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On February 10 2015 10:28 eieio wrote:
There's a concept in comedy called "punching up". It's really straightforward and basically just says that when you're making fun of people you want to be making fun of people higher than you on the totem pole, not lower than you. It's why a black comedian making fun of white people is normally much more ok than a white comedian making fun of black people. This is a massive simplification, but hopefully it makes some sense.
A lot of jokes that I see on reddit/sometimes TL/the internet in general are punching-down jokes.
Larry Wilmore has a sort of interesting take on this -
The main thrust will be to examine issues from the point of view of the underdog. [...]
“It was never intended to be a show only about minorities,” Mr. Wilmore said. “It’s a show about underdogs, and that happens in a lot of different forms, whether it’s race, gender, or whatever.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/20/arts/television/the-nightly-show-with-larry-wilmore-premieres-jan-19.html?_r=0
He's pretty much the most (only?) regularly visible minority comedian on US TV right now and his history of comedy writing is very, very long (he wrote for fresh prince). I like his show even though right now it really is very hit or miss.
edit- he did also say that being in the underdog position has allowed him to say things other comedians aren't able to, but I forget what interview he said that in
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I'll probably write a longer post in a bit after I eat but I just wanna clarify that I was just using black/white comedians as a really simplistic example and that Nevuk's link is a much better example of what punching up actually means.
My favorite comic when it comes to explaining punching up (and really in general) is Hari Kondabolu. He's also the brother of Ashok Kondabolu aka Dapwell aka the hypeman from Das Racist so you know he's good.
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whys febby featured after what he did to william 'blitz' lee
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the main way i feel this is problematic in terms of recent discussions is that a lot of people don't consider "invisible" disabilities or disadvantages actually "down" i.e. rich white bloggers on tumblr who claim to have PTSD and anxiety related to any kind of criticism at all and get triggered by a lot of seemingly innocuous actions or words. people who don't see their self-designations as disadvantaged as valid won't hesitate to punch them, and it's simply a matter of perspective whether they're actually up or down
i mean to me anyone who lives feeling often victimized is "down" and i don't particularly like making fun of them (i call my friends who browse /r/tumblrinaction and laugh along hypocrites for wasting time trying to feel superior to others for unimportant crap, just as the people made fun of on TiA supposedly do), but i can't really get behind the idea of supporting people who seem to, consciously or unconsciously, place themselves in the most victimized/"down" position just so no one can punch them and they can say/do whatever they want. especially when what they want to say involves punching people who they feel are victimizing them but really aren't. i guess though, in the end, that kind of lashing-out behavior is just another symptom of being "down," even if they lash out at the wrong targets sometimes.
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If your main argument is that people on tumblr might be offended and youre worried that will bleed into the real world. I have a simple answer for you.
It won't, those people are nuts. Much like you don't take reddit seriously, don't take tumblr seriously. Its a dumb place were you should only listen to people you trust from outside tumblr. Such arguments are kinda hyperbolic and shouldn't influence how you behave in the real world or even on a site like this.
Just don't be an asshole and don't make fun of people who's life is might be rougher than yours by nature(yes, there are people who have harder lives that nerds who like to play dota and talk about Harry Potter).
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please stop confusing your and you're i'm getting increasingly triggered. o m g and who's and whose too.
and no i didn't mean to imply any of those problems generalize to the less delusional/sheltered part of the world. it's just that applying the punching up/down logic doesn't really work there because everyone's silly, that's my whole point. i agree it's all silly and i really don't mess with it, but it seems a lot of people on GD reference the silliness of that world pretty often
but you made reference to someone who got genuinely offended by the "i sexually identify as a ___" / otherkin ridicule right? isn't that kind of thinking borne of the silly tumblr stuff? isn't that kind of what i'm pointing towards as the problematic part of the punchingup/punchingdown logic? i mean of course if i meet anyone who acts like one of the silly tumblr otherkin, i won't make fun of them to their face (not that i even make fun of them online), but isn't that exactly the type of person you're calling "nuts" here? am i crazy to be sensing a double standard for online and offline behavior when it might be the same people?
life is genuinely hard for strange people who have strange social quirks (e.g. otherkin) who get bullied and socially ridiculed, why is ok to call them "nuts" online but heed to their sensitivity offline?
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It's from me making that joke around a trans friend and super offending them a couple of years ago. Right wing ass holes like to say that transgender people are one step above "other kin" and all them inhuman and freaks. Or call them by their old name or other jerky shit.
And I only made people aware because I felt really bad about it and didn't know about any of that stuff. It seems like a super harmless joke, unless of course your transgender and chosen gender belittled by bigots.
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On February 10 2015 09:44 Plansix wrote:
No, I find the jokes funny. Its just the "I identify as an attack helicopter" is one of those jokes that might blow up in your face. I know from personal experience and I felt super bad about it, so I warn people now so they don't have to feel super bad.
this conflicts with
On February 10 2015 11:18 Plansix wrote:
If your main argument is that people on tumblr might be offended and youre worried that will bleed into the real world. I have a simple answer for you.
It won't, those people are nuts. Much like you don't take reddit seriously, don't take tumblr seriously. Its a dumb place were you should only listen to people you trust from outside tumblr. Such arguments are kinda hyperbolic and shouldn't influence how you behave in the real world or even on a site like this.
this in my eyes, because the type of person to get genuinely offended at "i identify as an attack helicopter" in the real world seems to be exactly the people you're calling "nuts" in your second quote
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On February 10 2015 11:34 Plansix wrote:
It's from me making that joke around a trans friend and super offending them a couple of years ago. Right wing ass holes like to say that transgender people are one step above "other kin" and all them inhuman and freaks. Or call them by their old name or other jerky shit.
And I only made people aware because I felt really bad about it and didn't know about any of that stuff. It seems like a super harmless joke, unless of course your transgender and chosen gender belittled by bigots.
don't otherkin genuinely feel offended and victimized by people who don't acknowledge their self-identity though? if you met an otherkin in real life, would you treat them with the same sensitivity as you would a transgender person? shouldn't transgender people stand in solidarity with otherkin rather than become offended by comparisons to them by people who acknowledge the validity of neither?
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On February 10 2015 06:43 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 06:41 EnumaAvalon wrote:
I just realized that LD does not have a spoiler checkbox on the main page. Or am I just blind? Correct, we don't. People asked about it and I think the response was "we r news site if u dont want news i recommend not visiting news site". Dunno I think we could have it or something but we dont.
That's interesting. TL has one tho :p
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I have never meet one, but I would likely be as respectful as I am to anyone else. I think they are weird as fuck because they think are angels and dragons and shit, but I'm not going to make jokes at their expense in front of them.
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On February 10 2015 11:43 EnumaAvalon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 06:43 Sn0_Man wrote:On February 10 2015 06:41 EnumaAvalon wrote:
I just realized that LD does not have a spoiler checkbox on the main page. Or am I just blind? Correct, we don't. People asked about it and I think the response was "we r news site if u dont want news i recommend not visiting news site". Dunno I think we could have it or something but we dont. That's interesting. TL has one tho :p
Pretty sure that's because it was deemed necessary during BW days when pretty much nothing was on at a normal time for western viewers and vods were hard to find (nowadays vods of dota are up like within the day mostly)
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I mean I see the attack helicopter copypasta as problematic because to me it seems like an attempt to delegitimize the idea of sexual identity. In terms of "punching up" I have a problem with it because gamers are typically relatively privileged dudes and I'm not comfortable with us as a group shitting on an already marginalized community.
It's not about being offended or being offensive, it's about looking at the context behind jokes and understanding how a joke can be harmful or hurtful towards a group that you don't naturally identify with.
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The International - Aegis
Dota 2 Asian Championship - Sword
Russian Dota 2 Festival - Cheese
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yeah, i'm in the same boat and no longer have a grasp of what my original point was. i think it's something along the lines of "if you make it a rule to generally act as if there might be a transgender among the strangers in your audience, you should act as if there might be an otherkin among the strangers in your audience as well," which clearly both eieio and plansix agree with, so i was preaching to the choir.
thank you for fixing your/you're, and please keep in mind in the future that "whose" is possessive while "who's" is "who is." i am a homophoneconfusiophobe (known in common parlance as a grammar nazi).
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On February 10 2015 11:52 icystorage wrote:
The International - Aegis
Dota 2 Asian Championship - Sword
Russian Dota 2 Festival - Cheese
its radiance not just any sword afaik
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oh didnt notice that, i havent seen the tip of radiance that's why i didnt recognize it
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On February 10 2015 11:54 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 11:52 icystorage wrote:
The International - Aegis
Dota 2 Asian Championship - Sword
Russian Dota 2 Festival - Cheese its radiance not just any sword afaik
yea the 1v1 challenge at TI - Divine Rapier
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On February 10 2015 11:52 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
yeah, i'm in the same boat and no longer have a grasp of what my original point was. i think it's something along the lines of "if you make it a rule to generally act as if there might be a transgender among the strangers in your audience, you should act as if there might be an otherkin among the strangers in your audience as well," which clearly both eieio and plansix agree with, so i was preaching to the choir.
I actually don't think audience really comes into play tbh.
Many of the best jokes contain some kind of truth, and I think it's important to look at what the point of a joke is.
As an example: I don't have a problem with someone using "gay" as an insult because it's offensive or because someone I'm around might be gay. I have a problem with using gay as an insult because it associates "gay" with bad and gay people are already marginalized and shit on by society and I have a problem with perpetuating that association.
The idea of punching up comes into play when looking at why I might be ok with, say, a joke making fun of straight dudes but not the inverse of that joke. It's not some hard and fast rule saying "person A can make fun of X and Y but not Z" so much as a very simple way of saying "huh, this joke might be problematic"
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that makes sense. i'm just kind of an insensitive bastard and have very little sense of personal responsibility when it comes to perpetuating these things; i just don't want to actually offend anyone in my vicinity. i'm the kind of asshole who uses "gay" as an insult occasionally knowing full well that its association of bad with homosexuality is distasteful and a reflection of marginalization, while holding the cynical yet idealistic hope that gay people grow thick enough skin to distinguish unfortunate linguistic side effects of their marginalization from actual attempts at marginalization, which i don't think using "gay" as an insult necessarily reflects in every instance of its usage, as stupid as that may sound.
i hold that hope precisely because of my low sense of personal responsibility: whether or not i personally use gay as an insult, while being some sort of statistical reflection of the general social sensibility of my culture (whatever that is), does little to affect the fact that gay people will often be exposed to its use as an insult, so they oughta grow thicker skin if they wanna get by. something along those lines.
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EPT
