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On July 20 2013 04:22 Fealthas wrote:
If im playing night stalker, is it worth it to pick up a stout shield to make dives easier? On slark, is RoA or medallion better as an early game item? I like RoA for the mana and the dmg, and it gives similar tankiness to MoC. Lots of people say medallion is better, though I don't really understand why.
You can purge the -armor debuff with Dark Pact, so you get the bonus armor from the MoC and you get to reduce your target's armor (this makes your early game ganks a lot more brutal, especially against supports). I don't usually get a MoC on Slark, as I really like Drums and after picking those up I like to get onto bigger items like a BKB or an Orchid, but MoC is a pretty good item.
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To answer the previous question, yes a stout shield pickup on night stalker is worth it. Even if only to mitigate harass in the lane. The help with diving is certainly there, but arguably the harass mitigation is even better.
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when i mid with ns 3x branch 1 tango rush bottle and never really pick up a stout afterwards since you can buy other things with that gold like a circlet or gauntlet that builds into other things. but if im laning ns for whatever reason i would get a stout and skip bottle.
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On the topic of OD, is there anyone who CAN beat him mid? Silencer comes to mind. Maybe Skywrath Mage because of his long range nuke? Sniper/Drow because they don't really need mana? Maybe LD too but I've never seen him go mid.
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Sniper/Drow lose because of their damage and attack animations respectively. Silencer probably comes down to how frequently OD's passive procs. Sylla is ok. Skywrath probably works, but I haven't run that matchup before. I usually just see people running dual lanes mid vs OD now, carry + support these days anyway.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 20 2013 05:51 aintz wrote:
when i mid with ns 3x branch 1 tango rush bottle and never really pick up a stout afterwards since you can buy other things with that gold like a circlet or gauntlet that builds into other things. but if im laning ns for whatever reason i would get a stout and skip bottle.
Stout is also good mid if you started with random gold, seeing as there's not really a good reason to start directly with the Bottle in that case.
On July 20 2013 05:56 B1nary wrote:
On the topic of OD, is there anyone who CAN beat him mid? Silencer comes to mind. Maybe Skywrath Mage because of his long range nuke? Sniper/Drow because they don't really need mana? Maybe LD too but I've never seen him go mid.
Skywrath has a chance at a solo kill at level 2/3, if he blows that he's done. Same with Batrider. Enchantress is stronger at level 1/2, but really has to snowball that advantage to win.
Viper can win, but it's not easy. Broodmother wins if she gets to Soul Ring before she runs out of mana. Bear wins as long as he keeps enough mana to resummon his Bear.
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In approximate order of threat (note that some of these aren't really mid heroes, they are just good at 1v1ing):
Skywrath, brood, LD, silencer, batrider, enchantress, and I probably missed a couple.
Skywrath and LD are just really good 1v1. LD is a bit easier to beat while the bug that lets you reduce bonus int from items still exists (in dota 1, having 4 branches means you have enough max mana to cast bear no matter how many times you get astraled).
Brood can still spam spiderlings by using soul ring. In a 1v1 where it is banned, I don't think she offers a real threat though.
Silencer is really annoying because you only have one spell. Whenever you astral him, he CotS and last words you. Other people seem to have less trouble with this match up than me, and I haven't played the matchup enough since the changes to get the feel of it, so take my words with a grain of salt.
Batrider has good kill threat at level 1/2. If bat can either get a kill or force the OD too far behind, he can sometimes ride the advantage to victory.
Ench can use untouchable to come ahead on any right click harass. Creeps don't hit her, and she has quite long range. She has to push this advantage in the early levels though, as eventually astral will suck out too much damage from her.
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On July 20 2013 05:56 B1nary wrote:
On the topic of OD, is there anyone who CAN beat him mid? Silencer comes to mind. Maybe Skywrath Mage because of his long range nuke? Sniper/Drow because they don't really need mana? Maybe LD too but I've never seen him go mid.
Drow is actually fairly decent vs OD mid. She can deal a lot of rightclick damage and doesn't really need the int to do so. Its not "win" in the sense that she will get a ton of kills and drive OD out of lane, but she will get decent farm.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 20 2013 06:34 LAN-f34r wrote:
Silencer is really annoying because you only have one spell. Whenever you astral him, he CotS and last words you. Other people seem to have less trouble with this match up than me, and I haven't played the matchup enough since the changes to get the feel of it, so take my words with a grain of salt.
Silencer is a matchup that probably requires Bottle from the OD, but once he gets it, Silencer just doesn't get anything because he can't outharass Bottle-crowing, and the damage difference means OD gets every lasthit and Silencer gets none.
If he's going to win, he has to win it before OD's Bottle, except his level 1-3 bullying ability also isn't as good as Bat, Skywrath, or Enchantress.
On July 20 2013 06:41 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 05:56 B1nary wrote:
On the topic of OD, is there anyone who CAN beat him mid? Silencer comes to mind. Maybe Skywrath Mage because of his long range nuke? Sniper/Drow because they don't really need mana? Maybe LD too but I've never seen him go mid. Drow is actually fairly decent vs OD mid. She can deal a lot of rightclick damage and doesn't really need the int to do so. Its not "win" in the sense that she will get a ton of kills and drive OD out of lane, but she will get decent farm.
Drow's too much weaker at level 1/2 because OD's base stats are categorically better than hers (in particular, OD has 5+ base armor while Drow has almost none). Obviously if she just sneaks XP to level 6 she's fine, but she gets bullied way too hard at level 1/2.
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Thanks for the responses. Follow up question:
How should you respond if you facing OD as a normal mid hero, say, Magnus, Puck, QoP, or TA? I imagine you should try to get a bottle, get the runes, and gank top/bottom more instead of trying to stay in lane and getting very little CS. In pro games, it seems like they just let him stay in lane and farm a mek and just focus on winning the other lanes.
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On July 20 2013 06:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 06:34 LAN-f34r wrote:
Silencer is really annoying because you only have one spell. Whenever you astral him, he CotS and last words you. Other people seem to have less trouble with this match up than me, and I haven't played the matchup enough since the changes to get the feel of it, so take my words with a grain of salt.
Silencer is a matchup that probably requires Bottle from the OD, but once he gets it, Silencer just doesn't get anything because he can't outharass Bottle-crowing, and the damage difference means OD gets every lasthit and Silencer gets none. If he's going to win, he has to win it before OD's Bottle, except his level 1-3 bullying ability also isn't as good as Bat, Skywrath, or Enchantress. Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 06:41 Excludos wrote:On July 20 2013 05:56 B1nary wrote:
On the topic of OD, is there anyone who CAN beat him mid? Silencer comes to mind. Maybe Skywrath Mage because of his long range nuke? Sniper/Drow because they don't really need mana? Maybe LD too but I've never seen him go mid. Drow is actually fairly decent vs OD mid. She can deal a lot of rightclick damage and doesn't really need the int to do so. Its not "win" in the sense that she will get a ton of kills and drive OD out of lane, but she will get decent farm. Drow's too much weaker at level 1/2 because OD's base stats are categorically better than hers (in particular, OD has 5+ base armor while Drow has almost none). Obviously if she just sneaks XP to level 6 she's fine, but she gets bullied way too hard at level 1/2.
Well, that 1v1 chinese tournament the other day showed that 1v1's can be a (15-30 minute) marathon rather than a sprint, and there were a few comebacks from behind.
I think there was a chinese team that ran a shadowfiend against an OD mid, and he just went passives, and once he got enough damage he dominated.
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razer can do decent versus OD, obviously maxing static and passive. I think Lone Druid and Razer is my best beat to challenge him with. Huskar might be able to be annoying but he doesnt fit anywhere into a real game..
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pretty sure necro/aura/stats sf hybrid does well or wins... im the kind of guy that skips raze and yolo 2-3 shots ppl early on, i remember someone did the maths somewhere and sf with max aura / necro had about the same or more dps than a drow of the same lvl ~8
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On July 20 2013 08:31 ChunderBoy wrote:
pretty sure necro/aura/stats sf hybrid does well or wins... im the kind of guy that skips raze and yolo 2-3 shots ppl early on, i remember someone did the maths somewhere and sf with max aura / necro had about the same or more dps than a drow of the same lvl ~8
I'm fairly certain that's a suboptimal way to play SF. Raze allows for a lot more farm, and also does decent burst damage. I suppose skipping raze might work at low level where players would always miss with it anyway, but at that level anything could work.
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On July 20 2013 08:48 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 08:31 ChunderBoy wrote:
pretty sure necro/aura/stats sf hybrid does well or wins... im the kind of guy that skips raze and yolo 2-3 shots ppl early on, i remember someone did the maths somewhere and sf with max aura / necro had about the same or more dps than a drow of the same lvl ~8 I'm fairly certain that's a suboptimal way to play SF. Raze allows for a lot more farm, and also does decent burst damage. I suppose skipping raze might work at low level where players would always miss with it anyway, but at that level anything could work.
That's not the point, you have almost no mana to raze against an OD. But an SF with souls easily outdamages even an OD, and OD has no spells so it's not good if he can't trade.
Fnatic vs navi, they sent luna vs an OD mid. Did well, makes sense.
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Sending an SF vs an OD is asking to lose though, do you realize without raze you cant get a single last hit vs an OD in lane ever? you'll have 40-50 dmg and he'll have 70
I'm not surprised that no raze sf has similar dps stats to a drow, but sf with raze has similar dps stats to a lina. Which would you rather have at level 8?
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Aura/necro won't get souls vs OD. WIth no raze you can't jungle for souls, and you can't get any last hits with your pathetic damage vs ~56 starting damage that grows quite quickly.
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best bet is pick a melee and try ur best to get lh and exp. gtfo the lane when od is 6 cuz you will explode.
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Here's a question: what am I supposed to do with Null Tailsman? Every build I've seen says you should get one or two of them for the heroes I'm using currently. But the only item it upgrades into is Dagon and none of the guides mention building this item.
Is it assumed that I sell it late game?
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United States47024 Posts
You usually just sell it. It's usually made back its worth in early-game lasthitting and fighting stats.
That said, you generally don't buy two unless you're somewhat behind. or you're playing a build that is going for something big you have to save for and needs to pad its stats until it gets there (most if these builds are bad in the current game to begin with).
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EPT
