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The most effective and easy way is to buy stout and 2 healpots and stack the camps before actually fighting them. Stack small camp at the early levels, stack mediums after that.
It's important to know which camps you can actually beat reasonably well so you don't get too much damage.
If there are satyrs, stand a bit away so the small ones dont die instantly to counter helix. They do around 7-10 damage(no typo), but their hits do proc counter helix.
Don't stack hard camps before you have at least lvl 7. You can do medium camps reasonably well with lvl 3-4. Hard camps will do a noticable chunk of damage to you until you have ~lvl 7-8 or you have a health item(tranqil boots, vanguard etc.).
You can do stacked hard camps if you both have a health item and lvl 7-8.
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On August 06 2013 02:40 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 02:23 hooahah wrote:
(battle hunger if you're laning, helix if you're jungle)
Jungle Axe still maxes Hunger after 1 point Helix. Hunger's strength in early ganks outweighs the slightly faster farming speed of Helix.
What do you do with the other points? Hunger -> Call -> Helix or Hunger -> Helix -> Call (with 1 point call when it makes sense)
Stack small camp at the early levels, stack mediums after that.
Is there a specific way to handle the small camp at the start? Would you stack once -> clear immediately or is it better to stack 3 times then clear?
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Recently I've been trying going for Medallion first on Nature's Prophet instead of Midas. So far it's been going great, the increased dmg really helps during a gank. However, what I'm wondering is what exactly do you do with this build item wise. I start of with Ring of Bassilus and 2x Clarities, disassembling for a quick Medallion. After that I go for Power Threads, then Desolator for the extra -armor and pushing power. Late I go for Sheepstick, then kinda whatever.
Is this decent? I know some people hate Deso on Prophet, should I go straight for Scythe? I understand that there is no fixed build, but just asking in general.
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United States47024 Posts
Going Urn or Medallion -> later Midas is actually very reasonable in pub games as Furion, as it increases your contribution to ganks. By and large, though, Urn has a greater contribution than Medallion unless you are looking to Roshan early. The damage increase to physical damage typically does not outperform the Urn nuke until your team is doing a significant amount of physical damage, which doesn't happen until a fair bit later.
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On August 06 2013 05:32 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 02:40 TheYango wrote:On August 06 2013 02:23 hooahah wrote:
(battle hunger if you're laning, helix if you're jungle)
Jungle Axe still maxes Hunger after 1 point Helix. Hunger's strength in early ganks outweighs the slightly faster farming speed of Helix. What do you do with the other points? Hunger -> Call -> Helix or Hunger -> Helix -> Call (with 1 point call when it makes sense) Is there a specific way to handle the small camp at the start? Would you stack once -> clear immediately or is it better to stack 3 times then clear?
At the start of the game, creeps spawn at 0:30 and you can stack at 0:53
I would do the stacked camp immediately to get lvl 2 or close to it and proceed to a medium camp(not wolves, wolves will fuck your shit)
Because the small camp will spawn again at 2:00, you can and should stack a medium camp at 1:53. You will not be able to clear it immediately, so save it for later.
At 2:53 stack small again and clear.
When you have can't kill a camp and have to wait for the others to respawn, you can go to the lane next to you and cast battlehunger on an enemy in there. If you want to stack afterwards, don't forget to go back to jungle in time.
It's basically freestyle from there. Clear camps, stack camps, go harass or gank the lane.
On August 06 2013 05:56 Gotuso wrote:
Recently I've been trying going for Medallion first on Nature's Prophet instead of Midas. So far it's been going great, the increased dmg really helps during a gank. However, what I'm wondering is what exactly do you do with this build item wise. I start of with Ring of Bassilus and 2x Clarities, disassembling for a quick Medallion. After that I go for Power Threads, then Desolator for the extra -armor and pushing power. Late I go for Sheepstick, then kinda whatever.
Is this decent? I know some people hate Deso on Prophet, should I go straight for Scythe? I understand that there is no fixed build, but just asking in general.
I think it's decent. My personal build is shadowblade or orchid malevolence first, then sheepstick second.(The dps on first item really helps)
What items you need depends mainly on how you play. Medaillon helps a lot with killing Roshan, for example. Shadowblade is mainly used so you can escape when pushing a lane very far in enemy side of the map.
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dont get urn on furion. let a support get it. you dont need it that badly and you probably wont be able to use it as effectively as a support could.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 06 2013 06:47 evilfatsh1t wrote:
dont get urn on furion. let a support get it. you dont need it that badly and you probably wont be able to use it as effectively as a support could.
How won't you be able to use it as effectively? You should be in 75%+ of kills as Furion in a pub, so you'll start getting charges earlier, have a lot more of them, and use more of them than a support would.
Personally I hate the words "let a support get it". Particularly since in pubs, that usually just means your team won't have one.
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as a furion youll be playing most of the game either split pushing or jungling on your own (might not happen in pubs but this is how youre supposed to play him). you might pop in for the occasional gank, but in most cases you will not be directly involved in small fights as much as a support would. there will be cases when all your team requires you to do is throw your ulti to ensure a kill, meaning you wont stack charges on urn even if you have it. if a support has urn in this case, not only would he collect charges easier but he can actually use the healing aspect of it properly too. furion cant do that because as i said, hes either split pushing or farming jungles and therefore is alone most of the game.
theres no point giving advice on what to do in pubs because you can do literally anything and win. for beginners giving them information on how to win a pub as opposed to how one would win a competitive game does not make them better at the game.
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United States47024 Posts
That's true in a competitive game, but I don't feel that's effective in a pub game. High gank/teamfight participation is necessary for success in a pub because a pure farming/split-push based MO simply does not work with a pub team that does not know how to abuse the map pressure you're creating.
Pub Furion should be in the majority of a team's kills.
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just edited in my previous post as to why i think its bad to give advice on how to win pubs specifically. you want people to learn to reason for themselves what the best solution would be in any given scenario. pubs dont require you to do that, and regardless of whether you play competitively or not, you should always assume your opponents are high level when you are trying to learn a game
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Can I hotkey the basic and upgrades tab in the shop?
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im pretty sure you can go to settings and turn on hotkeys for shop. dont think you can customise though
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United States47024 Posts
On August 06 2013 07:04 evilfatsh1t wrote:
just edited in my previous post as to why i think its bad to give advice on how to win pubs specifically. you want people to learn to reason for themselves what the best solution would be in any given scenario. pubs dont require you to do that, and regardless of whether you play competitively or not, you should always assume your opponents are high level when you are trying to learn a game
A high level pub still doesn't play like a competitive game. Pub DotA and competitive DotA are still fundamentally different, and seeing as most players will never touch competitive DotA anyway (and if they do, they will understand the distinction by then anyway), it's perfectly reasonable to teach how to win pubs.
And yes, you want players to learn to reason what's good and what isn't. But I'm not the one saying a particular item is bad and you shouldn't buy it. A player who's learning the reasoning for things should be exploring all the options and learning when they are good and not, not outright dismissing them before they've tried them.
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Evidence: Broodmother's winrate on dotabuff. Broodmother wasn't nerfed that much from when she was a permaban in competitive (although the meta changed a fair bit so we don't see her). But even though she is actually pretty easy to play by herself, just try to get your team to push as 4 without dying.
Split pushing just doesn't work in pubs unless the other team doesn't defend and you actually push towers/rax down.
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you cant give advice to someone based on the sole assumption that pubs are going to be bad. "get this, because your teammates are probably going to be too bad to get it for you." or "do this, because your opponents will probably be too bad to punish you for it". thats not how you give advice. a pro starcraft player who could do whatever the hell he wanted and still win a ladder match wouldnt give advice to a new player by telling him to do something that would definitely not work out in a high level game. and how was i outright dismissing urn? i gave an explanation on why it is not the optimal pick up for furion. i provided a reasoning for my verdict and anyone who is learning reads it could then choose to listen to me or not.
also broodmothers not that easy to play in pubs. low level people will feed spiderlings, or just feed with the hero because they think theyre invincible in their lane. good broodmothers will do their job, but the hero itself lacks carry potential and so you cant 1v5 their team. furion on the other hand can outcarry many games just using the farm he gets from split pushing multiple lanes and farming jungles.
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Urn the best ganker item, suitable for ganking orientated build furi, it is by all means an item suitable for every hero in any team while probably better suitable for #2/3 who actively ganking in pub. Not to say furi is probably the most versatile hero that can have so many ways to play him out in pub/comp games, there is no 'most effective build' on this hero which is also probably why the hero is so hard to play in higher level pub. While on the midas/urn first, it is all about the timing, 5/6mins midas why not, while 10mins midas is just slow, imagine you have a boots+urn for ganking before 9mins (just break the basi for urn) with your help or other lanes, you brought so much help to the team (which is the biggest problem of pub furi who go insane 20mins farm mode).
My steam guide if anyone needed one :D (it is supposed to be a handy guide for some lazy people like myself xD)
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=130673834
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How is morphling supposed to use morph? How much str should you trade for agi, as agi is just damage, so if you don't want to die instantly to spells then you need a bunch of str. Should you have 50% more str than agi at the beginning of a fight and then morph to have more agi during it? Or should you keep it constant throughout the fight?
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On August 06 2013 08:51 jrkirby wrote:
How is morphling supposed to use morph? How much str should you trade for agi, as agi is just damage, so if you don't want to die instantly to spells then you need a bunch of str. Should you have 50% more str than agi at the beginning of a fight and then morph to have more agi during it? Or should you keep it constant throughout the fight?
This is 95% of the knowledge required to play Morph. There really isn't a universally correct answer, you just have to know what abilities the enemy have, and have enough hp to not die right away and give you time to morph more hp should you get into trouble. When laning, keep an eye out on the enemy spells and levels, and keep your hp a bit beyond what they can cast on you. Preferably while keeping your agility high enough to out-lasthit your opponent(s). Also keep an eye out for misses on other lanes, and don't be afraid to morph a little bit more if your spider sense is tingling.
If you're going into a fight, it depends heavily on the type of situation you're going into. If the enemy have a lot of heavy hitting spells and you're the initiator, you should probably be heavy on the strength side, and maybe morph further into agi if they're ignoring you. If you're running to gank someone, morph as much agi as you can dare and just blast them before they can react (if you have a e-blade and morph to near no hp, you can crush most heroes in the midgame instantly with your 2 spells, this is a common tactic known as "shotgunning").
In the lategame once you've started getting some farm, you just have to know really. You are the hard-carry for your team, so try to gain as much agi as you possibly can, while keeping your hp above what you think the enemy team can do to you. Remember that agi gives armor as well, which is equally important. You always have the ability to morph more strength during a fight if you see yourself getting low.
tl;dr: Try to always keep as much agi as possible, and morph to strength during the fight rather than the other way around.
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On August 06 2013 08:51 jrkirby wrote:
How is morphling supposed to use morph? How much str should you trade for agi, as agi is just damage, so if you don't want to die instantly to spells then you need a bunch of str. Should you have 50% more str than agi at the beginning of a fight and then morph to have more agi during it? Or should you keep it constant throughout the fight?
You normally morph everything into agility (or have enough strength that you can take one round of spells if you don't have any items yet) and then when you start getting focused you turn on str morph and then nothing can kill you.
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On August 06 2013 07:20 evilfatsh1t wrote:
you cant give advice to someone based on the sole assumption that pubs are going to be bad. "get this, because your teammates are probably going to be too bad to get it for you." or "do this, because your opponents will probably be too bad to punish you for it". thats not how you give advice. a pro starcraft player who could do whatever the hell he wanted and still win a ladder match wouldnt give advice to a new player by telling him to do something that would definitely not work out in a high level game. and how was i outright dismissing urn? i gave an explanation on why it is not the optimal pick up for furion. i provided a reasoning for my verdict and anyone who is learning reads it could then choose to listen to me or not.
also broodmothers not that easy to play in pubs. low level people will feed spiderlings, or just feed with the hero because they think theyre invincible in their lane. good broodmothers will do their job, but the hero itself lacks carry potential and so you cant 1v5 their team. furion on the other hand can outcarry many games just using the farm he gets from split pushing multiple lanes and farming jungles.
The playstyle you described ("as a furion youll be playing most of the game either split pushing or jungling on your own (might not happen in pubs but this is how youre supposed to play him)") is, in almost all cases, not the optimal way to play Furion in pubs. You're not "supposed to play" a hero in a certain way, if you genuinely care about improving you're supposed to understand the heroes role, the heroes potentials and how itemization has an impact on those.
While you're saying "farm, splitpush and mostly ignore your team" what Yango is trying to tell you is that that style isn't suited for pubs. Hell, it's not even suited in competetive games depending on what's going on exactly.
Rushing a Midas assumes a slow early game tempo, rushing Urn/Medallion assumes that you have opportunities early on to get an advantage for both yourself and your team. Other options for your itemization include Orchid (similar assumption as Urn/Medallion, just with a different timing), Mek (e.g. when you can safely assume that your supports won't be able to get one in a timely manner due to the way lanes turned out) or even mixtures like Urn -> Brown Boots -> Midas (assuming early action that will turn into a farmoriented/splitpushing scenario in the midgame).
Saying "don't get Urn let a support get it" is the type of brainless advice that makes people NOT improve because it's incredibly generic. Urn, and to a lesser extent Medallion, are great items in games when it's safe to assume that there will be lots of kill opportunities early on during lanephase - which is exactly what tends to happen in most pub games.
Lanes don't look like this will be the case? Great, since you know why the item is strong for pubs in general, you now also understand when/why not to build it.
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EPT
