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On June 28 2013 14:31 1Dhalism wrote:
i recently started playing dota, so you can imagine my elo is LOW.
One thing i really dont get is playing Axe. I absolutely destroy my lane to the extent of something like 5-0 or whatnot, but then accomplish absolutely nothing in midgame. Granted my teammates suck, but this is the only hero where i can go 5-0 and then feel absolutely no bite. Do i play it wrong? Or do does Axe lack impact without proper support?
Also whats the counter to riki? He absolutely destroys these games farm or no farm.
Are you getting Blink Dagger on Axe?
And to counter Riki, kill him early. Buy dust and kill him again when he reaches 6. Then when it is mid game and people are team fighting (5v5s), buy Sentries and place them on where you think you'll fight so you can give him a face full of stuns right when he blinks in...or instantly kill him if he is "scouting"
And my question: I tried Yango's Off Lane Spirit Breaker, and I've been doing quite well. My plan has been getting to level 3 and then just going non stop gank. However, I finally played a game against good opponents (in the other lanes) who weren't allowing me to literally charge and gank someone everytime Charge was off cooldown. What do you do when your opponents are playing really safe? I find it difficult to stay in the off lane at or after level 3 because the enemy spells can actually start killing you...and I'm talking about good lanes, like Jugg + Stunner or something. Is there something special to it, or is it just sort of a flaw in SB that he needs to be ganking constantly.
My theory is that you should have a friend or pick around another ganking hero that can TP/smoke into your lane whenever the other lanes aren't gankable because the people you're laning with will be playing a little bit more loose.
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On June 28 2013 14:18 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 13:46 Belisarius wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So chen...
When would I want a wildkin/satyr over troll/cent/ursa, and what should I be looking to do if I get them? Early game, you'd want a Wildkin/Satyr if it's your first creep (for a fast level 3 and stronger gank) or if you cannot gank any lanes (including mid and off lane) for whatever reason...bad lane control, terrible heroes, ect. You also want them early on if you're coordinating a 10-15 minute all-in push and you want to farm Mek as fast as possible. The point is that Wildkins and Satyrs are good for farming, not ganking. Also, maybe Yango can confirm this again, but I don't think stacking camps and using tornado is efficient...even from a pure farming stand point. From what he said in an earlier post, you only use it to push creeps or to use if your Wildkin is about to die (example: Your Wildkin is almost dead, you run into Ice Ogres, have Chen tank and the Wildkin tornado before replacing him with a Centaur/Ursa/Troll/Satyr/another Wildkin.) Now mid game and late game, it's a whole different ball park. Wildkins are good if you need the armor aura, Centaurs are good if you need the attack speed aura/can set up a stun (with RP or something), Trolls are good if you need to net through BKB/net in general, and Satyrs/Ursas aren't really good unless that's all you can get. You can't really be picky with creeps at this point because you typically want to get 3 decent creeps and go do shit.
Ursas are the best creeps for first blood at level 1. The stomp slows and does 150 damage, which is a lot.
Trolls are very good for pushing because, they can summon skeletons that do decent damage.
Got nothing on the Satyrs. You can spam their spell for damage, but it's a hassle.
To dominate a game with Axe after a good start, you should first be sure to go Battle Hunger first. Secondly, try to get items that help you that are not vanguard. Vanguard will be useful for 10 minutes and then turn into dead weight. Get the pieces by all mean, the vit booster especially, but do not put a vanguard together.
Axe is very strong against people who had a slow start. You can use that to bully the enemy team. But be careful, because the point when the enemies recover enough to fight back against Axe will usually be quite sudden.
In general it's not possible to win a game by yourself as Axe, though.
Itemwise be sure to get a blink dagger early, then get something for more hp(heart or similar) and probably a blademail. That is all you will need for 90% of all Axe games.
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played solo suicide WR vs CM/ShaShaman. I bought the Courier/Wards so I kinda started out in a weaker position but I got zoned out by the CM -so- hard, there was nothing I could do against frostbite.
Did I get counter-picked or could I have done something differently?
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On June 28 2013 14:31 1Dhalism wrote:
i recently started playing dota, so you can imagine my elo is LOW.
One thing i really dont get is playing Axe. I absolutely destroy my lane to the extent of something like 5-0 or whatnot, but then accomplish absolutely nothing in midgame. Granted my teammates suck, but this is the only hero where i can go 5-0 and then feel absolutely no bite. Do i play it wrong? Or do does Axe lack impact without proper support?
Also whats the counter to riki? He absolutely destroys these games farm or no farm.
axe is the type of hero that requires experience and good game sense to play him well in the midgame.
he is item dependent and requires good positioning - knowing when to initiate and when to run is key.
item choice itself is crucial as well.
i'd recommend sticking to the usual tranq/vanguard/blink/bladameil build until you get some experience how the hero plays in the midgame and from then on you can move to item builds that suit the particular game you're in.
generally speaking you should always aim for utility and tankiness though - halberd,orchid,shivas,blink,heart.
for boots you should consider threads or arcanes as well
as for riki - just counterpick with BH, easy as that
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how to counter Riki - dust/sentries/gem. I'd argue that you should get dust/sentries even if you have a BH/Slardar.
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On June 28 2013 14:31 1Dhalism wrote:
i recently started playing dota, so you can imagine my elo is LOW.
One thing i really dont get is playing Axe. I absolutely destroy my lane to the extent of something like 5-0 or whatnot, but then accomplish absolutely nothing in midgame. Granted my teammates suck, but this is the only hero where i can go 5-0 and then feel absolutely no bite. Do i play it wrong? Or do does Axe lack impact without proper support?
Also whats the counter to riki? He absolutely destroys these games farm or no farm.
You absolutely need to get some dust which will absolutely destroy riki with absolutely very little absolute team effort. That an wards where you absolutely expect a teamfight so he doesn't get an absolute jump on you.
:-)
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On June 28 2013 19:00 hooahah wrote:
how to counter Riki - dust/sentries/gem. I'd argue that you should get dust/sentries even if you have a BH/Slardar.
Especially in pubs people don't often have that kind of coordination. I play at a pretty low level, but usually its effective enough just to leave a sentry out in front of the tower in the lane that your carry is trying to farm. No sneak attack means that riki is pretty much useless.
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On June 28 2013 16:02 hooahah wrote:
played solo suicide WR vs CM/ShaShaman. I bought the Courier/Wards so I kinda started out in a weaker position but I got zoned out by the CM -so- hard, there was nothing I could do against frostbite.
Did I get counter-picked or could I have done something differently?
you didnt get counter picked per se. that dual lane will destroy any solo with the sheer amount of disables. however, if its just cm trying to zone you out rather than both of them trying to kill you, wr has the upper hand. the only problem was you had no regen because you bought the courier and wards. if you could use the full 603 gold on regen, ring of protection(or extra salve) and branches, cm cant trade hits with you because you hurt more.
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stacking creeps and clearing with tornado or satyrs is the fastest way to 6 for chen, esp on radiant since the two hard camps are so close together if you walk to the high ground next to the left hard camp
vanguard + arcanes > blink > halberd/blademail/w.e is probably the easiest axe build to play
the goal is to blink in and taunt as many heroes as possible, disengage, repeat
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On June 28 2013 14:18 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 13:46 Belisarius wrote:
So chen...
When would I want a wildkin/satyr over troll/cent/ursa, and what should I be looking to do if I get them? Early game, you'd want a Wildkin/Satyr if it's your first creep (for a fast level 3 and stronger gank) or if you cannot gank any lanes (including mid and off lane) for whatever reason...bad lane control, terrible heroes, ect. You also want them early on if you're coordinating a 10-15 minute all-in push and you want to farm Mek as fast as possible. The point is that Wildkins and Satyrs are good for farming, not ganking. Also, maybe Yango can confirm this again, but I don't think stacking camps and using tornado is efficient...even from a pure farming stand point. From what he said in an earlier post, you only use it to push creeps or to use if your Wildkin is about to die (example: Your Wildkin is almost dead, you run into Ice Ogres, have Chen tank and the Wildkin tornado before replacing him with a Centaur/Ursa/Troll/Satyr/another Wildkin.) Now mid game and late game, it's a whole different ball park. Wildkins are good if you need the armor aura, Centaurs are good if you need the attack speed aura/can set up a stun (with RP or something), Trolls are good if you need to net through BKB/net in general, and Satyrs/Ursas aren't really good unless that's all you can get. You can't really be picky with creeps at this point because you typically want to get 3 decent creeps and go do shit.
You forgot alfa wolves, 30% damage aura is insane late game. And why would you tank with chen when you use tornado? It does not aggro the creeps. I also disagree on not stacking with tornado, I like to stack the hard camp and I let the wildkin fight the medium camp alone just the time I stack, in early game before you can seriously push. Anyway you want to sack him anyway for ganking. I also find the +4 hp regen aura from satyr really good for taking T2 after you took a T1 and they really help pushing faster during mid game. My favorite combo is still 3 trolls when the ennemy team lacks of aoe, so many skeletons!! Another easy thing to do with skeletons is to send them to lead the next ennemy wave of creeps into a random neutral camp.
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He asked about only Wildkin, Satyrs, Ursas, Centaurs, and Troll creeps, so I assume he only meant early game ganking & farming stage...so I didn't go into detail about Ice Ogres, Alpha Wolves, and the strengths and weaknesses of each creep in mid game teamfights and pushes.
And the few times I use Chen to tank during tornado were in specific situations: I'm level 2 or 3 and I have a Wildkin with about 40 HP. I'm just trying to clear out jungle camps as I see them for faster farm. I come across an Ice Ogre camp. I don't want to have an Ice Ogre this early on, so I tank the Ice Ogres with Chen and have the Wildkin tornado because if the Wildkin would melee, then it'd get aggro and die in one attack. I replace the Wildkin with the next good early creep I see though.
Good idea about the skeleton though, never thought about that!
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On June 28 2013 20:28 FreeZer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 14:31 1Dhalism wrote:
i recently started playing dota, so you can imagine my elo is LOW.
One thing i really dont get is playing Axe. I absolutely destroy my lane to the extent of something like 5-0 or whatnot, but then accomplish absolutely nothing in midgame. Granted my teammates suck, but this is the only hero where i can go 5-0 and then feel absolutely no bite. Do i play it wrong? Or do does Axe lack impact without proper support?
Also whats the counter to riki? He absolutely destroys these games farm or no farm. You absolutely need to get some dust which will absolutely destroy riki with absolutely very little absolute team effort. That an wards where you absolutely expect a teamfight so he doesn't get an absolute jump on you. :-)
hahaha
in my defense it was like 2am.
thanks everyone for replying.
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On June 28 2013 14:18 Whole wrote:
The point is that Wildkins and Satyrs are good for farming, not ganking.
Now I just don't understand why people think this about big satyrs. You can get a 125 damage nuke on an 8second CD, and have enough mana to cast it six times - that's SO MUCH MORE DAMAGE than ANY level one nuke in the game has the potential to put out. If your safe lane has any sort of crowd control AT ALL you're almost guaranteed to get two of them off, making satyrs the most powerful early-game nuking creep by a long shot. Also, they have a longer range than centaurs and ursas do - while arguably the CC is more useful, a satyr is a totally great replacement for a troll or an ursa when ganking at level 1.
Also (though I realize the original was more about Chen), an Enchantress with satyr +1 is almost guaranteed a double kill first blood, as long as there are two people in the lane to kill ^^
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I think it's a better choice to use Satyrs with Enchant than with Chen. You already have a strong slow and can have two creeps at level 1-4. At level 1, Chen only has his creep. Then he only has his one creep and a nuke from 2-4. By level 5, the Satyr nuke isn't so good anymore. It's not bad for Chen, but you have to rely a lot on your allies to have a good lane and to set you up. If you're coordinated with the lane you're ganking with, by all means use the Satyr to gank.
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On June 28 2013 20:43 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2013 16:02 hooahah wrote:
played solo suicide WR vs CM/ShaShaman. I bought the Courier/Wards so I kinda started out in a weaker position but I got zoned out by the CM -so- hard, there was nothing I could do against frostbite.
Did I get counter-picked or could I have done something differently? you didnt get counter picked per se. that dual lane will destroy any solo with the sheer amount of disables. however, if its just cm trying to zone you out rather than both of them trying to kill you, wr has the upper hand. the only problem was you had no regen because you bought the courier and wards. if you could use the full 603 gold on regen, ring of protection(or extra salve) and branches, cm cant trade hits with you because you hurt more.
To expand on this, you need to abuse WRs higher base movespeed and stronger right clicks. Just kite her around and right click her. You need to run out her regen as quickly as possible. As an offlane WR I never buy courier and almost never buy wards (basically I only buy them if I am worried about ganks from a jungler like Enigma or Chen). Having an extra set of tangoes or a RoP is extremely important in a situation like that.
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Why do pros sometimes do single pulls? I often see it, especially on ixmike's stream and I've always been told you have to stack before pulling.
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On June 29 2013 03:27 InfectedGoat wrote:
Why do pros sometimes do single pulls? I often see it, especially on ixmike's stream and I've always been told you have to stack before pulling.
If you single pull, the creeps don't die, but enter the lane near the same time the other creeps get to that area so you can kind of "double up" your creep wave and have a stronger push. Or if it isn't stacked, but you need to push your wave back NOW (for a gank or w/e), you can single pull. That's what I think anyways.
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On June 29 2013 03:27 InfectedGoat wrote:
Why do pros sometimes do single pulls? I often see it, especially on ixmike's stream and I've always been told you have to stack before pulling.
More advanced players do single pulls in order to benefit from the experience and gold from killing the neutral camp. A stack + pull denies the entire creep wave but doesn't necessarily kill many neutrals so you may get less gold. A single pull (preferably with "pull continuation") helps the support develop more so as to maintain relevance in the midgame.
Maybe to expand, a simple way of looking at it is: Single pulls help your supports develop but they also often allow the enemy to develop as well. Stacked pulls don't develop your support as fast but they also starve the opponent. So it at least partially depends on your priorities.
"Continued" pulls are great for your development AND for denying your opponents but they take a long time to execute (they can end up as "full time jobs", if you will), which means that your high-early-impact supports are not having any impact but rather just farming.
It all comes down to reading what is important in each particular situation.
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you can also single pull the wave before the siege wave to push towers. or just single pull to push towers. but unless you can kill that tower or theres no hero in lane you shouldnt single pull and should just static the lane and zone the offlane hero.
however if the lane is 2v2 pull single pull is the way to go.
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As a carry are there any general rules for who you should be targetting in a teamfight? The other carry or backline squishies you can kill
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EPT
