi's help. And he didn't even bother to fight Starrk when Starrk showed up to take Orihime, as he knows he's completely outclassed.



Yes, let's chronologically list the considerable number of Ls Ichigo takes over the entire series.

• Gets one-shot by Byakuya during the latter's first appearance.
  
• Gets his Bankai stopped by one hand when he attacks Aizen.
  
• Gets stomped on by Yammy during the Arrancar's first incursion (although I don't count this since the conflict with his inner hollow prevented him from moving).
  
• Proves completely ineffectual versus Grimmjow during their first fight.
  
• He has his shit pushed in by Grimmjow in their second fight after his Hollow Mask crumbles.
  
• Gets one-shot by Ulquiorra during their second confrontation and almost dies.
  
• Almost dies to Ulquiorra during their third confrontation, only bailed out by a second hollow transformation outside of his control. Ichigo is not even conscious of what he's doing during that turnaround.
  
• Fails to kill Aizen using the final Getsuga Tensho (only degrading him to a lower state of being) and requires Urahara to exploit the window to bind Aizen. Note the latter plan was not known to Ichigo, hence he was betting everything on winning with that one attack.
  
• Captured by Quilge's The Jail despite having a considerable edge as a fighter, unable to break out of it.
  
• Couldn't do squat against Yhwach during their first encounter (hmmm, noticing a pattern here...)
  
• Haschwaith cuts Tensa Zangetsu in half in its Bankai state.
  
• Once again, Ichigo is unable to defeat or delay Yhwach in the Soul King's palace.
  
• He's utterly disabled by Askin Naak Le Vaar.
  
• Despite his new hybrid form, he loses to Yhwach again and has his Bankai broken again.
  
• Not a L per se, but Ichigo needed Aizen and Uryu's help to create an opening where he could successfully attack Yhwach in their final battle.
  

Now it would be remiss to not point out Ichigo's failures against Yhwach is no indictment in some theoretical comparison with the Gotei 13. They wouldn't be able to deal with Yhwach either. But Bleach is not a series about Ichigo outstripping the Gotei 13. They have a great number of accomplishments versus the other opponents Ichigo doesn't face.

On July 17 2023 08:16 CosmicSpiral wrote:


Even your rebuttal doesn't have a point as Ichigo never lost against fodder. Everyone he has ever lost or tied against was Captain-class, minimum.

No, the Gotei 13 beats superior opponents Ichigo doesn't face. Let's go through these examples:

Espada

• Shunsui beats Starrk 1v1 (number 1 Espada) without using his Bankai. Much better showing that anything Ichigo shows across the Arrancer, Hueco Mundo, or Fake Karakura Town arcs as Ichigo is forced to go all out against Grimmjow and Ulquiorra in both of his wins.
  
• Barragan (number 2) loses to Hachi teleporting his arm, affected by Barragan's Resurreccion, into the Espada's stomach.
  
• Yammy, who is the strongest Espada in raw force in his unrestrained form, is defeated by Kenpachi and Byakuya although they seemingly don't consider him very powerful.
  
• Kenpachi beats Nnoitra (number 5) without releasing his Zanpakuto. He literally cuts him in half with a basic kendo strike. That alone is far more impressive than Ichigo having to go into Bankai and uses his second Hollow transformation upgrade to barely win against number 4. That's perfectly in line with Kenpachi's lore as someone who has immense power and no technique.

Wanderreich

Due to the plotting of the story, Ichigo is separated from the regular fighting and mostly finds himself against Yhwach. If anything, TYBW is Ichigo's weakest showing relative to the other Gotei 13 as they get to face off against the top Sternritter. Ironically, his best feat in TYBW is tanking the attacks of 4 Sternritter (Meninas, Candice, Giselle, and Liltotto) without taking any damage.

• Ichigo doesn't defeat any of the Schutzstaffel, Yhwach's elite guard, and he never gets the opportunity. Shunsui + Nanao beat Lille. It takes Grimmjow, Yoruichi, and Urahara to outlast Askin. Gerard is stonewalled by several captains until Auswahlen steals away his power. If anything, Mayuri comes out of it as batting way above his weight class.
  
• Ishida goes largely toe-to-toe with Haschwalth until the end of their fight.
  
• Kenpachi beats 3 members of the Sternritter simultaneously, then beats Gremmy.
  
• Upgraded Rukia defeats As Nodt largely by herself, who is one of the strongest Sternritter outside the Schutzstaffel.
  

So on and so forth.

Now if we're going to hold 2v1s and 3v1s as not meaning much, then that disqualifies Ichigo's last fight against Yhwach too. Ichigo only wins because of some, frankly nonsensical, intervention from Ishida and Aizen impaling himself on Yhwach's arm.



Kakashi is not Hashira-level (that implies he is top 15 in his universe, given that good and bad ninjas are not fundamentally different unlike humans and demons) and he was never the strongest jonin in Konoha at any point in his career. He wasn't the best ninja in Konoha when Tsunade was forced to step down: Naruto had already surpassed him. Hell, at the end of the Fourth World War he was still outclassed by Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura as well as other jonin from their generation.

But they couldn't make a teenager the leader of the village, could they?

On July 31 2023 03:04 Kreuger wrote:



Didnt know there where shorts out, have to check, watching Horimiya: Piece and its great