Perched atop the entrance to the Narrow Maze sit the looming shapes of sneering gargoyles, the paths into the hereafter forever in their gaze. Beasts and birds, men and monsters, all creatures that die and choose to travel beyond must someday pass beneath their sight. For an untethered spirit, the decision to journey through the veil of death is irrevocable. When chance comes, and by craft or cunning some restless soul escapes their hells and heavens, it is the dreaded gargoyle Visage, the bound form of the eternal spirit Necro'lic, who is dispatched to reclaim them. Ruthless and efficient, unhindered by the principles of death and fatigue, Visage stalks its prey without mercy or end, willingly destroying all which may give shelter to the fugitive essence. That which flaunts the laws of the afterlife may never rest, for while it is true that the dead may be revived, it is only a matter of time before Visage finds and returns them to their proper place.
Hey guys, Visage is one of my main support heroes. Love him because of his amazing burst early/mid game, push power, tanky support, etc He is hard to master however...
My items: Boots upgraded into tranqs later, mek if no one builds it or if I have to get medaillon first, medaillon in all my games, then straight aghs. Skill build, soul assumption first, then grave chill of cloak depending of the state of the game.
Lots of items work well on Visage, never had the occasion to use them. AC great on him? Never tested. Shivas a good pickup for Visage? Same.
I used this video to learn visage last year before he became all the rage at TI3 Eastern quals. He's still one of my favorite heroes despite all the nerfs to his early game survivability. Some of the information is outdated but the basics of Visage play still remains the same.
Visage is one those heroes where its CRITICAL to not spend your first skill point until you absolutely know what you need. In defensive lanes, going Grave Chill first is usually a safe bet. If you anticipate a lot of early actions (eg. tri vs tri) then Soul Assumption first is usually better. Just leave the skill pt unspent and skill when the action breaks out. I repeat, DO NOT spend your first skill point until you need it. You WILL miss out on first bloods because of skilling your 1st pt incorrectly.
I find medallion is only a good investment if you plan on ganking a lot, you get a fast lvl6, or your team can use it to get an early Rosh. Saving up to build Mek is a much more stable item choice; its not always the best first item to get but c'mon, you can never go wrong with Mek. In the case that you have a dedicated Mek builder that is also a farming core, you can then grab the medallion or proceed to your next item from below. If you do go for a ganking medallion Visage, the movespeed and regen from Tranqs is pretty good. Otherwise, Treads all the way unless your team desperately needs some Arc boots.
Your next item should be one of the following (by priority): Aghs, Forcestaff, Pipe. Aghs is just an overall great item for supports that have this upgrade. Easy to build up, makes you a bit tankier, and gives huge boost to your Familiars, just insane cost-effectiveness. Forcestaff is another super cost-effective item with unlimited applications for a support. Pipe, self-explanatory. Late game items are always situational. Its usually just a case of what your team is lacking that you can afford to build. When in doubt, just build a Hex if it gets to that point.
Visage is one of the easier micro heroes to master as you can do it with just 2 control groups. I like to use 1 for Visage + birds, 2 for just birds, (F1 is always hero so doesnt count). When you are not fighting, my time is usually spent 50-50 split between birds and main hero. If like to keep the birds over the tree line so you can get a little scouting but still have time to pull them out of enemy hero range. Your opponent should not see your familiars coming unless you are using them to zone.
I might post more in-depth Familiar control strategies later involving fighting, scouting, split pushing, managing CDs etc...
As with all heroes that have unique mechanics or require micro, I recommend practicing with bots a bit just to become Familiar with the hero :D
Main items you want are Boots medallion Agha. In between, you may want to add mek arcane tranquil wand etc. Other than that, standard support caster items like force ghost eul atos hex. Luxuries are ac Shiva hex.
Just keep spamming assumptions. And don't skill anything at 1. You never know whether you need chill or assumption.
I have an extremely hard time playing this hero, micro-aside it is a support I struggle to understand itemisation on or rather knowledge/SKILL to gain gold with. I know the basic outline is boots, courage medalion into Aghs but there's of course useful items inbetween but I don't know how to find the money for these.
Maybe it's a mix between me and a pub environment, but I wish I was a lot better with Visage before I get Aghs.
1/4/4 for skills. Core is tranquil/mek if you can't micro and tranquil/aghs if you can.
Tranquils because you don't need the mana from arcanes and the +4 armor is crucial since you start with 0. Also armor stacking is super op on Visage. Regen is useful for farming jungle, put it down on the ground before you attack so it doesn't go on cd.
Don't go Aghs if you're behind in lvls as you need lvl11 and 16 at a relatively normal pace to have the 3rd bird be useful. Otherwise Aghs combined with Soul Assumption means you will be out dpsing carries. The +HP is also vital in letting you last longer in fights for more Soul Assumption.
If you can't micro 3 birds go Mek. Once again armor stacking is op on Visage. Still don't need Arcanes even with Mek.
Medallion can be nice but you need it early to make any impact. You usually don't have a fast 1k if you're playing as a support. It is very good for farming jungle/ancients with birds though. I don't consider it core and it's not worth delaying your Aghs for.
Play style: Visage is a DPSer! Don't pick him to land 3 man stuns or whatever. Your #1 job is to nuke every 4 secs and #2 is making sure your birds do full 7 stack damage. In fact if you're not confident with micro take your birds and just right click a hero.
Please don't play him as a hard support. Visage needs early lvl 6 and 11 or you will make no impact at all.
Visage is very much a early/mid game hero. You want to snow ball and end the game as Visage falls off quite hard late with no real stuns.
Skills: Grave Chill: Always cast on the carry. Use it to reposition yourself in fights. You can also cast it on creeps for escapes/chases.
Soul Assumption: Make sure to only cast with a full charge. Otherwise pretty simple spell to use because of its 900 range and low cast point.
Gravekeeper's Cloak: This use to make him superman before his magic resist got nerfed to 10%. Now a hero like Zeus can wreck Visage pretty bad. Exploit this skill by stacking +armor items. Also keep in mind you start off with 0 armor before you get this skill.
Birds: Each bird does 294/462/686 damage with 0.4 BAT. Insane dps and you can even kill low hp supports only with birds. Stunning resets your damage stacks back to 7. Make sure you always have 7.
Birds combined with Cloak lets you farm jungle/ancients because cloak charge is only removed from hero attacks.
Magic immune. Last time I played you could remove nightmare with birds and they will keep moving. Not sure if still true.
If you're close to Aghs make sure to save resummon as you won't get a 3rd bird automatically. Bird damage will automatically update without resummoning if you go from lvl1 to lvl2 birds.
Resummon in fights after you damage or stun for even more damage. This is the combo that makes you feel like a pro.
Bird Counters: Bristleback - Quills do physical damage so you need to stun right as the fight starts or you will feed the birds every time. Don't pick Visage against him. DK - Physical damage aoe. Gyro - Flak cannon Axe - Not as bad as Bristleback because you can avoid him or stun before birds they die. Late game ranged carrys like SF or Drow will 1 shot birds.
Will add other stuff as I remember them. edit: various updates
Birds are now magic immune meaning that you no longer have to worry about Bane/OD/Ench/Silencer 1 shotting them. However something to def watch for is Gyro and Ember Spirit. Ember with a BF will cleave off your birds and can kill them very quickly even with little else around. Gryo's Flak Cannon also will affect the birds, making it difficult to keep them alive in a teamfight against him.
The choice of whether to get arcanes or not depends on the team. That being said if you're not getting them and don't start with a RoP I'd just stay with brown boots. The MS isn't a big deal to you since you're a back line nuker that also has a MS buff/slow, and with a point into Cloak you end up being extremely survivable.
Urn is really good on him due to the fact that you should be looking to get kills with the hero. His ability to gank is very underrated and with a good stun and some other burst heroes he can secure a kill on almost any hero in the early game.
I always get a basi ring on this guy, gives enough regen in the early game and the damage and armor help too. Lately I've been losing a lot with visage and I think it's because I got too wrapped up in landing bird stuns. In fights I was microing the birds the whole time and not casting soul assumption or maneuvering my hero. The bird stuns are icing on the cake I've come to realize, the core of his effectiveness is his nuke.
On June 07 2014 05:21 Dankleteer wrote: I always get a basi ring on this guy, gives enough regen in the early game and the damage and armor help too. Lately I've been losing a lot with visage and I think it's because I got too wrapped up in landing bird stuns. In fights I was microing the birds the whole time and not casting soul assumption or maneuvering my hero. The bird stuns are icing on the cake I've come to realize, the core of his effectiveness is his nuke.
don't forget to let your birds auto if they're not being targeted (they shouldnt be target priorities in ~even fights), the autos of bonus damage are worth way more than the stuns too, stunning is something you do when w and bird bonus dmg are both on cd (or for clutch saves and tp interrupts etc)
You should use stuns to stop people that are running away. In teamfights, I always stun first for some reasons, it is a mistake indeed. But sometimes there are situations where you have to. A bane who has fiend's grip for example, an opportunity to stun everyone, for example...
The utility of Familiars for scouting around the map, split pushing towers and immediately resummoning them in case is something I find an important mechanic with Visage. Items I prefer going Force Staff, Eul's (adding the disable and additional movement speed is nice), Mek, Pipe and if I have the luxury, Shiva's. RoB is an underrated item on Visage I think, it adds some good mana regen which is nice because Visage's spells early game are fairly mana intensive. Aghs is definitely important because three Familiars adds a lot of DPS, scouting, split pushing and more stuns and should be bought ASAP.
On June 07 2014 06:59 PhoenixVoid wrote: The utility of Familiars for scouting around the map, split pushing towers and immediately resummoning them in case is something I find an important mechanic with Visage.
This can be useful. But in fights I love to be able to resummon them. Sometimes it is even better to play with 2 birds after getting aghs for some time, if u suspect a teamfight soon. full load -> stun -> full load -> resummon is quite a lot of dmg extra. Obviously the fight has to take that long. It can also be very useful to have the stuns at the chasing part after the fight, either for chasing or running away.
Birds are now magic immune meaning that you no longer have to worry about Bane/OD/Ench/Silencer 1 shotting them. However something to def watch for is Gyro and Ember Spirit. Ember with a BF will cleave off your birds and can kill them very quickly even with little else around. Gryo's Flak Cannon also will affect the birds, making it difficult to keep them alive in a teamfight against him.
The choice of whether to get arcanes or not depends on the team. That being said if you're not getting them and don't start with a RoP I'd just stay with brown boots. The MS isn't a big deal to you since you're a back line nuker that also has a MS buff/slow, and with a point into Cloak you end up being extremely survivable.
Urn is really good on him due to the fact that you should be looking to get kills with the hero. His ability to gank is very underrated and with a good stun and some other burst heroes he can secure a kill on almost any hero in the early game.
Oh wow I didn't know they changed that. Guess that happens when you're too busy to dota. Flak cannon didn't target birds before 6.80 not sure if that changed as well.
Brown boots works but Tranquils are too good to pass up. I don't really like Arcanes on int heroes at all, team or not.
I agree on the ganking. Visage can kill heroes before they even have a chance to escape. Hiding the birds in the trees and doing a sandwich also works really well for ganks.
On June 07 2014 06:59 PhoenixVoid wrote: The utility of Familiars for scouting around the map, split pushing towers and immediately resummoning them in case is something I find an important mechanic with Visage.
This can be useful. But in fights I love to be able to resummon them. Sometimes it is even better to play with 2 birds after getting aghs for some time, if u suspect a teamfight soon. full load -> stun -> full load -> resummon is quite a lot of dmg extra. Obviously the fight has to take that long. It can also be very useful to have the stuns at the chasing part after the fight, either for chasing or running away.
Yea I've never really liked splitting the birds away from the hero that much either. Scouting with them is just a bad idea because they have no sight radius and there's a good chance they will die. I know Aui likes to split push with them but only late game when the resummon cd is lower. Lvl1 and 2 birds aren't worth risking to split push with I think.
On June 07 2014 06:59 PhoenixVoid wrote: The utility of Familiars for scouting around the map, split pushing towers and immediately resummoning them in case is something I find an important mechanic with Visage.
This can be useful. But in fights I love to be able to resummon them. Sometimes it is even better to play with 2 birds after getting aghs for some time, if u suspect a teamfight soon. full load -> stun -> full load -> resummon is quite a lot of dmg extra. Obviously the fight has to take that long. It can also be very useful to have the stuns at the chasing part after the fight, either for chasing or running away.
Yea I've never really liked splitting the birds away from the hero that much either. Scouting with them is just a bad idea because they have no sight radius and there's a good chance they will die. I know Aui likes to split push with them but only late game when the resummon cd is lower. Lvl1 and 2 birds aren't worth risking to split push with I think.
The puny vision range on Familiars is adequate to provide limited scouting that will still be valuable. You can't expect to use them like wards or Beastmaster hawk but they are excellent for scouting ahead of a push or to zone out chokes. It's pretty useful for scouting out sneaky blink initiators hiding in the trees (unless they are smoked, which is extremely rare).
I don't buy that "what if my birds die" bullshit. Even lvl1 birds won't die unless you have bad control or your are extremely underleveled (by which time the enemy right clicks are hurting). Throughout the game at least 50% of your attention should be spent on Familiars and most of it when scouting. Losing birds during scouting is due to user carelessness the majority of the time.
Remember, most of the time, you can just fly your Familiars over trees/cliffs before they die. There is no reason why anyone should ever be afraid to use birds for scouting.
Split pushing with any lvl Familiars is fine as long as you have a resummon cd ready in case a fight breaks out.
On June 07 2014 06:59 PhoenixVoid wrote: The utility of Familiars for scouting around the map, split pushing towers and immediately resummoning them in case is something I find an important mechanic with Visage.
This can be useful. But in fights I love to be able to resummon them. Sometimes it is even better to play with 2 birds after getting aghs for some time, if u suspect a teamfight soon. full load -> stun -> full load -> resummon is quite a lot of dmg extra. Obviously the fight has to take that long. It can also be very useful to have the stuns at the chasing part after the fight, either for chasing or running away.
Yea I've never really liked splitting the birds away from the hero that much either. Scouting with them is just a bad idea because they have no sight radius and there's a good chance they will die. I know Aui likes to split push with them but only late game when the resummon cd is lower. Lvl1 and 2 birds aren't worth risking to split push with I think.
The puny vision range on Familiars is adequate to provide limited scouting that will still be valuable. You can't expect to use them like wards or Beastmaster hawk but they are excellent for scouting ahead of a push or to zone out chokes. It's pretty useful for scouting out sneaky blink initiators hiding in the trees (unless they are smoked, which is extremely rare).
I don't buy that "what if my birds die" bullshit. Even lvl1 birds won't die unless you have bad control or your are extremely underleveled (by which time the enemy right clicks are hurting). Throughout the game at least 50% of your attention should be spent on Familiars and most of it when scouting. Losing birds during scouting is due to user carelessness the majority of the time.
Remember, most of the time, you can just fly your Familiars over trees/cliffs before they die. There is no reason why anyone should ever be afraid to use birds for scouting.
Split pushing with any lvl Familiars is fine as long as you have a resummon cd ready in case a fight breaks out.
I mean if I'm pushing T1 Radiant bot tower I'll use birds to scout out the trees behind the tower but I wouldn't be scouting all over the map with them like I would with treants or Lycan wolves.
But in general I like having the birds close and in position which is crucial to getting your full combo off. I don't like putting them in unnecessary danger either because you'll have to heal them putting stun on cd before the fight starts.
Having to always put resummon on cd just so you can split push a little is not worth it to me. Also like the other guy said the damage/stun -> resummon -> damage/stun combo is too strong to pass up. Plus I make more money farming jungle.
When to split push and when to keep your double summon is always situational. It has less to do with Visage-centric strategy than general Dota strategy. It's about anticipating whats going to happen and getting the most out of the given situation.
For example, keeping a creepwave from killing your tower when your team is 5 manning another lane is 100% worth it to not have a double familiar summon. The double summon is super strong yes but if your team actually needs this for enough dmg to win fights, your team is probably losing pretty hard.
On June 07 2014 03:56 yyfpulls wrote: Bird Counters: Bristleback - Quills do physical damage so you need to stun right as the fight starts or you will feed the birds every time. Don't pick Visage against him. DK - Physical damage aoe. Axe - Not as bad as Bristleback because you can avoid him or stun before birds die. Late game ranged carrys like SF or Drow will 1 shot birds.
Gyrocopter's flak cannon also affects birds, which is plain awful.
Resummoning familiars in fights is worth it if you have some channeling heroes you couldn't stun with the initial two familiers that are far back of the fight (Bane, Rhasta...) In fact that should be the only time you may do that, and you won't do that too much as well, you're not picking visage if you're here to be the only stunner in the team.
As a 600+ game visage player, I'd say that more often than not I resummon in fights, either because of me tp:ing and fams not coming in time, them dying to collaterals like flak cannon/embre or as extra burst/stuns. Since the most annoying one-shoters like OD and Ench got removed and drow and sniper sees very little play you should seldom (that is never) lose fams while scouting etc if you just keep pretty close to tree-lines. The resummon in fights are very much not inconsequential. Familiars are extremly strong when dealing with bkb-carrys as if you use the resummon for burst they are not sfae even in bkb, and the stuns are very disruptive so having 2-3 extra stuns is very, very good.
For the other part about splitpushing etc; sure there are definitely times where splitpush is better than having your fams close. They are however few and far between since even a support visage is a teamfight monster so unless losing badly you will want to teamfight through the mid-game if you have a visage on your team. If I "split push" with them early it is mostly for some chip damage at towers but that is more if there really is no action to be had on the map at all.
dropping familiar and immediately resummoning to burst targets into another set of stuns can turn fights especially if you are 16 and have aghs. those familiars do insane amount of damage.
On June 06 2014 22:43 Surprise.820 wrote: I have an extremely hard time playing this hero, micro-aside it is a support I struggle to understand itemisation on or rather knowledge/SKILL to gain gold with. I know the basic outline is boots, courage medalion into Aghs but there's of course useful items inbetween but I don't know how to find the money for these.
Maybe it's a mix between me and a pub environment, but I wish I was a lot better with Visage before I get Aghs.
Try force staff. It is a good support item in general. And an item that should be in a team. To help people and yourself.
if you have problems microing the birds, you can opt to skip aghs.
visage mops up early team fights and soul assumption is beast mode, so you generally end up pretty rich as far as supports go. medallion/mek works well on him, or force, or pipe. he's also pretty legit at picking up an early gem, because of all the bonus armor, and his strength in 5-man fights.
generally as visage you farm exclusively through stacks/pulls and team fights. With birds you can split push somewhat effectively as well, but that takes more practice.
When watching the Alliance - Navi game in d2cl I kept wondering why nobody picks up Visage any longer. Seems like such an ultra powerful hero. Does anybody have an idea? Shouldn't this hero either get picked or banned every game?
On September 02 2014 03:49 wims80 wrote: When watching the Alliance - Navi game in d2cl I kept wondering why nobody picks up Visage any longer. Seems like such an ultra powerful hero. Does anybody have an idea? Shouldn't this hero either get picked or banned every game?
Incredibly squishy now pre Gravekeeper's Cloak. 0 armor and only 10% magic resist really hurt him bad. He's no longer a solid hero who can be in the middle of the fight, but has to be on the outside as a glass cannon to do work.
Also he's a pretty greedy support anymore. Since the changes came about he's been used more and more as a farmer rather than your typical hard support. Additionally he doesn't have any hard disables that are reliable, and against heroes like Razor, DP they melt him while he can't burst them down efficiently enough.
Yea the 10% MR nerf hit him really really hard. His laning phase is terrible now. A lot of times I end up feeding early game because Visage is so slow and squishy now. I don't think you can go 1-2-0 anymore, you have to 1-1-1, and cloak at lvl2 is a good idea at times.
Hes also terrible against the the push meta and heroes like Razor and DP wreck him like Leloup just said. Getting lvl6 is a huge liability now, I don't even like picking him in pubs anymore. Hes also quite weak to Void and Tinker who are in almost pub every game. You get rolled over before you hit lvl6 and lvl11, it's not as easy to snowball anymore.
His birds probably die too easily to the popular heroes now, and he can't anti push well. Its just trends. Hero is still powerful, but the way teams are drafting, its not wise to pick him.
Alright, I fucking love this guy. He is a great hero to simply turn ganks around and get double kills and often wrecks in pubs. However my question is should I go Aghs or AC first.
Aghs is an amazing additional amount of damage and a third stun, and costs less than AC. Aghs is amazing on visage, get it right after medaillon (and mek).
Pick this hero only if the enemy team doesn't have a pushing lineup, else you'll do nothing
On September 03 2014 07:13 Mecha King Ghidorah wrote: Alright, I fucking love this guy. He is a great hero to simply turn ganks around and get double kills and often wrecks in pubs. However my question is should I go Aghs or AC first.
Ags every time. Most useful item for him completely as it takes his damage and makes it 1.5x what it was without the ags. The burst from 3 level 3 familiars kills almost every support in seconds.
Also this hero works best in pushing lineups. The amount of damage Familiars do to towers should never be understated. Granted he can't farm well, so you have to find ways to get your gold/levels (a second aggressive support, or a free lane when your carry/mid can go jungle).
What do you think of Phase on visage? A friend who plays visage a lot does this all the time and likes it. I'm not a fan, yes you have better right clicks and phase speed but you lose tankyness from tranq or treads which helps visage early on. And spamming soul assumption means phase effect gets disabled earlier.
you rarely rely on hero autoattacks as visage. Most of ur dmg is bird autos, bird stuns, and soul assumptions (after early game). Because birds are global and soul assumption is 900 range, the only reason for you to get into autoattack range (600) is if you need to be casting grave chill. Sure its worth casting if you can, but often its better to just stay wayyyy back and provide damage. Even if u run in and chill, you usually use that ms to run the fuck away back to a reasonable range, and if ur on the chase, then chill MS is enough and u don't need phase.
Usually you just save the 900 gold and put it into a medallion for ur birds or an urn or w/e. Tranqs are acceptable too but even they aren't too necessary.
basically the value isn't there from putting all that gold into boots when it could be medallion/urn/a piece of ur aghs/etc. Visage is absolutely fine with just brown boots for however long u want.
Phase aren't bad if you choose to autoattack with ur hero in fights. You can murder a target EVEN FASTER if u abuse grave chill and ur hero autos in fights, but then you often die since it puts you too close to the enemy. Situationally of course. Basically, its reasonable in an unreliable playstyle thats probably fine at whatever level your friend plays. Yes it lets u achieve solo pickoffs slightly better, but lets be real thats nto visage's job lol.
All this would be different if you were like mid visage trying to dictate the tempo of the game instead of support visage trying to do what you can in fights and scrape together farm for an aghs etc. If u had fast 6 and lots of farm, then yeah sure phase are pretty baller imo to get close enough to chill a support and crush him with ur birdies and general level advantage. Visage definitely crushes many mid heroes btw (the ones that rely on autos ) and can do a lot with a fast 6 if ur a player.
Is there ever a scenario where you have a jungler and pick Visage as a solo lane support? Whenever I try this it always seems to flop throughout the whole game. I never really get ags, I don't feel very good as a lane support alone as Visage, and I just end up not being all that relevant.
On November 25 2014 14:36 TBone- wrote: Is there ever a scenario where you have a jungler and pick Visage as a solo lane support? Whenever I try this it always seems to flop throughout the whole game. I never really get ags, I don't feel very good as a lane support alone as Visage, and I just end up not being all that relevant.
I find that visage is better with level than stuff, solo supporting mean also more xp. But if you know you will solo support there is better one than visage. Execpt if you have a sick dual combo with visage
Random theorycraft possibly bad idea on Visage. Orchid could be situationally good, maybe if you need more lockdown against say an AM, Puck or other slippery ability based hero, additionally going quite well with your bursty familiar damage and Int attribute adding DPS. Thoughts?
Separate to above Razor is a strong counter to Visage, your birds are usually the lowest health units nearby and Eye of the Storm just tears them up with only a few strikes.
Orchid is reasonable for solo lane Visage if you ever get to play it. It's a completely impractical use of 4k gold on a support Visage though, because you'd never finish it at a point when it's useful.
On November 25 2014 14:36 TBone- wrote: Is there ever a scenario where you have a jungler and pick Visage as a solo lane support? Whenever I try this it always seems to flop throughout the whole game. I never really get ags, I don't feel very good as a lane support alone as Visage, and I just end up not being all that relevant.
Only in conjunction with a hero that dishes out high burst damage already. I often have difficulties getting a max damage soul assumption in dual lanes and that's a big part of visage's early game usefulness. For example a clinkz or viper lane could work with visage, but both are usually better off without him unless visage makes the difference between them dying or not.
Actually birds are quite vulnerable against everything that buys a blink dagger, heroes like pa and blink prophet destroy them. So I agree that scouting with them isnt always great.
That being said familiars are really good for checking rosh.
Also: Opinions on 1:2:2:1 vs 1:3:1:1? I have seen 1:2:2:1 multiple times now and it gives you a lot more sustain, which is nice for a second or third soul assumption and for early skirmishes. But theoretically you want to do damage frontloaded, so I can see the point of 1:3:1:1 too.
Realistically it's likely to be an off-beat game if ur visage has aghs/ac and is looking to pick up more luxury items. Hex, necrobook, refresher, all aren't terrible options. Shiva's could work although you likely don't need armor after AC and the rest is preeeetty expensive for the benefit it gives you. E-blade or force staff to help ur team might be valuable, or they might not (depending on the game). You can't really answer those questions without being in the exact game imo.
On November 25 2014 14:40 Jinxed wrote: No. A visage with no farm is useless. Before the nerf to his base armor and magic resist you could, but anymore you can't get away with it.
just as a side-note, this kind of usage of "anymore" is nonstandard and limited to certain regions; most english speakers will find it strange
On November 25 2014 14:40 Jinxed wrote: No. A visage with no farm is useless. Before the nerf to his base armor and magic resist you could, but anymore you can't get away with it.
just as a side-note, this kind of usage of "anymore" is nonstandard and limited to certain regions; most english speakers will find it strange
just as a side-note, pointing out people's dialect variations and telling them that they're "nonstandard" isn't really very helpful; most people will find it irritating and elitist
On November 25 2014 14:40 Jinxed wrote: No. A visage with no farm is useless. Before the nerf to his base armor and magic resist you could, but anymore you can't get away with it.
just as a side-note, this kind of usage of "anymore" is nonstandard and limited to certain regions; most english speakers will find it strange
just as a side-note, pointing out people's dialect variations and telling them that they're "nonstandard" isn't really very helpful; most people will find it irritating and elitist
I was thinking today, you could have the longest stun in the game if you play it right. Items needed; Agh's, Refresher's. (Good Luck getting that farm)
Summon Familiars, wait 140 Seconds. Stun with each familiar (1.5 * 3 = 4.5 Seconds) Re-Summon Stun With Each (4.5 Seconds) Refresh, Re-Summon Stun with Each (4.5)
This results in a 13.5 second stun when maximized. More than likely you will get a 10 second stun. However you could also get the other outcome, which is a lose for your team because their Support is a Core.
On March 07 2015 10:52 Rodrak wrote: I was thinking today, you could have the longest stun in the game if you play it right. Items needed; Agh's, Refresher's. (Good Luck getting that farm)
Summon Familiars, wait 140 Seconds. Stun with each familiar (1.5 * 3 = 4.5 Seconds) Re-Summon Stun With Each (4.5 Seconds) Refresh, Re-Summon Stun with Each (4.5)
This results in a 13.5 second stun when maximized. More than likely you will get a 10 second stun. However you could also get the other outcome, which is a lose for your team because their Support is a Core.
Just a thought. : /
Playing visage around the stun is one of the worst approaches to play.
what do i do when my birdies lose their autoattack buff? just hold off on using them? or still let them shoot at things? probably a dumb question but im really never sure
On November 25 2014 14:40 Jinxed wrote: No. A visage with no farm is useless. Before the nerf to his base armor and magic resist you could, but anymore you can't get away with it.
just as a side-note, this kind of usage of "anymore" is nonstandard and limited to certain regions; most english speakers will find it strange
just as a side-note, pointing out people's dialect variations and telling them that they're "nonstandard" isn't really very helpful; most people will find it irritating and elitist
Well, I learned something. I just thought he made a spelling mistake, didn't even know "positive anymore was a thing." Now I do.
On April 03 2015 21:45 DazzleEnthusiast wrote: what do i do when my birdies lose their autoattack buff? just hold off on using them? or still let them shoot at things? probably a dumb question but im really never sure
use the stun most of the time .. get the autoattack buff up again if the birdies aren't doing anything
Well depends, haven't played him much since patch but currently he is banned or picked in almost every first phase in tournaments. His buildup definitely depends on your and enemy hero lineup. Familiar buffs means that they will hardly die to creeps and towers anymore and spells won't be killing them anymore and that was real pain in the ass.
On May 04 2015 08:01 yyfpulls wrote: Visage items when I want bird immortals damn it
I heard from a friend they do have the Familiars assets in the Immortals of TI5 but don't take this as an absolute.
On May 04 2015 08:30 Mecha King Ghidorah wrote: So freaking glad the familiar change went through as playing Visage vs Axe fucking sucked ass. Learned teh hard way that spin killed birdies.
I once had a game as a Visage against Bristle and Axe. Was no bueno when my Familiars couldn't get off damage because they got bursted to death every three seconds.
The new items definitely do help Visage though especially because they transition very well from items he typically acquires like Medallion or Mek into Solar Crest and Guardian Greaves. Even Deso might not be a bad pick because it got cheaper if you feel really ahead. My only concern with Guardian Greaves is how it needs Arcane Boots but Tranquils tend to be better on him. Mango is great on him too because of how mana intensive his spells get early game. Having the mana for a second Soul Assumption instead of one is huge.
birds still murder backline supports and there's no way to kill them before the damage is done nor any way to cc them so if you're a lion you just facemash all your skills and hope you've contributed.
basically if you're not at least like 1.5-2k health birds kill you for free. at least sing makes it look that way
He could potentially be a mid core now in my eyes. The familiars being instakilled by late game carries was quite a problem before, but it could work now, especially with the solar crest giving him a blind to make the familiars even harder to kill. Also, due to his familiars not being healed and not getting the armor buff (at least I assume that's true) from Mekansm, he doesn't really fill the support role as well.
Why visage is not more popular with so many drows around? I've just had a game with a drow who actually used her aura at the strart of the fights or even squirmish with birds involved and it was a massacre.
On September 23 2016 06:19 nojok wrote: Why visage is not more popular with so many drows around? I've just had a game with a drow who actually used her aura at the strart of the fights or even squirmish with birds involved and it was a massacre.
This hero quietly has one of the highest 5k+ winrates. Probably because of drow.
On September 23 2016 06:19 nojok wrote: Why visage is not more popular with so many drows around? I've just had a game with a drow who actually used her aura at the strart of the fights or even squirmish with birds involved and it was a massacre.
Probably because with drow and usually another ranged core you don't really need more physical damage and a defensive sup like dazzle/oracle/sd is more desirable. Last time I saw a typical drow visage lineup in a pro match the other team just focused Drow down. Visage is kind of a liability. He needs farm but lacks the aoe spell to clear stacks, he doesn't really lanesup well and he doesn't really gank well either. If the other side chooses to contest drows lane games get hard very fast.
On September 23 2016 06:19 nojok wrote: Why visage is not more popular with so many drows around? I've just had a game with a drow who actually used her aura at the strart of the fights or even squirmish with birds involved and it was a massacre.
Probably because with drow and usually another ranged core you don't really need more physical damage and a defensive sup like dazzle/oracle/sd is more desirable. Last time I saw a typical drow visage lineup in a pro match the other team just focused Drow down. Visage is kind of a liability. He needs farm but lacks the aoe spell to clear stacks, he doesn't really lanesup well and he doesn't really gank well either. If the other side chooses to contest drows lane games get hard very fast.
Visage has a 53% win rate in 5k+. The hero is not a liability. Bad players are liabilities. That's second to Omni basically
Visage is underpicked for the same reason Chen, IO, Meepo and the like are underpicked. The more micro and the more team coordination required to play the hero, the less likely it is to be played. Pickrate isn't really indicative of the hero's strength.
On September 23 2016 06:19 nojok wrote: Why visage is not more popular with so many drows around? I've just had a game with a drow who actually used her aura at the strart of the fights or even squirmish with birds involved and it was a massacre.
Probably because with drow and usually another ranged core you don't really need more physical damage and a defensive sup like dazzle/oracle/sd is more desirable. Last time I saw a typical drow visage lineup in a pro match the other team just focused Drow down. Visage is kind of a liability. He needs farm but lacks the aoe spell to clear stacks, he doesn't really lanesup well and he doesn't really gank well either. If the other side chooses to contest drows lane games get hard very fast.
Visage has a 53% win rate in 5k+. The hero is not a liability. Bad players are liabilities. That's second to Omni basically
Visage's 52.87% wr in 5k+ put him at the 16th place this month, Omni has 61.18%wr. Not really second in any way.
Hell Drow is 5th right now and with the extremely low popularity of visage there's a good chance most of the visage games are Drow games. Meaning visage would pull Drow down instead of increasing her winrate.
Thanks @HollywoodHolocaust, didn't knew that site. So drow+visage is still far superior than either with random teammates. Drow is still superior with defensive sups like omni (who boosts a stellar winrate anyways), dazzle and abba (who is played as an offlane core in NA atm I think?) though.
On September 23 2016 06:19 nojok wrote: Why visage is not more popular with so many drows around? I've just had a game with a drow who actually used her aura at the strart of the fights or even squirmish with birds involved and it was a massacre.
Probably because with drow and usually another ranged core you don't really need more physical damage and a defensive sup like dazzle/oracle/sd is more desirable. Last time I saw a typical drow visage lineup in a pro match the other team just focused Drow down. Visage is kind of a liability. He needs farm but lacks the aoe spell to clear stacks, he doesn't really lanesup well and he doesn't really gank well either. If the other side chooses to contest drows lane games get hard very fast.
Visage has a 53% win rate in 5k+. The hero is not a liability. Bad players are liabilities. That's second to Omni basically
Visage's 52.87% wr in 5k+ put him at the 16th place this month, Omni has 61.18%wr. Not really second in any way.
Hell Drow is 5th right now and with the extremely low popularity of visage there's a good chance most of the visage games are Drow games. Meaning visage would pull Drow down instead of increasing her winrate.
i meant for supports. omni/treant are the highest, then visage, cm, bh, ET all in a group around 52-54%
On September 27 2016 00:44 Archeon wrote: Thanks @HollywoodHolocaust, didn't knew that site. So drow+visage is still far superior than either with random teammates. Drow is still superior with defensive sups like omni (who boosts a stellar winrate anyways), dazzle and abba (who is played as an offlane core in NA atm I think?) though.
You're comparing defensive supports to the full offensive visage, visage opens a lot of room for some utility heroes on both offlane and mid whil providing enough damage for the team.
On September 27 2016 00:44 Archeon wrote: Thanks @HollywoodHolocaust, didn't knew that site. So drow+visage is still far superior than either with random teammates. Drow is still superior with defensive sups like omni (who boosts a stellar winrate anyways), dazzle and abba (who is played as an offlane core in NA atm I think?) though.
You're comparing defensive supports to the full offensive visage, visage opens a lot of room for some utility heroes on both offlane and mid whil providing enough damage for the team.
Yeah my initial statement was that picking a ranged core along with drow and a defensive support is generally preferable to picking drow+visage and move utility to your cores. I was trying to find explanations why drow's pickrate didn't amplify visage's pr in 5k.
Hence I quoted defensive supports that have a better wr than visage alongside drow. I have to add though that Oracle doesn't seem to do better with than without drow to my surprise.
Drow amplifies visage's damage by a lot, but both need lane farm, aren't that useful in early skirmishes and visage in turn doesn't cover drow's weaknesses at all. Drow+Visage is still a good combo, but requires a very specialized lineup compared to the flexibility that drow+dazzle f.e. give you.
How are people feeling about Visage at the moment?
In 7.00 he felt too strong if you understood the limitations of Familiars and how much leeway you had when away. from GC aura. Now they feel pitifully weak against burst damage and you're often forced to Stone Form immediately if you don't blindside the enemy team.
EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/images/f/f8/Visage_Large.png)
) and can do a lot with a fast 6 if ur a player. 
