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On July 29 2013 06:06 hooahah wrote:
BF is especially good on AM thanks to the mana regen, which lets you spam blink. Without it you simply won't have the mana to blink consistently, which doesn't let you farm as fast (AM's greatest strength)
anyhoo - just played my first game of QoP. Didn't expect it to go well but I got DEMOLISHED. I'm half of mind that it's because I had no rune wards, no flying courier and the lag (qq I know) which let the enemy puck win mid, but still. Bad, bad game. I also want to blame the enemy lineup on just being bullshit. Puck, Bloodseeker and LS. Am I just imagining Qop being a bad pick vs them?
I also had no idea that her poison skill required me to be so close to the enemy hero..I thought you could use that from way, way far.
I probably won't ever play her again >_>
Bloodseeker is a disaster for Queen since Rupture damages you when you blink. Also, you really want one rune spot warded. Buy it yourself if you need to. Flying courier is less important. Just don't let your teammates take it if you will need it soon.
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Now that I think of it, which champions are good junglers in D2? I know Chen can be pretty good. But that's it
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enchantress bloodseeker enigma axe lifestealer prophet dark seer lone druid off the top of my head, there are plenty more who can, but many shouldnt. Many heroes CAN jungle, but only a small handful are capable of hitting the benchmark of level 6 by the 6 minute mark.
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Dark seer and weaver are definitely top offlaners, sometimes you'll see "mid heroes" with escape on offlane too, mainly puck comes to mind.
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On July 30 2013 03:28 Oukka wrote:
Dark seer and weaver are definitely top offlaners, sometimes you'll see "mid heroes" with escape on offlane too, mainly puck comes to mind.
Weaver is probably the single best offlaner due to his amazing ability to survive any trilane you can throw at him (if you're good, he can even end up fucking them over quite bad. I've seen weavers get firstblood and triple kill..not good players of course, but still)
DS is a good offlaner due to his ion shell letting him get farm fairly easily. The ability to give yourself max speed for a couple of seconds doesn't hurt either. He also wrecks badly in 1v1 offlane situations if the supports ends up leaving the carry.
Sylla is very decent offlaner due to his bear being near unkillable in the early levels, and by the time they do enough damage to it he can just resummon. He requires a lot of practice to get right tho.
Queen of pain, Puck, Mirana and Windrunner are all good offlaners due to their good escapes, but don't expect them to get any farm if they're up against a trilane. They'll be leeching xp and hope not to die at best.
Bounty and Brood are a tough one. On one side they are very good offlaners due to their invisibility, obviously. The problem lies if the enemy decides to just cover the lane and woods with sentry wards, you suddenly have nowhere to go and no escape ability. You'll most likely just end up trying to find a spot to hide and leech xp. I personally don't think they're good against trilanes at all.
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The only heroes who are actually good at jungling are enigma, enchantress, nature's prophet, chen, darkseer, batrider.
Carries like lifestealer, skeleton king, troll, lone druid, lycan, ursa, and doom are capable of jungling (bloodseeker is even worse at it than these guys, I don't consider him to even be a bad jungler), but should never do it except in a 5carry lineup (ie worst case scenario in low level pubs, or most-hillarious-case scenario in all-random).
Timber can jungle too, which could maybe be useful if he ever becomes a standard offlaner (the way ds/bat/furion jungle if their solo lane is obnoxious).
There are some risky/silly jungling methods that allow Luna and Magnus (dire only) to jungle as well. https://www.youtube.com/user/locKifiedDotA?feature=watch
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United States47024 Posts
Axe is a good jungler, he's just not a good *hero*. Excepting going against a melee mid or a cheese offensive trilane (won't happen in pubs), he should be jungling.
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On July 30 2013 02:53 Incognoto wrote:
Now that I think of it, which champions are good junglers in D2? I know Chen can be pretty good. But that's it
Any hero that can use some sort of meatshield. Enchantress and Chen can mind-control, Nature's Prophet and Enigma can spawn minions, Lone Droid has the definition of a meatshield.
Any hero that has some sort of lifesteal early on - Bloodseeker, Lifestealer
Heroes with great, cheap AoE - Axe, Dark Seer, Batrider, probably forgetting someone.
and Ursa, for some reason.
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About offlaners-- I haven't seen a sylla successfully offlane vs a trilane since the bear gold nerf, are people still running that?
Weaver is definitely amazing, but even he can get shut down by aggressive supports with a sentry if the carry freezes the lane properly without a pull. SD + a stun, especially with an exort invoker mid is pretty terrifying for weaver, as is gyro/bane/kotl, and similar lanes.
Clockwerk is my second favourite offlaner behind Weaver. He's just really hard to kill thanks to cogs, can get gold with flare, and can if you time it perfectly block the enemy pull-camp from stacking with flare as well.
DS, bat, furion are good offlaners because they can go jungle if the lane is too obnoxious (and just tp back if they push it).
I maintain that timber is a decent offlaner, but no one plays him. Disruptor makes him really sad though...
Brood is a decent offlaner because she can clear trees around the lane with web to keep vision of the supports. If the lane is especially obnoxious she can use web to camp a rune or something. She could also jungle with the help of the allied supports-- with a just a bit of help she can get a ton of spiders, then she can farm the pull-camp while her spiders + the supports farm other stacked camps, and everyone gets farm/xp. Her webs make stacking really easy, and she can personally stack two camps at once with good use of web and her nuke (have to nuke the camp under web, and physically pull the one not webbed).
I've never tried it, but I've been told that spirit breaker can actually offlane respectably by leveling his speed aura, deliberately pushing the lane and then getting xp on the rebound. Then at level 3 he just ganks for the rest of the game. I don't know if this is still possible vs a competent trilane though.
Is magnus still used as an offlaner ever (vs a competent trilane)? Skewer can clear some trees for vision, at least in dire-- radiant treeline might be too wide, not sure.
Puck and windrunner are hit or miss in offlane. I don't have a lot of experience with them, so I can't say much. Is tinker still a good offlaner with march builds?
If sylla is still a viable offlaner, could you offlane with a chen or enchantress, and pull the wave with a big creep?
Oh, and enigma and lich can offlane because they deny allied-creeps pushing the lane towards themselves automatically. Thus the enemy supports HAVE to stack and pull or the lane is guaranteed in your favour, and if they aren't being aggressive in lane you can get a bit of xp between pulls. Even if you don't get much your carry is at least guaranteed to get more than theirs.
But yeah I think BH and Clinkz just can't get anything out of a decent trilane.
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On July 30 2013 03:42 Excludos wrote:
Bounty and Brood are a tough one. On one side they are very good offlaners due to their invisibility, obviously. The problem lies if the enemy decides to just cover the lane and woods with sentry wards, you suddenly have nowhere to go and no escape ability. You'll most likely just end up trying to find a spot to hide and leech xp. I personally don't think they're good against trilanes at all.
BH generally needs levels more than items though (so long as you aren't playing carry BH) so he can buy counter wards himself to deward his lane I suppose. With Jinada he can easily sneak in the last hits he needs, or in an even tougher lane use shuriken. So long as you hit a good level 7 timing and can start ganking you'd probably be ok.
Shadow Walk also disjoints giving him some survivability. (I think at least)
He's probably not great vs strong tri's who also ward, but I think he can handle some level of warding so long as you don't try to play carry BH.
By the way there's a nice guide on offlane BH on these forums: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=388990¤tpage=2
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On July 30 2013 04:01 Nightmarjoo wrote:
I've never tried it, but I've been told that spirit breaker can actually offlane respectably by leveling his speed aura, deliberately pushing the lane and then getting xp on the rebound. Then at level 3 he just ganks for the rest of the game. I don't know if this is still possible vs a competent trilane though.
Is magnus still used as an offlaner ever (vs a competent trilane)? Skewer can clear some trees for vision, at least in dire-- radiant treeline might be too wide, not sure.
If sylla is still a viable offlaner, could you offlane with a chen or enchantress, and pull the wave with a big creep?
Spirit Breaker can be a decent off laner, but not in the way you described. I heard the same thing with the speed aura, but I tested it myself, and all it does is act as if the enemy safe lane poorly blocked their lane creeps. So it really just sets you up for two supports to walk around and demolish you. And you can't ward the pull camp or rune because you need to walk with the creep wave. The way he works is that he just has such a high base health that he can just man mode some harass. And you get Charge at level 1 for an escape (Charge a different lane). Of course, if it is some really kill oriented tri-lane, it won't be easy....but I mean, no off laner has a good time versus a really kill oriented tri laner. Spirit Breaker is doable (especially in pubs...even versus strong killing dual lanes) because your base health should be able to help you get those first few levels, even if it's late, and if you have a proper aggressive team, you literally leave the lane and just gank everytime Charge is off cooldown. Hell, I'm sure level 2 ganking is possible if the situation is really bad. This is how I've been doing it anyways, but I think I have the right idea.
Magnus isn't used to tri lane anymore because of the Skewer range nerf. He used to just be an amazing off laner because of max range Skewer at level 1. Now that it was nerfed, he is just a much better mid. And now they nerfed his ult, so no free kills at level 6 lol.
The problem with Chen/Enchantress offlane is that the creeps you convert aren't as tanky as the Spirit Bear and you'll actually need to go in the jungle to get the creep, then creep pull, making the first few waves impossible. Enchantress and Chen are also just so good in a "tri lane." They're ganks are so powerful that you're effectively making your duo safe lane a tri lane.
Also about BH, Brood, and other invis off laners. Sometimes it is impossible to lane when they get Sentries, so you typically just need to try to leech experience off of their pulls. And notice the time they placed the Sentry to get a few free waves when you know it's down.
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It was said before and I will say it again, no hero can survive solo offlane if the enemies have a proper trilane and really want to kill you.
For the times when the enemies make it survivable, batrider and weaver do the best job at escaping(might forget someone).
4 seconds instant invis and amx move speed is very handy. Batrider can just fly out of bounds, where no other hero can walk.
I must make an honorable mention of clinkz though. If you play clinkz and somehow reach lvl 6 on the offlane, you can catch up in farm pretty well just by going to the jungle and death pacting a big creep for instant ~500 hp and a ~50 damage buff for 35 seconds. With that you can even jungle decently from that point on.
Considering the jungling hero question, every hero can jungle. It's just that most heroes are way too slow at it to be viable. A couple of years ago I even found a way to jungle Dragon Knight decently. Meaning still slower than the good ones(enigma, furion, chen enchantress), but comparable to axe, ursa or a lifestealer that doesn't get attackspeed asap.
Fuck if I know how exactly I did that.
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On July 30 2013 08:04 Mataza wrote:
It was said before and I will say it again, no hero can survive solo offlane if the enemies have a proper trilane and really want to kill you.
False. Honestly, against a decent team, if you die once to an aggressive defensive trilane, everyone will get tps and wipe them as soon as they dive.
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On July 30 2013 08:36 makmeatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:04 Mataza wrote:
It was said before and I will say it again, no hero can survive solo offlane if the enemies have a proper trilane and really want to kill you. False. Honestly, against a decent team, if you die once to an aggressive defensive trilane, everyone will get tps and wipe them as soon as they dive.
Goodluck getting 2~3min tps from your allies....
Smoke ganks behind towers happen too you know, and most of those are at around 3min with a single pull and a siege creep...
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On July 30 2013 08:36 makmeatt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:04 Mataza wrote:
It was said before and I will say it again, no hero can survive solo offlane if the enemies have a proper trilane and really want to kill you. False. Honestly, against a decent team, if you die once to an aggressive defensive trilane, everyone will get tps and wipe them as soon as they dive.
You mean *if* you have a decent team on your side.
That is if they even dive you. They don't actually need to kill you.
Perfectly possible to zone someone out of xp range completely without even seeing the enemy tower. This happens in pro games, with professional offlane players and they still abandon offlane because they can't even get experience out of the offlane against a properly played trilane.
Yeah, I phrased that improperly. Technically, if you stay behind your tower far away from xp range, you are surviving in offlane. But I wouldn't call it being in a lane if you cannot get any xp or gold.
"No hero can get reasonable experience as solo offlane and survive if the enemies have a proper trilane and really want to suppress you."
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On July 30 2013 03:44 Nightmarjoo wrote:The only heroes who are actually good at jungling are enigma, enchantress, nature's prophet, chen, darkseer, batrider. Carries like lifestealer, skeleton king, troll, lone druid, lycan, ursa, and doom are capable of jungling (bloodseeker is even worse at it than these guys, I don't consider him to even be a bad jungler), but should never do it except in a 5carry lineup (ie worst case scenario in low level pubs, or most-hillarious-case scenario in all-random). Timber can jungle too, which could maybe be useful if he ever becomes a standard offlaner (the way ds/bat/furion jungle if their solo lane is obnoxious). There are some risky/silly jungling methods that allow Luna and Magnus (dire only) to jungle as well. https://www.youtube.com/user/locKifiedDotA?feature=watch
bs is a better jungler than skeleton king, skeleton king leeches much less.
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No one mentionned doom? He's a good jungler if the early game is just a farm fest with 0 gang, he's sometimes seen playing there in progames.
edit : oh he mentioned doom, but that's seen in progames (last pick, jsut use his ulti to counter the other team team last pick)
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United States47024 Posts
On July 30 2013 09:20 nojok wrote:
No one mentionned doom? He's a good jungler if the early game is just a farm fest with 0 gang, he's sometimes seen playing there in progames.
This is the part that makes him bad in pubs even though he can be used in pro games.
The expectation as a jungler in pub games should be that you have to influence the game early if you expect to carry. It's very often that if you don't gank and just farm, all 3 of your lanes will lose and the game will be out of your control by the time you leave the jungle.
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Is weaver seriously considered that good a 1v3 offlaner?
Like, I know shukuchi is a good skill, but he's so, so squishy. He's still relying on a long (at low levels) cooldown short-duration invis to leech xp, and if they bring detection and ever catch him out he's so fragile he'll die before the chainstun wears off.
He ends up in a situation where he can't move in to leech xp because sentry/dust+stun, but also can't take the bat/NP/DS route and go jungle to catch up. He also doesn't offer much except some -armour when he's badly behind.
1v2 or 1v1 sure, he owns, but 1v3 I don't feel like his escape (or any hero's escape, for that matter) is good enough to justify his fragility, his inability to jungle and his desperate need for levels.
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On July 30 2013 12:36 Belisarius wrote:
Is weaver seriously considered that good a 1v3 offlaner?
Like, I know shukuchi is a good skill, but he's so, so squishy. He's still relying on a long (at low levels) cooldown short-duration invis to leech xp, and if they bring detection and ever catch him out he's so fragile he'll die before the chainstun wears off.
He ends up in a situation where he can't move in to leech xp because sentry/dust+stun, but also can't take the bat/NP/DS route and go jungle to catch up. He also doesn't offer much except some -armour when he's badly behind.
1v2 or 1v1 sure, he owns, but 1v3 I don't feel like his escape (or any hero's escape, for that matter) is good enough to justify his fragility, his inability to jungle and his desperate need for levels.
It's not just the invisibility of Shukuchi. It's the invisibility + max move speed. The max move speed is awesome.
Not to mention, with a point in germinate, Weaver can sneak in last hits easily.
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EPT
