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General Discussion - Page 788

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Yacobs
Profile Joined March 2010
United States846 Posts
August 02 2012 17:19 GMT
#15741
Most Euro/NA/etc. teams do not play Lycan properly half the time.


Please elaborate on how Lycan should be played and why this is different than the way Euro teams play him.
ChrisXIV
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Austria3553 Posts
August 02 2012 17:22 GMT
#15742
On August 02 2012 23:38 Dattish wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

Hey, I'm really really late replying to this but I didn't do Priestess of the Moon.

I don't know if I'm just being self-glorifying but going through this but I just had some people ask me to post more so I figure I can try to explain my hero involvement more precisely.

For some reason this forum is being very angry with me and doing "post denied" whenever I try to copy what I wrote over. It seems to accept it when I break in two however.

Earthshaker: Of my design. I'm really happy he's turned out to be so popular; I had high hopes for pathing blocks on Fissure and it seems to have become a success. Not much else to say, except that I had no idea his slow cast animations would have such an effect on his playstyle. It was just around that time that we were learning to synch up animations with actual effects, and wanted to make good use of the Tauren totem slam.

Tiny: This guy is sort of mine. Tiny was in the game before I came around and was considered an old favorite but had been removed since he just wasn't working. Iirc his original had Grow as well, so we just built on this theme on reintroduction.

Treant Protector: I had some input on this guy, or at least his "invis next to trees" ability. Leech Seed and his global aura weren't in the game at the time I worked on him.

Axe: Of my design. His original version didn't have Battle Hunger speeding Axe up, nor Culling Blade boosting ally movement. Probably good advancements since his original form had practically no pursuit power.

Bristleback: This was another guy's idea that was put in under my watch, where I had some input on the refinement of the idea but it was somebody else's baby.

Doom Bringer: Like Tiny, Doom Bringer was already in the game when I came around. I was just involved in giving him a facelift from his old version which was only a moderately changed Pit Lord from WarCraft 3 (although the new mechanic with him acquiring neutral abilities on Devour isn't mine, but is very cool).

Pudge: My pride and joy. What some of you might not know is that the current Pudge is actually the second Butcher that was put into the game. His first incarnation was as a summoner/pusher. He had the ability to store corpses like a Meat Wagon and then raise them. However, his ultimate was probably the most broken spell ever in DotA: Carrion Flies. The flies were a small, weak summon that were able to raise more of themselves. This would unfortunately result in Pudge being able to push an entire lane...while sitting in his base because the flies would increase in number faster than they'd die out. They were doubly horrible because they had no collision size so you'd see one fly....then die because it was actually 50 of them stacked on top of each other. Yeah, he got outright banned by people in public games.

It's been interesting to see how since his inception he's sort of permeated back into Blizzard's design. If you play World of WarCraft you'll notice that many of the abominations now have hooking moves and in Diablo 3 their Butcher also has a similar move.

Sandking: Of my design. His entire design came just from the fact that I found out that the scorpion models had a burrow animation and I really wanted to use it. He's probably one of my heroes that has gone through more changes than most, simply because he was such a boom-or-bust hero that was hard to balance. The original Epicenter stayed where it was cast, rather than following the Sandking. Slight adjustments in casting and stun times between Burrowstrike and Epicenter either made him way too powerful or completely incapable of getting his combo off.

Morphling: Of my design. First hero I ever got into DotA, while Guinsoo was still project head. He's also undergone quite a few changes like Sandking. His signature ability to convert Strength and Agility was there, as was Waveform, but that's about it. His ultimate is now Rubrick's (although my version was far more unwieldy to use) and I don't even recall what he had in place of Adaptive Strike.

Naga Siren: Already in game, I just invented her Song ultimate to replace whatever was there before (I don't even remember what it was).

Phantom Lancer: Of my design. Another case like Tiny where the hero was in before I came but was removed. I just brought it "back" using the original as an inspiration.

Stealth Assassin: Another case like Doom Bringer where the hero was in the game but I was involved in a heavy revamp. He already had perma-invis, but his old ultimate was Death Ward (same as the Witch Doctor except non-channeling). We nixed for the same reason Sandking had balance issues, where the hero's whole power depended on a single combo murdering the opponent before they could react. Smoke Screen and Backstab are my particular additions.

Ursa Warrior: Of my design. Fuzzy Wuzzy was the first hero to have a "secret" name. Fun fact is that his original version is that he was technically a ranged hero. Fury Swipes is based off of the Firelord's ability and the ability just wouldn't work when you put it on a melee hero. So he was actually a "ranged" hero in disguise to make it work.

Broodmother: Of my design. One of my personal favorites just because I like arthropods.

Nerubian Weaver: Of my design. In a twist of irony, I gave him a "useless" ability that ended up being removed and would probably have now been considered overpowered. I had the whole idea in my head of Shukuchi/Geminate/Time Lapse, but I couldn't think of a 4th ability that fit. After a while I basically gave up and awarded him the ability to summon invisible Shades which he could position around the map, giving him good vision of different areas. Yep, he had free everlasting mobile wards. Of course back then wards weren't in vogue (in fact, it was around my time that consumables were even introduced) so this ability was considered trash and skipped. I don't know when it was changed to the new swarm ability.

Shadow Fiend: Of my design. Ultimate has since been changed. His original ultimate was a set of orbs which floated around him that he could expand and contract, like a permanent version of the Guardian Wisp ability. I am however glad to see that Shadowraze has stayed around; it was an experimental ability that I knew was hard to control when I put it in, so glad to see that better players than I have made good use of it.

Enchantress: Of my design. Ultimate was originally Untouchable and Impetus was a basic ability, but other than that she still had the same set of abilities. Her healing ability is actually a variant of the War3 Crypt Lord swarm with a bunch of little units having auto-cast heal turned on. Recently picked up Dota 2 and she's probably one of my favorites to play as a support who can also sting when needed.

Keeper of the Light: I was involved in him, but I don't remember much else except working on Illuminate at some point. His original ultimate was an ungodly annoying pushing tool, a sort of Porta-Furion that could teleport around the map and summon support wisps to help fight.

Zeus: Already in the game, I just added in Static Field since he became rapidly useless past the early-mid game without the ability to weaken stronger opponents.

Tinker: Of my design. Fun fact is that Heat Seeking Missiles is Fan of Knives with a HUGE radius and small target limit. His ultimate actually stems from a limitation in the WarCraft 3 engine. There is no way to reset individual abilities in triggers, so you either reset everything or not. Otherwise he might have ended up quite differently.

Ogre Magi: Of my design.

Bane: I was involved in him. Like the Bristleback he was somebody else's baby, but I did the coding and refinement from the initial ideas.

Death Prophet: Already in the game, but I put in Witchcraft so that like Zeus her damage potential wouldn't just tank in the mid game against stronger heroes.

Enigma: Somebody else's idea, which I refined and coded. Blackhole, however, is my invention.

Necrolyte: Of my design. As a somewhat embarrassing anecdote, I was unaware of certain definitions when designing him. His original name was "Necrophiliac" since I figured he was affiliated with the dead. It was only brought to my attention later that I should probably rename him.

Visage: My version has since been overwritten. He was in the game previously and the gargoyles had always been his ultimate. I introduced Grave Chill as well as some other abilities to him. Soul Assumption is not of my design, nor is the new Gravekeeper's Cloak.

Misc.

Courier: Originally my idea. If the website lets me link URLs, I have a funny old picture of the original version equipped with a Dagon killing somebody (since it didn't have the limitations of the current couriers).

Items: I didn't do a lot with item invention, mostly I just sorted them. I did however introduce the Bracer and Wraith Band (originally Null Talisman was the only early game tri-stat) as well as the Refresher Orb (since it was basically the same idea as the Tinker).

And whew, I think that covers most of what I was involved in.

No need to get nasty toward people on my part. I could tell he was just messing around. As for ranged Ursa, there was just a checkbox option for ranged or melee; if you put ranged, it would look at certain values (such as "Range" and "Projectile Speed") and ignore them if melee. He was just checked as Range with a 128 range and 999999 projectile speed. It sounds like IceFrog has since overcome this limitation.

Anyway, I truthfully don't remember what IceFrog's first hero was. So the way things worked was...um...messy. I can try to give a history of things to the best of my memory.

When I started playing the game Guinsoo was project head. I had been inspired by playing the game to try to make my own with a friend. I actually found it the other day, still lingering on my old (old old old) Homestead account; http://neichus.homestead.com/files/neichusdota.zip if you want to look at it, but it's pretty disorganized. You can see a few early precursors, such as Morphling and Broodmother though. However, after a bit I just decided to get involved in DotA proper.

I mostly just posted things on the hero creation forum. I collaborated a bit with some different people. For instance, I met somebody named SensualSuccubus ("Sens") who had an encyclopedic knowledge of icons and graphics, which helped make my coding creations look a lot better. I also had a few other buddies in the hero making business which I liked talking to, namely ShadowPenguin (Bane's designer) and AfroThunder (Bristleback's designer).

As I already mentioned, Morphling was my first hero to get into the game. I don't recall at what point I actually became part of Guinsoo's "team" as it were, but I use that word loosely. The organization at the time was set up such that Guinsoo had exclusive access to the map for the most part, so anything I did was through him by presenting example maps or talking. Pendragon was the guy who hosted the website and worried about the finances (I still remember him asking me if it was okay to rename Razor "Razer" because the company was wanting to advertise). I somewhat had a counterpart named Terror13laze who also had Guinsoo's ear but I'll refrain from saying much in his case as he honestly drove me nuts; Enigma, Abaddon, and Tidehunter are his projects.

This is how things continued for some time, with Guinsoo being in charge and everything flowing through him. After a bit this sort of broke down. He had set out on an ambitious project to add a third tavern of heroes for each side in a giant upgrade. He also had started on his most ambitious hero project yet: Invoker. He was similar to how he functions now, except that the order of invocations mattered so he had 27 abilities rather than 10. In any case, he became disinterested in DotA. Months passed without a new release and the natives grew restless (as did I). So, I took some action.

Previously I had been involved in a project to attempt to make a "true" sequel to the classic game StarControl II (StarControl: TimeWarp was its name). It eventually just flamed out, though, because of divisive elements. I really didn't want to see that happen again so I took the project from Guinsoo. I did this by getting two key people on board. First was Pendragon; whoever controlled the site functionally made it the "official" version, and as I already mentioned he had a monetary investment in the project so I convinced him to go along with me. IceFrog was the other, as he was able to get through the rudimentary protection the map had and provide me with an editable version. Whether it was right of me I'll let other people decide, but Guinsoo was pretty mad at me (although last I talked to him he didn't seem to bear any lasting ill-will).

I went on to complete the major overhaul/upgrade, which is when many of my heroes were put in. At this point I functionally replaced Guinsoo in that I mostly controlled the map, although I handed it off to IceFrog a lot because he was simply better than I was at coding. This led to a rather unfortunate incident at one point, though. DotA used to have an atrocious load time; so long that it would actually put people off playing it, especially when combined with the people who would -random, get a hero they didn't want, and quit immediately. During the earlier debacle a Russian programmer (don't recall the name) had come up with a method to dramatically lower the load time and had released his own version of the map with the improvements. At the same time IceFrog had also developed the same thing and was in the process of implementing it after I took control. From the outside it looked like we straight up stole this other guy's work and gave him no credit, so that caused some consternation with people. But I do maintain to this day that IceFrog developed it on his own and that we didn't rip somebody else off.

After being project head for a while I go things rolling again, but it was wearing on me. I don't have a particularly thick skin, and anybody involved with game design knows this is a bad thing. Gamers are vicious in their assessments, and since I felt it was my duty to keep in touch with things on the forums I got pretty worn down (to somebody who was asking before: the reason I have a late join date is because the website has since moved from its old location where I was originally involved). I also was not clear on certain things. For instance, I've since come to appreciate that you have to choose a balance point: you can balance a game for newcomers, or intermediates, or advanced players but you can't really do so for everybody at once. This led to a lot of consternation as professional players would gripe about some things while the forums were full of vitriol about others. After a bit I was pretty miserable, as it had become an onerous job on top of my school work load. I told IceFrog I needed a bit of a break and left the project with him. And then I just sort of never came back.

And that's the end of my involvement until recently, when I wandered back and started playing Dota 2 because my brothers were into it. Which has gotten me thinking about things all over again (as well as posting here), and pestering poor IceFrog with ideas.

I've already had a few people ask me about a hero or item or something in my name, and I'm not really looking for it. Besides, this moniker is actually horribly mangled. It's supposed to be pronounced "nye-kuss" but I made it up when I was young so I didn't do it properly and everybody says "nee-chuss." Nothing more embarrassing than having your name mispronounced all over the internet. ;-)

Edit: looks like I can post URLs now. A few of them I dug up (yes, they look so professional don't they?):
Tiny promo
Weaver promo
Shadowfiend promo
Axe promo
Enigma promo
Phantom lancer promo
Earthshaker promo

Oh wow. So much interesting stuff about heroes, and drama too. :D
"Just stay on 1 base, make a lot of shit, keep attacking. It doesn't work? Keep attacking." -Chill
arena_say_what
Profile Joined June 2011
122 Posts
August 02 2012 18:24 GMT
#15743
I just got pub-stomped by an anitmage. That hero can vanish, mirror image and mana drain. From what I've read the hero only has like 2 counters. That hero has really ruined dota 2 for me. Time to go back to LoL
Qbek
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Poland12923 Posts
August 02 2012 18:26 GMT
#15744
On August 03 2012 03:24 arena_say_what wrote:
I just got pub-stomped by an anitmage. That hero can vanish, mirror image and mana drain. From what I've read the hero only has like 2 counters. That hero has really ruined dota 2 for me. Time to go back to LoL

The counters are: Gank and?
This space left intentionally dank /)3(\ http://i.imgur.com/RmeEUcF.png
Zhou
Profile Joined February 2009
United States832 Posts
August 02 2012 18:31 GMT
#15745
On August 03 2012 03:24 arena_say_what wrote:
I just got pub-stomped by an anitmage. That hero can vanish, mirror image and mana drain. From what I've read the hero only has like 2 counters. That hero has really ruined dota 2 for me. Time to go back to LoL


He doesn't really vanish, he blinks unless we're talking invisibility runes. Speaking of runes, illusion rune can be a possibility for him to replicate himself, but its common enough for antimage to build manta for it, and mana drain is indeed a part of an 'antimage'.

As for him having two counters, hes a hard carry. You just have to shut him down and prevent him bringing it to the late game. It's probably why it was a pub stomp. He's definitely not as bad as people think he is, although he does relatively make games boring in my opinion.
Crissaegrim
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
2947 Posts
August 02 2012 18:39 GMT
#15746
On August 03 2012 02:03 RyzeDotA wrote:
http://www.twitch.tv/ryzedota/

streaming our scrims if you are interested


By "our scrims" I take it you have found another new team?
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
August 02 2012 18:45 GMT
#15747
On August 03 2012 00:50 Heh_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2012 00:44 TheYango wrote:
Nerubian Weaver: Of my design. In a twist of irony, I gave him a "useless" ability that ended up being removed and would probably have now been considered overpowered. I had the whole idea in my head of Shukuchi/Geminate/Time Lapse, but I couldn't think of a 4th ability that fit. After a while I basically gave up and awarded him the ability to summon invisible Shades which he could position around the map, giving him good vision of different areas. Yep, he had free everlasting mobile wards. Of course back then wards weren't in vogue (in fact, it was around my time that consumables were even introduced) so this ability was considered trash and skipped. I don't know when it was changed to the new swarm ability.

Wasn't it actually considered overpowered back then too?

I distinctly remember maxing Watchers either first or second for the insane vision.

I guess that was back when sentry wards costed double but had observer ward vision and lasted for 6 minutes.

No one used the watchers early until dark seers introduction, which made the dark seer weaver lane dumb (invisible ion shell). After the change people just dropped the weaver part of the lane, and thus dark seer solo lane was born.
Silentenigma
Profile Joined July 2009
Turkey2037 Posts
August 02 2012 19:07 GMT
#15748
On August 03 2012 03:24 arena_say_what wrote:
I just got pub-stomped by an anitmage. That hero can vanish, mirror image and mana drain. From what I've read the hero only has like 2 counters. That hero has really ruined dota 2 for me. Time to go back to LoL

Good luck on lol
日本語が上手ですね
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-02 19:11:00
August 02 2012 19:10 GMT
#15749
On August 03 2012 03:45 PrinceXizor wrote:
No one used the watchers early until dark seers introduction, which made the dark seer weaver lane dumb (invisible ion shell). After the change people just dropped the weaver part of the lane, and thus dark seer solo lane was born.

I'm pretty sure I was maxing Watchers second before DS came out. Or at the very least, I wasn't necessarily using them with Dark Seer.

I can't see how it was possible for people to not realize that 8 free wards worth of vision that could also move wherever you wanted them to was mind-bogglingly OP.
Moderator
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-02 19:12:46
August 02 2012 19:11 GMT
#15750
On August 03 2012 03:24 arena_say_what wrote:
I just got pub-stomped by an anitmage. That hero can vanish, mirror image and mana drain. From what I've read the hero only has like 2 counters. That hero has really ruined dota 2 for me. Time to go back to LoL

There are many counters to anti-mage. The usual way to do it in a pub is to send a very strong lane against him that prevents farm (Sven/Lina, Lesh/SK, that type of thing) or outright kills him. SD is also a really annoying counter in lane as the images you make get his mana burn.

Another way to do it is to pick a push oriented lineup that destroys their rax before he has time to farm past a battlefury (Veno, Rhasta, Lycan, Furion, a lineup of this + 1 hero should be able to easily do it if the lycan and furion know what they are doing).

If AM is farmed then his classic counters are crowd control heroes - like Rhasta, Lion, Bane. (Bane also deals true damage and can disable through BKB. If you're insanely worried about Anti-mage then play Bane middle.) It's possible to permanently lock down an AM with a lineup of something like CK/Rhasta/Lion/Lina/Sven... but usually not necessary.

The other counter is that Ranged Carries can beat anti-mage with significantly less farm (morphling is the classic example) and the only advantage he has is his ability to farm rapidly in comparison to the stronger ranged agi carries. The longer the game goes on the more true this becomes - if AM hasn't raxed a ranged agi carry by about the 45 minute mark and the game isn't a complete stomp, the AM is unlikely to win (and in pro games people have come back from being a rax down and significantly behind with morphling as their carry)

He also doesn't have mirror image, that's an item that any hero can buy. Mana drain is the only ability you've listed that he has. Try playing the hero and you'll understand his weaknesses - he has a lower than 50% winrate in pubgames because he is not particularly strong unless a player has good decision-making and knowledge of how to farm.
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-02 19:11:40
August 02 2012 19:11 GMT
#15751
double post.
WriterXiao8~~
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
August 02 2012 19:11 GMT
#15752
On August 03 2012 04:10 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2012 03:45 PrinceXizor wrote:
No one used the watchers early until dark seers introduction, which made the dark seer weaver lane dumb (invisible ion shell). After the change people just dropped the weaver part of the lane, and thus dark seer solo lane was born.

I'm pretty sure I was maxing Watchers second before DS came out. Or at the very least, I wasn't necessarily using them with Dark Seer.

I can't see how it was possible for people to not realize that 8 free wards worth of vision that could also move wherever you wanted them to was mind-bogglingly OP.

Patrollable wards*

only counter was a gem or radiance lol.
WriterXiao8~~
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-02 19:42:24
August 02 2012 19:18 GMT
#15753
On August 03 2012 02:19 Yacobs wrote:
Show nested quote +
Most Euro/NA/etc. teams do not play Lycan properly half the time.


Please elaborate on how Lycan should be played and why this is different than the way Euro teams play him.

People have gone over it many times before in various places... in short western teams have him teamfighting when he should be pushing and pushing when he should be teamfighting. It generally takes a fair amount of experience with him to know, and experience against the opposing composition.

For instance against OD you want to push more than teamfight as he can banish you or your target and waste a considerable portion of your ult or bkb duration. SD can do a similar thing. On the other hand if you're against a team that only has slows then go wild in teamfights as they don't affect your ult in the slightest (Veno comes to mind here mainly, as his wards can really slow down your pushes but you can just ult and beat him to death if they picked a lineup without any stuns).

edit : the classic player of Lycan is iceiceice. He's the person who used him long before he was buffed just because he felt like it on that particular day. I don't know if he plays him anymore, however, but his decision making was supposedly impeccable with the hero.

Here's the only game I see listed where he played Lycan in a tournament setting :
http://dota-academy.com/match/1101/

I don't want to spend 5$ to watch it, but you should see the end-game score is a little ... unusual.
Yoshi-
Profile Joined October 2008
Germany10227 Posts
August 02 2012 19:25 GMT
#15754
Also they are all jungling him from lvl1, which is imo not the best thing to do.
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
August 02 2012 19:26 GMT
#15755
On August 03 2012 04:10 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2012 03:45 PrinceXizor wrote:
No one used the watchers early until dark seers introduction, which made the dark seer weaver lane dumb (invisible ion shell). After the change people just dropped the weaver part of the lane, and thus dark seer solo lane was born.

I'm pretty sure I was maxing Watchers second before DS came out. Or at the very least, I wasn't necessarily using them with Dark Seer.

I can't see how it was possible for people to not realize that 8 free wards worth of vision that could also move wherever you wanted them to was mind-bogglingly OP.

Urna Swarm was far superior than Watchers in my opinion, but that's just my two cents.

The rest of the hero was pretty weak, a lot of heroes were scarier then than Weaver with Watchers.
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
August 02 2012 19:28 GMT
#15756
On August 03 2012 04:25 Yoshi- wrote:
Also they are all jungling him from lvl1, which is imo not the best thing to do.

One team laned him straight up as a solo. This was quite a while ago though. At level 7 his invis wolves easily harassed the opponents out of the lane. (I think this was a western team). He got mediocre farm but leveled really fast and they used it in conjunction with a pushing lineup (maybe an engima was involved? this was quite a while ago).
Yoshi-
Profile Joined October 2008
Germany10227 Posts
August 02 2012 19:30 GMT
#15757
Well, at least for the first levels he should get way more farm than in the jungle and later he can either give the lane to someone else or lane with hero and jungle a few camps with wolves.
Yacobs
Profile Joined March 2010
United States846 Posts
August 02 2012 19:59 GMT
#15758
If you try to go in a lane with Lycan in a pub, there's a 90% chance you have to deal with your teammates flaming you for the rest of the game and threatening to sit in the fountain... hah.
Yoshi-
Profile Joined October 2008
Germany10227 Posts
August 02 2012 20:03 GMT
#15759
Because in pubs it makes no sense to lane a jungler.
If you lane you will just have an autoattacking creep pushing ally that makes it impossibleto farm properly
PrinceXizor
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States17713 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-02 20:19:31
August 02 2012 20:16 GMT
#15760
On August 03 2012 04:10 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 03 2012 03:45 PrinceXizor wrote:
No one used the watchers early until dark seers introduction, which made the dark seer weaver lane dumb (invisible ion shell). After the change people just dropped the weaver part of the lane, and thus dark seer solo lane was born.

I'm pretty sure I was maxing Watchers second before DS came out. Or at the very least, I wasn't necessarily using them with Dark Seer.

I can't see how it was possible for people to not realize that 8 free wards worth of vision that could also move wherever you wanted them to was mind-bogglingly OP.

This was a time in which weaver needed to level his other spells to be viable in lane since he was often put solo. It was also the hayday of treant protector, who also gave free wards. This was also the sentinel vs scourge era. where sentinel often had ways of circumventing watchers.
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