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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
053 stack ez 100 kill ez 120 kill hard camp if satyrs or wildkins or trolls, otherwise kill med 153 stack med or hard 200 check rune after stack or drop a bh in lane 220 clear any non ez camp 253 stack ez camp 300 kill ez camp etc it depends a lot on what camps you get and how often you help your team tho basically if you hit 6 in 6~8 minutes youre on track | ||
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
iv been trying axe out a lot and hitting 6 late because I bite off more then I can chew in hard camps. | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
:30 be as close as possible to small camp. Also check what the medium camp is (if centaur/wolves, send yourself another healing potion). clear small camp, run to stack medium camp (may fail against priests, unlucky spins against ghost). if you can't clear by mid'40's, run to medium camp 1-2: clear double stack medium. Now you can clear small or if you're lucky and didn't get centaurs in the double spawn, you can gank mid as a level 3 at 1:xx. 1:53 stack hard keep clearing small/medium, very sustainable once you get tranquil. And stack hard. Note: if hard camp is trolls, you can clear it as a double stack early. Otherwise: clearing the hard superstack: you should be at full health, have a tango, and there should be a reasonable number of range creep. Level 3 helix and/or a chainmail really help. Run to the right and choke point jungle the hard stack, while a single melee hit you. You should spin almost all the melee creep. Once all the melee are dead, activate tranquil and kill the trolls (or stack them). Congrats, you've killed every single neutral stack in those 3 camps except the 1:00 spawn. Further tricks: if you level 2+ battle hunger the hard camp at :43-44, then run to the medium camp at :52-54, then run towards the hard camp, you will double stack both camps. Sentinel side is much much slower and harder, especially if you don't steal support pulls, and you're much easier to gank | ||
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Rodberd
Germany531 Posts
On August 06 2013 07:04 Chaoz wrote: Can I hotkey the basic and upgrades tab in the shop? you cant. but when you use the standard-shop hotkey you are basicly there. if you want to buy a specific item, put it into the quickbuy zone (right lower corner below your stash) and use the hotkey of quickbuy to get a part as soon as you can afford it. another way to make the shoping faster is to turn of the tabs and let it display them as a grid (there is a button in the shop-interface) | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8913 Posts
On August 06 2013 09:29 r.Evo wrote: The playstyle you described ("as a furion youll be playing most of the game either split pushing or jungling on your own (might not happen in pubs but this is how youre supposed to play him)") is, in almost all cases, not the optimal way to play Furion in pubs. You're not "supposed to play" a hero in a certain way, if you genuinely care about improving you're supposed to understand the heroes role, the heroes potentials and how itemization has an impact on those. While you're saying "farm, splitpush and mostly ignore your team" what Yango is trying to tell you is that that style isn't suited for pubs. Hell, it's not even suited in competetive games depending on what's going on exactly. Rushing a Midas assumes a slow early game tempo, rushing Urn/Medallion assumes that you have opportunities early on to get an advantage for both yourself and your team. Other options for your itemization include Orchid (similar assumption as Urn/Medallion, just with a different timing), Mek (e.g. when you can safely assume that your supports won't be able to get one in a timely manner due to the way lanes turned out) or even mixtures like Urn -> Brown Boots -> Midas (assuming early action that will turn into a farmoriented/splitpushing scenario in the midgame). Saying "don't get Urn let a support get it" is the type of brainless advice that makes people NOT improve because it's incredibly generic. Urn, and to a lesser extent Medallion, are great items in games when it's safe to assume that there will be lots of kill opportunities early on during lanephase - which is exactly what tends to happen in most pub games. Lanes don't look like this will be the case? Great, since you know why the item is strong for pubs in general, you now also understand when/why not to build it. ? are you suggesting that furion should sit in lane and be involved in all the fights because hes such a good teamfight hero? or that he should be tping to lanes with an enemy farming there already because hes so good at disrupting opponents' farm? furion is a split pusher period. that is how the hero is supposed to be played. you dont pick furion to do something that isnt suited for him and when other heroes are better than him at it. it doesnt matter if the split pushing style doesnt work in pubs for you, its what furion is designed to do, and honestly ive never had a problem playing like that in pubs even once. also, i never said "mostly ignore your team". it just means you have to know your priorities. obviously in 5v5 engagements you want to be there unless you know you can snipe important buildings instead, but in small skirmishes you can choose whether to get involved or take a free tower. and if you really wanted to give yourself an early advantage in fights, you wouldnt rush urn or medallion, you would rush mek. urn doesnt give you anything you really need and so saying its a good pick up just because you might be able to take advantage of the charges you may or may not collect doesnt make it a good item for furion. the little hp you get is negligent come mid game and the mana regen is also not needed. "dont get urn, let a support get it" isnt bad advice. if a new player came here and just blindly followed yango's advice, he may have found himself in a situation where 1. a support player also has it and he realises that hes not getting any charges or hes splitting charges in fights with the support player, thus reducing the efficiency of the item. 2. hes the only one with urn but he finds its not that useful for furion. the charges come in handy but the rest of the stats arent needed and he finds himself thinking he could have spent 800gold elsewhere, such as mek,orchid,hex,sb (higher impact items). im not gonna argue anymore on this topic, nothing you say will change my opinion on this | ||
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
Since pubs are won by killing people more than map control, furion should focus on killing people. Not to say he shouldn't split push ever, but often the way the game plays out means that it isn't the right choice. To make a SC2 analogy, you shouldn't teach new players to do basic cheeses because they won't work for a long time. But they need to learn to defend against these rushes because otherwise they aren't going to be able to increase their MMR so they don't get stupid rushes. So you might do something slightly suboptimal (ie 14 pool rather than 15 hatch) so that you are more suited to the "meta" of low level play. | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:21 LAN-f34r wrote: Furion isn't that great at split pushing. He has treants, which are ok at tanking the tower but don't do much damage. Furion's strength is being able to be everywhere. He can be split pushing a lane, but still join fight to make it 5v5. In the laning stage, his power is threatening every lane with a tp gank all the time. Since pubs are won by killing people more than map control, furion should focus on killing people. Not to say he shouldn't split push ever, but often the way the game plays out means that it isn't the right choice. To make a SC2 analogy, you shouldn't teach new players to do basic cheeses because they won't work for a long time. But they need to learn to defend against these rushes because otherwise they aren't going to be able to increase their MMR so they don't get stupid rushes. So you might do something slightly suboptimal (ie 14 pool rather than 15 hatch) so that you are more suited to the "meta" of low level play. Split pushing isn't a basic cheese. Comparing it to such would be selling it short. It's more like threatening base trades without ever engaging the enemy army. An alternate gameplan that can work at any point in the game. The only thing I want to add is that Furion needs at least 1 combat item on top of boots before he can contribute more than sprout | ||
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sc_a.M
420 Posts
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woreyour
582 Posts
On August 06 2013 22:49 sc_a.M wrote: why isn't shadowblade on sven as common as on alchemist? I think Sven needs other much more impt items( BKB, MoM) than to rush for SB. But SB on Sven is totally okay since I saw some people using dagger as well. Another thing is that Sven can just outright stun unlike Alch that needs SB to effectively initiate / position himself. But we need a Captain here  | ||
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Oukka
Finland1683 Posts
On August 06 2013 22:16 Mataza wrote: Split pushing isn't a basic cheese. Comparing it to such would be selling it short. It's more like threatening base trades without ever engaging the enemy army. An alternate gameplan that can work at any point in the game. The only thing I want to add is that Furion needs at least 1 combat item on top of boots before he can contribute more than sprout I think the point was that pub playstyle in Dota 2 is comparable to ''meta'' of low level SC2. If you want to succeed you use the knowledge of the nature of the game, i.e. lots of cheese for SC2 and lots of low coordination deathmatches for Dota 2, to your advantage. Trying to emulate competitive play in non-competitive environment is not always the smart thing to do, and this is why for example playing furion differently from TI3 teams is probably going to work very well. | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On August 06 2013 18:16 evilfatsh1t wrote: ? are you suggesting that furion should sit in lane and be involved in all the fights because hes such a good teamfight hero? or that he should be tping to lanes with an enemy farming there already because hes so good at disrupting opponents' farm? furion is a split pusher period. that is how the hero is supposed to be played. you dont pick furion to do something that isnt suited for him and when other heroes are better than him at it. it doesnt matter if the split pushing style doesnt work in pubs for you, its what furion is designed to do, and honestly ive never had a problem playing like that in pubs even once. also, i never said "mostly ignore your team". it just means you have to know your priorities. obviously in 5v5 engagements you want to be there unless you know you can snipe important buildings instead, but in small skirmishes you can choose whether to get involved or take a free tower. and if you really wanted to give yourself an early advantage in fights, you wouldnt rush urn or medallion, you would rush mek. urn doesnt give you anything you really need and so saying its a good pick up just because you might be able to take advantage of the charges you may or may not collect doesnt make it a good item for furion. the little hp you get is negligent come mid game and the mana regen is also not needed. "dont get urn, let a support get it" isnt bad advice. if a new player came here and just blindly followed yango's advice, he may have found himself in a situation where 1. a support player also has it and he realises that hes not getting any charges or hes splitting charges in fights with the support player, thus reducing the efficiency of the item. 2. hes the only one with urn but he finds its not that useful for furion. the charges come in handy but the rest of the stats arent needed and he finds himself thinking he could have spent 800gold elsewhere, such as mek,orchid,hex,sb (higher impact items). im not gonna argue anymore on this topic, nothing you say will change my opinion on this One of prophet's biggest strengths is the ability to be anywhere on the map, and by extension the ability to be a +1 to any gank attempt. Not joining in ganks as prophet is a textbook example of not playing to a heroes strengths. On August 06 2013 22:49 sc_a.M wrote: why isn't shadowblade on sven as common as on alchemist? Sven's stun is point and click, Alchemist needs to charge his stun. If enemies see you coming at them while charging your stun (theres no animation, but most of the time it's pretty obvious) they'll either run away or disable you until you stun yourself. Shadow blade lets you charge up without being seen, allowing you to reliably get a full duration stun. It improves your solo kill ability a lot more than it would on someone like Sven. Blink is actually better synergy for your stun, but since Alch is usually played as a carry shadow blade is preferred because it gives you combat stats as well. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8272 Posts
On August 06 2013 23:21 woreyour wrote: I think Sven needs other much more impt items( BKB, MoM) than to rush for SB. But SB on Sven is totally okay since I saw some people using dagger as well. Another thing is that Sven can just outright stun unlike Alch that needs SB to effectively initiate / position himself. But we need a Captain here This is correct. Alch needs SB because his stun needs time to charge up, and it can do that through invis. Sven on the other hand has an instant stun, and will be much more effective with blink. SB on sven doesn't really do much for him, likewise blink on alch requires constant vision, tons of preperations, and a bit of luck, which generally isn't a good recipe. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On August 06 2013 20:21 LAN-f34r wrote: Furion isn't that great at split pushing. He has treants, which are ok at tanking the tower but don't do much damage. Furion's strength is being able to be everywhere. He can be split pushing a lane, but still join fight to make it 5v5. In the laning stage, his power is threatening every lane with a tp gank all the time. Since pubs are won by killing people more than map control, furion should focus on killing people. Not to say he shouldn't split push ever, but often the way the game plays out means that it isn't the right choice. To make a SC2 analogy, you shouldn't teach new players to do basic cheeses because they won't work for a long time. But they need to learn to defend against these rushes because otherwise they aren't going to be able to increase their MMR so they don't get stupid rushes. So you might do something slightly suboptimal (ie 14 pool rather than 15 hatch) so that you are more suited to the "meta" of low level play. This is completely wrong - Furion is one of the strongest split pushers in the game because his global presence requires a huge amount of commitment from the other team, and he can effectively splitpush without not participating in teamfights. And his treants tank / do a decent amount of damage on towers. The decision between participating in fights (early on, you almost always want to be in every fight) and splitpushing is one that takes experience, but furion definitely shouldn't ALWAYS focus on killing people. | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
On August 06 2013 23:42 Comeh wrote: This is completely wrong - Furion is one of the strongest split pushers in the game because his global presence requires a huge amount of commitment from the other team, and he can effectively splitpush without not participating in teamfights. And his treants tank / do a decent amount of damage on towers. The decision between participating in fights (early on, you almost always want to be in every fight) and splitpushing is one that takes experience, but furion definitely shouldn't ALWAYS focus on killing people. With how low the cooldown is on rank 4 teleport is doesn't cost you anything to join fights though. The only fights you shouldn't join are the ones that are hopeless to begin with | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On August 06 2013 23:21 woreyour wrote: I think Sven needs other much more impt items( BKB, MoM) than to rush for SB. But SB on Sven is totally okay since I saw some people using dagger as well. Another thing is that Sven can just outright stun unlike Alch that needs SB to effectively initiate / position himself. But we need a Captain here Pretty sure its the setup time more than anything. Alc needs to hide and hang around whilst his stun charges but be close enough to throw it without scaring the opponent away. Sven on the other hand can just stun them immediately...and anyone nearby...and then run in and manmode them all at once in the face with his gigantic sword using cleave... Come to think of it why isn't Sven played all that much lately given how much Alc is being played? He seems to be based on similar principles but with a few downsides and a few bonuses to differentiate. And don't give me "because Alc can be support too" because you can play support Sven as well. Edit: With regards to this Furion discussion...please don't use ridiculous terms like "this is how its supposed to be played!" Its almost as an absurd a comment as "mid should always gank". Each game and each hero is different. | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
On August 07 2013 00:40 -Celestial- wrote: Pretty sure its the setup time more than anything. Alc needs to hide and hang around whilst his stun charges but be close enough to throw it without scaring the opponent away. Sven on the other hand can just stun them immediately...and anyone nearby...and then run in and manmode them all at once in the face with his gigantic sword using cleave... Come to think of it why isn't Sven played all that much lately given how much Alc is being played? He seems to be based on similar principles but with a few downsides and a few bonuses to differentiate. And don't give me "because Alc can be support too" because you can play support Sven as well. Edit: With regards to this Furion discussion...please don't use ridiculous terms like "this is how its supposed to be played!" Its almost as an absurd a comment as "mid should always gank". Each game and each hero is different. but sven isnt that even tanky. alche is tanky when in rage form and with decreased BAT. Sven has the damage but not the aspd. he usually needs MoM for that but also sacrifices tanky~ness. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8913 Posts
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Gotuso
Netherlands733 Posts
Personally, I've been playing him as a pusher/farmer for most of my games. However, I often found that I either couldn't split push safely because of a Nyx or Spiritbreaker, or my team really needed a 5th in teamfights. By going Medallion, or Urn apparently, I was hoping to contribute more to my team, creating space for my carry/offlaner allowing for a better 4 man team if I split push. I still have a few questions though: - What about a Dagon rush instead of Urn/Medallion? Too slow/unreliable, too silly? Should I get an Urn/Medallion first and then Dagon after? - What is everyone's thoughts on Desolator? I heard it's a weak item on Prophet, but it always feels like I do so much more damge/split pushing with it then with something else. Is Necronomicon really a better (pushing) item? - Why do pro player build Phase Boots on Prophet? I always get Power Threads without question, yet in pro game I see people go Phase quite often. Is there a point in going Phase in pubs? | ||
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Jochan
Poland1730 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8272 Posts
On August 07 2013 02:42 Gotuso wrote: Thanks for the reply/discussion on my Nature's Prophet question! Personally, I've been playing him as a pusher/farmer for most of my games. However, I often found that I either couldn't split push safely because of a Nyx or Spiritbreaker, or my team really needed a 5th in teamfights. By going Medallion, or Urn apparently, I was hoping to contribute more to my team, creating space for my carry/offlaner allowing for a better 4 man team if I split push. I still have a few questions though: - What about a Dagon rush instead of Urn/Medallion? Too slow/unreliable, too silly? Should I get an Urn/Medallion first and then Dagon after? - What is everyone's thoughts on Desolator? I heard it's a weak item on Prophet, but it always feels like I do so much more damge/split pushing with it then with something else. Is Necronomicon really a better (pushing) item? - Why do pro player build Phase Boots on Prophet? I always get Power Threads without question, yet in pro game I see people go Phase quite often. Is there a point in going Phase in pubs? Here's my personal opinion which Yango will most likely disagree with: Dagon is amazing on Nature Prophet in pubs, all the way up to the highest games. If you get an early dagon, you'll have the ability to teleport into any gank anywhere and deal very high instant damage, netting you kills and allowing you to start snowballing. The problem is getting it. Midlane is really nice for this, but you'll most likely get flamed and chased away due to peoples narrow perspective of what a hero is "suppose" to do. Safelane is also ideal for this if there is no other hardcarry in it. Its too difficult to pull off in the offlane, and you'll have the wrong skillset if you go woods. Desolator is one of my core items on NP simply due to it allowing you to destroy towers incredibly fast, making you that much more of a deadly counterpusher. It also allows you to be useful in teamfights not only by dealing out more direct damage, but also by allowing others to deal damage with its minus armor. I'd pick this over Necro because desolator doesn't have cooldown, and it helps you along to that lategame carry role you're going to end up in. BUT, if your team has an allin pushing strat, necro does push better than deso. It also has the added bonus of detection. So keep it in mind if your opponents has, say, a riki. Phase boots allows you to deal more damage and chase down your opponents. That said its a bit of a gamble, as NP doesn't exactly have amazing survivability. In pubs I'd go for threads as well. | ||
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