EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 527
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jrkirby
United States1510 Posts
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On July 18 2013 06:21 jrkirby wrote: If two opponents die at the same time (i.e. fire killing blows before the other's hit), only one of them will get experience from the kill right? So it's advantageous usually to trade death for death if you die just a fraction of a second later, right? Well, assuming the two heroes that are dying are of similar farm priority, similar level, and are affected by the death time in the same way. As always, depends on the situation. | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
At lvl 1 and 2 clinkz just has to trade farm. Since Clinkz is safe lane and can just stay behind creeps, I don't think WR has any real opportunity to pressure clinkz. But each time clinkz hits a level up for fire arrows, things get a bit worse for windrunner. When no creep is in last hit range, clinkz can choose to trade hits. With just fire arrows, clinkz wins. WR can use windrun, but clinkz can use windwalk in response. WR's windrun has 15 seconds cooldown and only lasts for 3-5 seconds. So while windrun is on cooldown, WR is open to harass. Which is the majority of the time. At lvl 6 wr gets nothing, but clinkz gets a really good skill. She would need to land really good powershots or shackles to compete in the lane. So in short, windrunner is strongest at lvl 1 and lvl 2 and should try to gain an advantage early. The longer the lane goes, the more difficult it will become for her. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
But this is true of a lot of heroes. Due to the way Clinkz's ult HP gain works, level 6 is a powerful timing for him in any solo matchup. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8913 Posts
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
Windrunner and Clinkz start with 15 strength each, and the difference at lvl 5 (625 vs. 549) can be overcome just by having power treads. Whether or not windrunner's skills connect is a question of player ability and I consider it harder to hit them then to evade them. I remember old empire(when they still had funn1k and goblak) running solo safe clinkz multiple times when they knew it would be a 1v1 matchup. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On July 18 2013 08:23 evilfatsh1t wrote: at lvl 5 wr's shackle is hardly long enough. even if you land it perfectly, you cant channel a full dmg powershot without the shackle breaking first. if you opt to max powershot by 7 shackle only really becomes relevant from lvl 8. What? A successful shackle lasts 1.5 seconds at 1st rank. Powershot does full damage after 1 second (0.3 cast point + the spell does full damage at any point past 0.7s channel time, even though it channels up to 1s), plus takes a small fraction of a second to reach the target if it's a really long range one. Given that it generally becomes obvious that a shackle is going to latch some fractions of a second before the projectile connects (so you can start casting Powershot before the Shackle stun time even starts), it's more than enough time to channel a full damage Powershot. Hell, better WR players can often hit full Powershots without Shackle even latching (just the 0.75s ministun) with only a minor amount of prediction if you cancel the last 0.3s channel properly. On July 18 2013 08:48 Mataza wrote: I consider this a minor detail really. Windrunner and Clinkz start with 15 strength each, and the difference at lvl 5 (625 vs. 549) can be overcome just by having power treads. The difference is that Windrunner pretty much should never die because she always has the option to turn and run since Clinkz won't kill her through Windrun, while Clinkz actually does has to be mindful in any situation that might involve trading down to less than half HP. I don't think this wins the lane for WR necessarily, but it's something Clinkz has to be careful about--and conversely something which the Windrunner player CAN win the lane on in the context of a pub where both sides are making a lot of mistakes. On July 18 2013 08:48 Mataza wrote: I remember old empire(when they still had funn1k and goblak) running solo safe clinkz multiple times when they knew it would be a 1v1 matchup. They'd also typically pool him. Like I said, I still think it's hard for WR--I was just contesting Comeh's ridiculous claim that Clinkz could just come to lane, stand on the far side of the creeps and zone Windrunner from level 1. Even without the risk of getting ganked, Clinkz couldn't play the lane like that, even if he was pooled. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
On July 18 2013 09:48 aintz wrote: why does everyone besides yango think wr vs clinkz is heavily clinkz favored? its really not and i can prove it to you by 1v1ing, i'll be wr and you can be clinkz. I will take you on that. TL needs more grudge matches. | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
Any checklists I can run through to help make the decision? | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8913 Posts
On July 18 2013 08:57 TheYango wrote: What? A successful shackle lasts 1.5 seconds at 1st rank. Powershot does full damage after 1 second (0.3 cast point + the spell does full damage at any point past 0.7s channel time, even though it channels up to 1s), plus takes a small fraction of a second to reach the target if it's a really long range one. Given that it generally becomes obvious that a shackle is going to latch some fractions of a second before the projectile connects (so you can start casting Powershot before the Shackle stun time even starts), it's more than enough time to channel a full damage Powershot. Hell, better WR players can often hit full Powershots without Shackle even latching (just the 0.75s ministun) with only a minor amount of prediction if you cancel the last 0.3s channel properly. The difference is that Windrunner pretty much should never die because she always has the option to turn and run since Clinkz won't kill her through Windrun, while Clinkz actually does has to be mindful in any situation that might involve trading down to less than half HP. I don't think this wins the lane for WR necessarily, but it's something Clinkz has to be careful about--and conversely something which the Windrunner player CAN win the lane on in the context of a pub where both sides are making a lot of mistakes. They'd also typically pool him. Like I said, I still think it's hard for WR--I was just contesting Comeh's ridiculous claim that Clinkz could just come to lane, stand on the far side of the creeps and zone Windrunner from level 1. Even without the risk of getting ganked, Clinkz couldn't play the lane like that, even if he was pooled. you speak under the assumption that everyone has bot-like reactions and that people have the ability to accurately pinpoint the exact amount of time it takes to do everything. an average player will not land a full powered powershot on a lvl 1 shackle because they will either react too slow or cut the powershot too early. yes people do get kills off the ministun only, however most of the time you need various things to go your way. for example, the shackle has to travel a fair distance so you can channel your powershot while the shackle is travelling. also in those situations, its either you shoot and you kill, or you miss and your opponent runs back to base (in other words, you can try for it but if you fail you have nothing to lose). in a trading situation, you dont want to blow a whole powershot hoping to chip clinkz's hp away when you could so easily just waste the mana which could be the difference in whether u have a windwalk or not later on. dont give advice based on pure maths, because a 0.5 seconds of leeway extremely small | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
And an "average player's" skill level is generally at a place where lane matchups are near irrelevant because variation in fundamentals is far larger than how inherently favored any given matchup is. On July 18 2013 10:20 evilfatsh1t wrote: in a trading situation, you dont want to blow a whole powershot hoping to chip clinkz's hp away when you could so easily just waste the mana which could be the difference in whether u have a windwalk or not later on. What situation are you crafting here? I didn't cite Powershot in any straight-up trade. When I cited Powershot burst I was specifically citing the fact that at level 5, a Windrunner can Shackle->auto->Power and kill Clinkz from 1/3 to 1/2 HP. This doesn't even necessarily require a full Powershot, because Clinkz has only ~600 HP at that point and Powershot max damage (before reductions) is 280, meaning even a partially-charged Powershot + 1-2 autoattacks can kill him from 200-250 HP. If we're talking an "average player", then I'm pretty sure almost every lane opponent they'd play against is likely to fall for a bait where you trade down to ~100 HP, pop Windrun, and counter-kill him with Shackle->Power because he thought he could kill you without being mindful about his own HP. Obviously a good Clinkz player would know WR's burst and not trade down to the danger zone like that unless they're baiting a counter-kill in the first place, but trading down that low is a fairly frequent error made by a lot of players (in fact I would argue that you're more likely to find players that can combo Shackle->Power perfectly than you are to find players who know/manage a hero's burst that precisely) when they don't consider how strong the opposing hero's burst is, especially when they think they're winning the lane, and is a very easy way for a player to win a lane off an opponent's error in pubs. Clinkz doesn't get similar opportunities against Windrunner because Clinkz doesn't have any such burst to speak of, and Windrunner can escape from virtually any reasonable situation by activating Windrun and backing up, except when a 3rd hero is involved. | ||
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Mithhaike
Singapore2759 Posts
On July 18 2013 10:18 BoxingKangaroo wrote: Probably mostly a situational question, but when should mid go and gank other lanes? Obviously you lose farm in the time it takes to get to another lane, and the risk is not getting a kill at all. Any checklists I can run through to help make the decision? That is a hard choice to make. I have a personal checklist that i use to make decision for mid heroes,see if it helps you or people can correct me on it. I assume your using a mid hero that can gank easily (storm/qop/pudge for example) 1) Rune:- If i get a good rune (invis/haste) it's time to gank 2) Wards:- Is that side of the river warded, as in if i go and gank, would I succeed or would it be a waste of my time because the enemy can see me coming and back off. Usually you can realise if that lane's warded or not once you grab the rune and start walking towards that lane, they start backing off/change their behaviour you know that side is warded, and you should only gank it when you have invis rune/smoke or pass the 6mins mark when wards expire. Situational! 3) Importance of ganking:- Is that lane/hero going to snowball soon? Some priority ganks are required on certain lanes to help your team catch up or stop carries from free farming. However becareful as this may lead to you falling behind to the other mid and when you return to your lane you may be in trouble. The list above works like this. If (1) activates, its a go. If (2) activates(as in no wards), its a go. (3) depends on having either 1 of the list to be active before going. The intrinacy of playing mid is that every situation is different, but a simple rule of thumb is to gank at rune timings, provided there's no vision of you coming. This is because since your already at the rune spot (regardless of did you get the rune or not) you should be making use of that movement since your already there. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
gank if you can get a guaranteed kill that would not have happened otherwise this still puts you behind the opposing mid player (unless you get a double kill), but it's generally worth it | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8913 Posts
On July 18 2013 10:27 TheYango wrote: An "average player" also won't pool their safe lane solo. And an "average player's" skill level is generally at a place where lane matchups are near irrelevant because variation in fundamentals is far larger than how inherently favored any given matchup is. What situation are you crafting here? I didn't cite Powershot in any straight-up trade. When I cited Powershot burst I was specifically citing the fact that at level 5, a Windrunner can Shackle->auto->Power and kill Clinkz from 1/3 to 1/2 HP. This doesn't even necessarily require a full Powershot, because Clinkz has only ~600 HP at that point and Powershot max damage (before reductions) is 280, meaning even a partially-charged Powershot + 1-2 autoattacks can kill him from 200-250 HP. If we're talking an "average player", then I'm pretty sure almost every lane opponent they'd play against is likely to fall for a bait where you trade down to ~100 HP, pop Windrun, and counter-kill him with Shackle->Power because he thought he could kill you without being mindful about his own HP. Obviously a good Clinkz player would know WR's burst and not trade down to the danger zone like that unless they're baiting a counter-kill in the first place, but trading down that low is a fairly frequent error made by a lot of players (in fact I would argue that you're more likely to find players that can combo Shackle->Power perfectly than you are to find players who know/manage a hero's burst that precisely) when they don't consider how strong the opposing hero's burst is, especially when they think they're winning the lane, and is a very easy way for a player to win a lane off an opponent's error in pubs. Clinkz doesn't get similar opportunities against Windrunner because Clinkz doesn't have any such burst to speak of, and Windrunner can escape from virtually any reasonable situation by activating Windrun and backing up, except when a 3rd hero is involved. why are you giving an explanation of how wr beats clinkz? i never disagreed with that. i also believe wr will outlane clinkz easily. my original point was lvl 1 shackle is too short to reliably set up a full dmg powershot. my point still stands. my argument earlier with clinkz was just using clinkz as an example because thats where this discussion was brought up from. | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
But in just a few questions you can ask yourself in the game: Will I lose mid if I stay away for 2 minutes? Can I make a kill happen? Are my teammates losing lane? Will their situation in lane get better after I gank it? There are situations where ganking doesn't help you, even if you kill. There are situations where ganking does help you, even if you don't kill. It's a thing that gets easier with experience. Generally, you should try to gank pretty much whenever you get a power boost(boots finished, reached lvl 6, got an important item, reached other level important for your hero, found dd/haste rune). | ||
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Monsyphon
Canada190 Posts
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
On July 18 2013 10:01 Mataza wrote: I will take you on that. TL needs more grudge matches. http://steamcommunity.com/id/ranz/ | ||
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