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On May 21 2014 06:28 DCLXVI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 06:19 Orome wrote:On May 21 2014 05:57 Sn0_Man wrote:
I dunno about damage items but I'd assume it isn't relevant lol. You can buy/sell rapiers to do Rosh more quickly! I saw Burning do it in a pub once, super risky, but quite effective. Casually buys a rapier because he can't kill rosh fast enough when he has 6k gold in the bank? If you accidentally finish an item that can be split, can you immidiately split the item and then sell the part back?
yea non disassemblable items can actually be disassembled for 10 seconds
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How to play vs a weaver/omni line?
We were wraith king (as carry) and rhasta (that was me), first two levels was ok but then omni had soul ring and repell and then hell broke loose, they killed us twice and took tower and lane was totally lost with almost no farm on WK.
I have no idea what I as a support could have done better, I pulled when the creep wave was pushing from our tower but almost all of the time we were close to our tower but they didnt care about the tower. That lane seems like to be lost from the start?
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Sounds like a losing lane to me. If you can get into a position of you both being high mana/health you can try killing omni with WK stun into shackle or something while kinda tanking weaver damage, but thats about the best I think you can hope for. I'd expect your lane to be losing every time they dont massively overextend though. Another small advice could be to try to make a go at lvl 1 before they have both heal/repel and both shukuchi/geminate, but I dont expect that to make much of a difference in the big picture.
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A poll to gather information about your habits regarding regeneration!
Poll: How much money do you currently have?$0-$999 (60) 30% $1000-$4999 (35) 18% Over $50000 (29) 15% $5000-$9999 (23) 12% $20000-$29999 (21) 11% $10000-$19999 (18) 9% $30000-$49999 (14) 7% 200 total votes Your vote: How much money do you currently have? (Vote): $0-$999
(Vote): $1000-$4999
(Vote): $5000-$9999
(Vote): $10000-$19999
(Vote): $20000-$29999
(Vote): $30000-$49999
(Vote): Over $50000
While the question is pretty straightforward, I'll give some background:
Lately (4-6 months ago) I've started dropping items that give me, directly or indirectly, life and mana before using any sort of regen, and what I've found is that:
First: it is addictive and it feels good to get more mana and life;
Second: not enough people do it on my mmr.
Even on lategame Tinker, I've recently started to not sell my bottle even when 6-slotted, and when I go base with low mana, I drop every item that gives me mana, pick up the bottle and then spam it to get back into the action 5-10 seconds earlier. Though obviously, it is mostly applied to early game with a bottle and an arcane boots/null talisman type of scenario on mid.
So, I wanted to make a thread to see how people feel about that practice and how many do it, as, from my point of view, it is a pretty awesome habit to pick up, and will save your life or make you get a clutch kill.
I play on 4.5k mmr for reference.
Edit: improving formating of the post.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
i play at 3k MMR and i don't drop items that often to heal, except for KOTL where i get aghs (i drop aghs to chakra myself). i don't often get a bottle or treads since i'm position 5, but yeah i should be less lazy ;p
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
Yep, I'll drop items if I think it's safe to do so. Tread switching too.
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I dont drop but i should, im terrified something goes wrong and i loose my item:/
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United States47024 Posts
Even on lategame Tinker, I've recently started to not sell my bottle even when 6-slotted, and when I go base with low mana, I drop every item that gives me mana, pick up the bottle and then spam it to get back into the action 5-10 seconds earlier. Though obviously, it is mostly applied to early game with a bottle and an arcane boots/null talisman type of scenario on mid.
The difference is a lot less than 5-10s. A level 25 Tinker with Sheep+Force+Dagon+EBlade spamming bottle regens from 0 to full mana only 2s faster than if he drops everything, not even including Sheeps' increased mana regen, the fact that you rarely enter fountain at absolutely zero mana, and the fact that you can leave fountain at less than full HP/mana because the fountain regen buff persists. Factoring in the time it takes to drop and pick up everything, you're saving time on the order of ~1s depending on how fast you are at picking up and dropping 4 items (and if you're not practiced on picking up/dropping that many items in the span of a second, you're probably actually taking more time).
It's actually far more pronounced early game when you have limited regen overall, Bottle regen makes a larger percentage of your health regen in fountain (since fountain regen is % life/mana based), and you have less stat-granting items to drop. Late-game the effective gain is much smaller/nonexistent.
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On May 21 2014 16:33 Silho wrote:
A poll to gather information about your habits regarding regeneration!....
Dropping items doesn't give you that much edge if not cost some other things.
Tread switching and arcane boot boosting(dropping flat mana/int items before mana boots) are the only efficient things to do I have in my mind. Others are gimmicky.
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On May 21 2014 19:26 Laserist wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 16:33 Silho wrote:
A poll to gather information about your habits regarding regeneration!....
Dropping items doesn't give you that much edge if not cost some other things. Tread switching and arcane boot boosting(dropping flat mana/int items before mana boots) are the only efficient things to do I have in my mind. Others are gimmicky.
It's far from gimmicky when it can make a difference, although whoever plays Dota casually shouldn't feel forced to maximize regen efficiency.
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I tried something different in an aura/buffdraft but we lost and i dont like losing alot. My pubs tend to be decided more by execution/itembuilds and less by the actual drafts most of time. But i wonder if it was a descent draft.
1. Is a Venge, DK, Drow, Weaver, Ogre lineup a descent draft (luna/lycan was banned and the visage is hard to play for most mediocre players so i didnt want to pick that hero)?
2. If so, what seems best : 212 or 311 or 211semi-J ?
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On May 21 2014 20:28 govie wrote:
I tried something different in an aura/buffdraft but we lost and i dont like losing alot. My pubs tend to be decided more by execution/itembuilds and less by the actual drafts most of time. But i wonder if it was a descent draft.
1. Is a Venge, DK, Drow, Weaver, Ogre lineup a descent draft (luna/lycan was banned and the visage is hard to play for most mediocre players so i didnt want to pick that hero)?
2. If so, what seems best : 212 or 311 or 211semi-J ?
I am not an expert but I asked these questions myself.
Venge+Ogre is a sick roam combo but Drow doesn't complement with them since she is so easy to gank. Especially if the other team puts 2 range to the hard lane, the supports have to stay in lane and protect drow/pulling. Eventually inefficient considering lane winner supports(Cm, Visage etc..). Nowhere means bad but needs some justification.
If so, 3-1-1 into level 2-3 roam rotation from venge-ogre into the mid. 3 core farm until early mid game. If mid gank secures a kill, push tower with DK ulti. Maybe some rotation from DK to easy lane and push easy lane tower for early gold. Depends on enemy at that point. I see no jungle even heavy pulling(like until 10+ mins non stop) with that draft. Be active all the time and rotate supports.
One fantasy could be putting a agressive tri but neither drow nor ogre are suitable for that. Replace Ogre-drow with naix-leshrac/visage or complete revision of trilane by naix-sd-mirana/leshrac are interesting choices.
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On May 21 2014 20:28 govie wrote:
I tried something different in an aura/buffdraft but we lost and i dont like losing alot. My pubs tend to be decided more by execution/itembuilds and less by the actual drafts most of time. But i wonder if it was a descent draft.
1. Is a Venge, DK, Drow, Weaver, Ogre lineup a descent draft (luna/lycan was banned and the visage is hard to play for most mediocre players so i didnt want to pick that hero)?
2. If so, what seems best : 212 or 311 or 211semi-J ?
You should probably focus on one thing or the other. Aura heavy draft often focus on pushing. Pair with summon heroes or good necro carriers and shove your zoo of aura buffed creatures onto enemy towers. Good for early Rosh too.
Draft that focus on buffs doesnt really exist in competitive afaik, unless you call Tiny/Wisp a buff-draft. Sure getting a buff for your carry is nice but you do it as an addition to something else (relocate/tether in Tiny/Wisp example), I dont think you can solely draft just for buffs. But anyway the idea behind heavy buffs is that you have a really hard carry that becomes a monster with them. For example you have Void with a Magnus and Ogre on the team or something along those lines.
But either way I dont see the synergy between buffs and auras. Auras focus more on early game (when they matter more) and buffs more on lategame (when they together with items makes your carry superman).
That said your draft doesnt have to be bad just because of that. Depending on enemy heroes/lanes and overall game plan it could still be a strong draft. I was just talking generally about auras/buffs. I dont think anyone can answer whether its a good or bad draft unless knowing how the drafting went down and what enemy heroes there were.
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On May 21 2014 16:00 WladimirUN wrote:
How to play vs a weaver/omni line?
We were wraith king (as carry) and rhasta (that was me), first two levels was ok but then omni had soul ring and repell and then hell broke loose, they killed us twice and took tower and lane was totally lost with almost no farm on WK.
I have no idea what I as a support could have done better, I pulled when the creep wave was pushing from our tower but almost all of the time we were close to our tower but they didnt care about the tower. That lane seems like to be lost from the start?
Weaver is a stronger laner than wraith king, omni is a greedy support but so is rhasta. Rhasta being a bit less greedy doesn't make up for the weaver > wraith king part.
How to play against it? be a little bitch. Omni is pretty bad without farm, so you have that tradeoff in your favour. Or pick a stronger lane.
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On May 21 2014 20:28 govie wrote:
I tried something different in an aura/buffdraft but we lost and i dont like losing alot. My pubs tend to be decided more by execution/itembuilds and less by the actual drafts most of time. But i wonder if it was a descent draft.
1. Is a Venge, DK, Drow, Weaver, Ogre lineup a descent draft (luna/lycan was banned and the visage is hard to play for most mediocre players so i didnt want to pick that hero)?
2. If so, what seems best : 212 or 311 or 211semi-J ?
Well, it's always important to remember that regardless of how strong your draft is on paper, if the people you're playing with are uncomfortable with their heroes, you still won't do all that well.
That aside, someone else said aura strats are usually pushing strats and I think that's definitely the case here. Drow and Weaver and DK are all pretty strong pushers and with the VS and Ogre buffs even more so. There are some heroes that the other team might have drafted which can stall a pushing lineup---without knowing the other team it's hard to say. Also, if you played it too passively or wasted too much time between pushing towers midgame, then you might have lost the edge.
But all in all, looks to me like a pretty strong draft. The main issue early game seems to be how to get experience for your supports, since neither VS nor Ogre are good at jungling. 2/1/2 is probably fine, trilane if Drow gets pressured or you want to roam a lot, or even aggro tri if the other team has a weak safe lane.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 21 2014 20:28 govie wrote:
1. Is a Venge, DK, Drow, Weaver, Ogre lineup a descent draft (luna/lycan was banned and the visage is hard to play for most mediocre players so i didnt want to pick that hero)?
2. If so, what seems best : 212 or 311 or 211semi-J ?
Your draft has quite a few issues:
1) Weak laning. Ogre+Venge are very weak lane supports. Drow is strong in certain matchups but is very easy to pick against. DK is a stalemate lane at best. Weaver is your strongest laner, but you're essentially ditching him on the off-lane because your supports have a hard time helping him overall. If you get aggressive trilaned, you're going to have trouble with most strong trilane heroes in this version (Mirana, WD, etc.), while similarly being weak to having an enemy jungler like Chen or Enchantress in play because they break T1s earlier than you (VS/Drow need levels and don't level fast enough to take the enemy T1 before a Chen or Enchan would break theirs).
Your early game basically depends upon Venge/Ogre being able to get kills with their double roam, but given that neither of the two can farm, this should be blatantly obvious to your opponent as well.
2) Your lineup is too greedy. You have 3 cores, but none are really tempo-carrying early cores (e.g. Storm, QoP kind of heroes), and overall your lineup including the supports are all far too item- and level-dependent to be able to fight. Essentially, your game plan revolves around your pushing tempo, but you don't have any way to jumpstart your pushing because you don't have a ganking core (e.g. Centaur, Batrider, Storm, Beastmaster etc.) or strong pushing jungler (Chen, Enchantress) to advance your game plan. So all that ends up happening is you farm your lanes hoping the enemy will fuck up and feed you kills.
3) Nonexistent counterpush. DK is the only real counterpushing hero your lineup has, but in order to defend pushes, you tend to need a minimum of 2-3 solid AoE nukes that can clear creep waves (2 is sufficient for regular creep waves, 3+ are necessary against Chen/Enchan/Furion type heroes and post-Mek).
What this means is that a lot of lineups will just take control of the game early and walk all over your. Your supports can't farm easily so unless the enemy laners give you free kills against the very obvious double stun roam, it's very hard for them to countergank kills that happen after something like enemy mid or offlane level 6 + level 3-4 supports because your supports will probably have a 1-2 level disadvantage compared to their counterparts on the other team, so once the enemy gets a ganking hero online, your team doesn't have adequate defensive ability to prevent losing map control. Alternatively, as I mentioned before, your counterpush is weak and your push kicks in somewhat later than Chen/Enchan so an enemy using either of those heroes can break T1s, and start a snowballing push tempo that you can't stop because your supports will be underfarmed/underleveled, and your cores won't have their key items yet.
Your lineup is insanely strong lategame because of the DK+Drow+Weaver tricore with Venge support, but honestly this level of lategame strength is unnecessary because fundamentally an aura lineup's stacking stat boosts on everyone already makes you strong in a longer game. There's not really a need for your lineup to be as greedy as it is, and you need to consider drafting strong early game heroes that give you better control/ability to develop your game plan early on.
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On May 21 2014 06:26 Sn0_Man wrote:
I mean once u get the rosh why sell the rapier? And if ur that rich u could just buy something else to do rosh fast? lol
Still thats mega next level and pretty cool.
Haha, well in this particular game he was a rich storm, but the rest of his team was really far behind. From what I remember, they finally won a teamfight on the back of Burning going ham, take a tier 2, then try to get rosh before the other team respawns. He got multiple kills so he suddenly has over 6k gold, but it's not late enough in the game for him to actually consider going rapier storm. So in this (admittedly very specific and rare :p) scenario it did make some sense.
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How do you play kunkka? I just can't get my win for the 10 hero challenge, 9 loss so far T.T
I go Bottle > Phase > Shadowblade, WQWEERWWQQQREE.
I can win my lane pretty easily with tidebringer but after that things just go downhill and I just cant win a game :/
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Thx guys.
Yes, apparantly i outcombo'd myself here because of my greedy nature:and it resulted in this shitty draft. Seems all my love for these (semi)passives has contributed in a loss.
As alot of you stated ,the game felt somewhat greedy and it was indeed hard to defend t1's and t2's, even without the enemy having a chen or enchantress. Ofcourse i can say that the dk or weaver should have gotten a magic immunity item as core, but I was the drafter, i should have made the lineup a little easier to execute and give the supports a bit more farmingpotential somehow. I normally draft greedy when i play tree myself because i can help in every lane in alot of ways, with the ogre pick i didnt have that global ungreedy safetymeasure either.
Again thx all, sometimes "greed isnt allways good" ®gordonfreeman®
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What's the difference between magic wand and magic stick??? I don't see it. Is it just the 5 extra charges? Is there ever a time i should NOT buy a magic wand against Storm Spirit?
Is there any advantages to saving the charges (do you get more benefit if it's charged up more) or is it just always 15 per charge? Seems like I should just be spamming it whenever possible against someone like zeus or SS.
Also, what boots on Abaddon? I guess Arcane if my lane mate needs mana and I'm going to be tanking and tranquil if I'm just sitting back shielding him?? (support Abaddon)
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EPT
