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On March 22 2018 19:51 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 10:06 Plansix wrote:
I can see that take, I just think the movie never forced the audience to engage with how harmful that is. Sort of like how Fight Club never makes the audience engage with how shitty and terrifying fight club is. Art house films aren't made to hold your hand. The setting of 2049 in itself should make you question the arrangement of its society. It's obvious that this world is rotten to its core, and the exploitative capitalist empire that the Wallace corporation represents is at the center. It is they who wish to control the commodity that is human life, and that is why the MacGuffin is what it is in this film. Notably, all of this is done with overt religious overtones, something that should, again, signal to any critically inclined viewer that there is some exploitative and regressive at play in the social dynamic presented in the film. That Gosling's K has such a complicated and strange relationship to the women in the film is no accident. He is, after all, most attracted to an idyllic depiction of the female form in JOI, again echoing a feminist critique of the representation of women in mass media (especially advertising) that is common with our own society. I've really said all this (and more) before in my writing about the film. For further reading: https://medium.com/@esportsishype/2049-51d6c46844ceAs for Fight Club, again, if your takeaway after the ending of that film, where a disassociative psychopath executes a plan that includes mass terrorism, is that the film doesn't force you to engage with the dark side of its anarchistic answers to the banalities of capitalism and consumerism, I think the failure is not on the work itself but rather on the viewer for being uncritical about what it was that they were presented.
The problem I have with argument that it is the viewers failure is these films end up lionizing the same thing they are critiquing. Especially when they main stream commercial releases like Fight Club and Blade Runner 2049, both of which do not engage with some of the most troubling subject matter on display in their films while also seeking a wide viewership. I can say the same thing about Mad Men or wolf of wall street, both with fail to critique the shitty people the stories are about and end up glamorizing their lifestyles. At least breaking bad had the clarity to say that Walter White was a completely piece of shit and tried to force the audience to come to terms with the fact they had cheered for a monster while hating his wife for being a good person.
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Lalalaland34507 Posts
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11589 Posts
On March 22 2018 23:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 19:51 yamato77 wrote:On March 22 2018 10:06 Plansix wrote:
I can see that take, I just think the movie never forced the audience to engage with how harmful that is. Sort of like how Fight Club never makes the audience engage with how shitty and terrifying fight club is. Art house films aren't made to hold your hand. The setting of 2049 in itself should make you question the arrangement of its society. It's obvious that this world is rotten to its core, and the exploitative capitalist empire that the Wallace corporation represents is at the center. It is they who wish to control the commodity that is human life, and that is why the MacGuffin is what it is in this film. Notably, all of this is done with overt religious overtones, something that should, again, signal to any critically inclined viewer that there is some exploitative and regressive at play in the social dynamic presented in the film. That Gosling's K has such a complicated and strange relationship to the women in the film is no accident. He is, after all, most attracted to an idyllic depiction of the female form in JOI, again echoing a feminist critique of the representation of women in mass media (especially advertising) that is common with our own society. I've really said all this (and more) before in my writing about the film. For further reading: https://medium.com/@esportsishype/2049-51d6c46844ceAs for Fight Club, again, if your takeaway after the ending of that film, where a disassociative psychopath executes a plan that includes mass terrorism, is that the film doesn't force you to engage with the dark side of its anarchistic answers to the banalities of capitalism and consumerism, I think the failure is not on the work itself but rather on the viewer for being uncritical about what it was that they were presented. The problem I have with argument that it is the viewers failure is these films end up lionizing the same thing they are critiquing. Especially when they main stream commercial releases like Fight Club and Blade Runner 2049, both of which do not engage with some of the most troubling subject matter on display in their films while also seeking a wide viewership. I can say the same thing about Mad Men or wolf of wall street, both with fail to critique the shitty people the stories are about and end up glamorizing their lifestyles. At least breaking bad had the clarity to say that Walter White was a completely piece of shit and tried to force the audience to come to terms with the fact they had cheered for a monster while hating his wife for being a good person.
What do you want from a film to "engage" with its troubling subject matter?
Fight Club's ending is not a lionization of anarchist ideals. How anyone could see the end of that film as a positive note is beyond me.
Blade Runner 2049 does NOT lionize sexism, or its treatment of women. (how do you think this???)
Mad Men's Don Draper has a literal meltdown and nearly loses EVERYTHING to his alcoholism throughout the show. And that's supposed to make you want to be a sexist alcoholic?
Wolf of Wall Street is the only one I even slightly agree with, but even then, any thought beyond the surface viewing would definitely show that this guy's values are fucked.
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On March 22 2018 22:00 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 18:45 goody153 wrote:
lotgh = legend of the galactic heroes ?
well i hope the visuals are great Everything that isn't the characters looks fine from the preview. But you might as well just watch the original if you're going to watch the remake, because the remake will almost certainly be the inferior experience as far as a complete experience goes.
For some reason i can't really get into LotGH like it's not the story but the oldstyle voice-acting, music and old animation. I can't withstand watching it nowadays which is odd cause i've enjoyed crappy animation before like old dragon ball or doreimon or just anime in the 80's-90's in general
but nowadays even series like Maison Ikkoku which is practically old style which is definitely enjoyed just a few years ago. I somehow have a hard time enjoying it now
On March 22 2018 23:20 Firebolt145 wrote:
Got tickets to ESL whoo
send pics
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I dont understand how someone would think that breaking bad makes walter white look like a bad guy but mad men makes don draper look like a good guy.
If you pay any attention at all its clear draper is a scumbag from episode 1
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I seriously need to finish breaking bad. I'm like stuck in season 4 for years now
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Breaking Bad, to be honest, makes most characters look like actual human beings.
You can see that Walter is an asshole but he also has a purpose and a mission, as selfish as it becomes, there was some good in him and he actually looked for what makes him stand out from most people
It's so awesome
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On March 22 2018 23:23 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 22:00 Unleashing wrote:On March 22 2018 18:45 goody153 wrote:
lotgh = legend of the galactic heroes ?
well i hope the visuals are great Everything that isn't the characters looks fine from the preview. But you might as well just watch the original if you're going to watch the remake, because the remake will almost certainly be the inferior experience as far as a complete experience goes. For some reason i can't really get into LotGH like it's not the story but the voice-acting, music and old animation. I can't withstand watching it nowadays which is odd cause i've enjoyed crappy animation before like old dragon ball or doreimon or just anime in the 80's-90's in general but nowadays even series like Maison Ikkoku which is practically old style which is definitely enjoyed just a few years ago. I somehow have a hard time enjoying it now
But LOGH doesn't have "crappy" animation and the voice acting is top tier(To this day it's still the anime with the most unique voice actors working for it leading to a varied cast and no re-used voice actors making every single character distinct) and 99% of the music is literally just classical music, so unless you hate classical i don't understand that critique, LOGH barely has any original soundtrack. Chopin, Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky and many others make up 98% of the music used in the series, i'd make an argument that this music has stood the test of time as far as quality goes.
Plenty of anime from the 80s and 90s has stellar animation, just like a majority of anime that airs nowadays has literally garbage animation.
Watching the remake is 99% certainly just going to be an inferior experience that won't even conclude the story (with the original anime being a full adaption that took 110 episodes and 2 movies)
Hell i doubt the remake will even get to cover the truly interesting parts of the series (especially the clash of ideologies)
The new character designs also honestly just offend me. "Hey what if we took a serious space opera about war and just turned everyone into generic same-face looking pretty-boys instead of the previously unique character designs of the original"
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
These designs are an atrocity compared to the old designs.
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Fight Club ends with the main character shooting himself in the face, being fine and holding hands with a woman while music plays and the city is destroyed. They even go so far as to say the buildings are empty to try and convince the audience that no one died in the bombing. It has to be one of the most toothless endings to a film about cult run by a charismatic monster who wants to destroy people’s lives. But it’s ok because he cured his personality disorder with a 9 mm. The man literally threatens someone’s life to force them to go back to college and acts like that is a good thing. Or it never even offers to possibility that threatening the store clerk causes him to live a life of fear. Mad Men does the same thing. It claims to critique the era, but ends on yet another hopeful note that maybe it all works out for the sexist asshole.
My problem with Blade Runner is I can’t tell if it is intentional or not. I cannot tell if the treatment of women in the film is saying something about capitalism views women or if the director trying to tell a cyberpunk story and naked ladies dying is part of that.
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I'm glad that GD isn't discussing sad shit today but just movies/anime/etc
On March 22 2018 23:32 Unleashing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 23:23 goody153 wrote:On March 22 2018 22:00 Unleashing wrote:On March 22 2018 18:45 goody153 wrote:
lotgh = legend of the galactic heroes ?
well i hope the visuals are great Everything that isn't the characters looks fine from the preview. But you might as well just watch the original if you're going to watch the remake, because the remake will almost certainly be the inferior experience as far as a complete experience goes. For some reason i can't really get into LotGH like it's not the story but the voice-acting, music and old animation. I can't withstand watching it nowadays which is odd cause i've enjoyed crappy animation before like old dragon ball or doreimon or just anime in the 80's-90's in general but nowadays even series like Maison Ikkoku which is practically old style which is definitely enjoyed just a few years ago. I somehow have a hard time enjoying it now But LOGH doesn't have "crappy" animation and the voice acting is top tier(To this day it's still the anime with the most unique voice actors working for it leading to a varied cast and no re-used voice actors making every single character distinct) and 99% of the music is literally just classical music, so unless you hate classical i don't understand that critique, LOGH barely has any original soundtrack. Chopin, Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky and many others make up 98% of the music used in the series, i'd make an argument that this music has stood the test of time as far as quality goes. Plenty of anime from the 80s and 90s has stellar animation, just like a majority of anime that airs nowadays has literally garbage animation. Watching the remake is 99% certainly just going to be an inferior experience that won't even conclude the story (with the original anime being a full adaption that took 110 episodes and 2 movies) Hell i doubt the remake will even get to cover the truly interesting parts of the series (especially the clash of ideologies) The new character designs also honestly just offend me. "Hey what if we took a serious space opera about war and just turned everyone into generic same-face looking pretty-boys instead of the previously unique character designs of the original" + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +These designs are an atrocity compared to the old designs.
I'm not really an animation expert or somebody who works on the animation industry so my opinion might not be reliable but it does not look great to me.
I don't hate classical music nor do i particularly liked them when i tried listening to them(i had a weird phase where i went from listening to metals into raps into classical music into just about anything until i ended up nowadays where i just listen to whatever song i like regardless of the genre) but it's certainly not the type of music that would hype watching something.
About the voice-acting well it has plenty of characters but i don't really care about varied voice-acting but more of the voice-acting that carries "weight". If you know what i mean but i guess that also partly if i was entranced with the story.
It just confirms me more that i probably don't like the combination of it all. Anyways that's just really me
Just wondering why would it not cover the full scope of LotGH's story ? The length of remake or the amount of episodes they are gonna spend on it ?
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idk who this idiot on the dreamleague couch is but pleasee get him out of there
also its mean to glue monster cans to ppls hands
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For me Fight Club is mostly a commentary on masculinity and the expectations, insecurities and stereotypes that go with it. There's also the whole thing about the anti-corporate terrorist turning his followers into a sort of anti-corporation. It's still a good movie, especially when you watch it for the first time.
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On March 22 2018 23:24 PassiveAce wrote:
I dont understand how someone would think that breaking bad makes walter white look like a bad guy but mad men makes don draper look like a good guy.
If you pay any attention at all its clear draper is a scumbag from episode 1
You would be amazed at the number of people that think Don is totally awesome, well dress and just gets what he wants. Breaking Bad ends with a less than perfect attempt to make the audience engage with the idea that they wrong to cheer for Walter White.
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i mean they basically spell it out in the end that walter is the bad guy but i think most ppl still dont agree
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How would one make a logical conclusion that a guy who makes and sells meth is a good guy?? Badass, maybe, in his own way, but good?
(I haven't watched the show)
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On March 22 2018 23:43 PoulsenB wrote:
For me Fight Club is mostly a commentary on masculinity and the expectations, insecurities and stereotypes that go with it. There's also the whole thing about the anti-corporate terrorist turning his followers into a sort of anti-corporation. It's still a good movie, especially when you watch it for the first time.
I agree with this take on the film. I assume that the original ending had a much harsher take on the entire store, much like the book, but was softened up due to the mass market release and studio.
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+ Show Spoiler [LOGH stuff] +On March 22 2018 23:42 goody153 wrote:
I'm not really an animation expert or somebody who works on the animation industry so my opinion might not be reliable but it does not look great to me. You're entitled to hold that opinion but the animation is good, it's fluid and the designs are consistent. I'm not sure what else you'd want from the animation department, if you don't like the art style that's something entirely different but the animation itself is good. So calling it 'crappy' animation is honestly a bit offensive to the genuinely good animation the show has. On March 22 2018 23:42 goody153 wrote:I don't hate classical music nor do i particularly liked them when i tried listening to them(i had a weird phase where i went from listening to metals into raps into classical music into just about anything until i ended up nowadays where i just listen to whatever song i like regardless of the genre) but it's certainly not the type of music that would hype watching something. Hype? The show isn't about hype, it's a space opera with a focus on war and the clashing of political ideologies. That's exactly why classical music fits the show great, when space ships are quietly flying through space classical music is a great fit that just sets the mood. On March 22 2018 23:42 goody153 wrote:About the voice-acting well it has plenty of characters but i don't really care about varied voice-acting but more of the voice-acting that carries "weight". If you know what i mean but i guess that also partly if i was entranced with the story. How does the voice acting in LOGH not carry weight? Like give me some examples here. I mean hell, a big chunk of the voice actors that worked on LOGH are still voicing characters to this day, you've probably watched plenty of shows with them that aired in the past 5 years. What makes their performance from back then not carry weight? Hell you like "Your Name" right? I know of at least one voice actor from the original LOGH also voiced a character in that film, maybe more, i don't really care to look that shit up. The voice acting of the original LOGH is great. On March 22 2018 23:42 goody153 wrote:Just wondering why would it not cover the full scope of LotGH's story ? The length of remake or the amount of episodes they are gonna spend on it ? Because what anime in this day and age gets 100+ episodes besides either massively top 10 best selling manga popular stories or low budget productions? They'll never remake the entire story. I mean honestly if you don't want to watch old anime or if you just didn't like LOGH then just say that, but to call the animation, music and voice acting crappy is imo just a bit offensive to the great production values of the original.
Wew that ended up a bit longer than i expected it to.
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On March 22 2018 23:52 PoulsenB wrote:
How would one make a logical conclusion that a guy who makes and sells meth is a good guy?? Badass, maybe, in his own way, but good?
(I haven't watched the show)
He works with/for shady people or just plain cancer (you know cartel or other groups that essentially function like cartel like gus) that alone makes him not good.
On March 22 2018 23:56 Unleashing wrote:+ Show Spoiler [LOGH stuff] +On March 22 2018 23:42 goody153 wrote:
I'm not really an animation expert or somebody who works on the animation industry so my opinion might not be reliable but it does not look great to me. You're entitled to hold that opinion but the animation is good, it's fluid and the designs are consistent. I'm not sure what else you'd want from the animation department, if you don't like the art style that's something entirely different but the animation itself is good. So calling it 'crappy' animation is honestly a bit offensive to the genuinely good animation the show has. On March 22 2018 23:42 goody153 wrote:I don't hate classical music nor do i particularly liked them when i tried listening to them(i had a weird phase where i went from listening to metals into raps into classical music into just about anything until i ended up nowadays where i just listen to whatever song i like regardless of the genre) but it's certainly not the type of music that would hype watching something. Hype? The show isn't about hype, it's a space opera with a focus on war and the clashing of political ideologies. That's exactly why classical music fits the show great, when space ships are quietly flying through space classical music is a great fit that just sets the mood. On March 22 2018 23:42 goody153 wrote:About the voice-acting well it has plenty of characters but i don't really care about varied voice-acting but more of the voice-acting that carries "weight". If you know what i mean but i guess that also partly if i was entranced with the story. How does the voice acting in LOGH not carry weight? Like give me some examples here. I mean hell, a big chunk of the voice actors that worked on LOGH are still voicing characters to this day, you've probably watched plenty of shows with them that aired in the past 5 years. What makes their performance from back then not carry weight? Hell you like "Your Name" right? I know of at least one voice actor from the original LOGH also voiced a character in that film, maybe more, i don't really care to look that shit up. The voice acting of the original LOGH is great. On March 22 2018 23:42 goody153 wrote:Just wondering why would it not cover the full scope of LotGH's story ? The length of remake or the amount of episodes they are gonna spend on it ? Because what anime in this day and age gets 100+ episodes besides either massively top 10 best selling manga popular stories or low budget productions? They'll never remake the entire story. I mean honestly if you don't want to watch old anime or if you just didn't like LOGH then just say that, but to call the animation, music and voice acting crappy is imo just a bit offensive to the great production values of the original. Wew that ended up a bit longer than i expected it to.
Ok that makes sense nobody would ever cover that much amount of episodes this day and age except long shounen.
Not really trying to be disrespectful to the show but that's really how i see it i didn't really like it's animation, voice-acting(maybe i haven't yet heard all of them since i couldn't push through longer) and music. Classical music may hold up to you or other people but it doesn't to me, the music well that does
The thing is when it comes to medium of storytelling that has visuals(unlike reading materials) even with the promise of great story, throught-provoking stuff etc i kinda have to enjoy the combination of visuals, music and acting(voice-acting in
anime) or else i just lose interest since i expect to like those combinations when i watch series/movie/anime. I probably would enjoy LotGH as a form of a book rather than anime.
It just doesn't set the the mood for me and i've read shit like Malazan where it felt like i was reading a dictionary rather than a novel before the details started to click(but that's a book though so i have higher patience for it).
So yeah it doesn't hold my interest long enough. Probably not just my type
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On March 22 2018 23:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2018 23:24 PassiveAce wrote:
I dont understand how someone would think that breaking bad makes walter white look like a bad guy but mad men makes don draper look like a good guy.
If you pay any attention at all its clear draper is a scumbag from episode 1 You would be amazed at the number of people that think Don is totally awesome, well dress and just gets what he wants. Breaking Bad ends with a less than perfect attempt to make the audience engage with the idea that they wrong to cheer for Walter White.
I've only seen the first few seasons, but it was always impressive to me how good a job the show does at making Walter White look like a good sympathetic guy and making Hank completely unlikeable despite being one of the more moral characters on the show. Though it did always seem obvious that was the point and you were supposed to know that you're rooting for Walter despite him being a terrible person.
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I think that maybe the problem with these types of stories isn't the medium but the viewer (read as human condition) itself.
The viewer has to have something to latch onto and idealize in some way for a lot of these stories so instead of seeing the dark, terrivle nature of the anti-heroes they marvel and feel envious of their other aspects. Note how most of the anti-heroes have some quality that people flock to, whether it's the characters good looks, intellect, how badass they are, or whatever, that's what people internalize and remember.
Think about any movie with a serial killer. Has there ever been one where the serial killer has been the main character, not handsome, not smart, and not cool?
The only one that I can think of right now is Buffalo Bill from Hannibal (though he wasn't a main character) and he is really just a laughing stock and ridiculed.
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