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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On June 24 2012 09:50 Erasme wrote: tranquill boots + vitality booster into radiance. Vanguard is bad, just keep vitality booster for hearth after you got diffusal :D What is the reason for the shift to Tranquil boots+vit booster over Vanguard exactly? The item went from being extremely popular to people saying it isn't worth it at all. | ||
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Aui_2000
Canada435 Posts
On June 24 2012 10:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: What is the reason for the shift to Tranquil boots+vit booster over Vanguard exactly? The item went from being extremely popular to people saying it isn't worth it at all. People learned how to do math | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On June 24 2012 10:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: What is the reason for the shift to Tranquil boots+vit booster over Vanguard exactly? The item went from being extremely popular to people saying it isn't worth it at all. People are like that in Dota, it's the same with picks in -CM. Vanguard took a small nerf, but not enough to go from amazing to terrible. I do think it's not worth it on ranged heroes, but it can still be a situation item on melee carries, depending on the enemy heroes and simply on how the game has been going. That means you also are able to get phase/treads, as well as the bigger block, giving you a little more power in midgame teamfights. The addition of tranquil boots basically replaces the ring of health in this kind of heroes, giving them the sustainability they need and the vitality booster is enough to for you to survive fights. Since you ussually end up making a Heart at some point, you don't need another vitality booster and you can simply dissassemble the boots and sell the components you won't use. It's cheaper, so a faster way to get radiance, and the diference from a vanguard isn't that big. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
 (((((((( | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
well pre tranquil boots math wasn't so much a factor since people needed regen and hp and stuff (applied even more so 3 years ago when it had equal blocked for ranged along with weaker pipe/mek mechanics, no jango), but post tranquil boots you have a cheap disassemble-able item that gives some heroes more than enough regen they will ever need to get their core items AND movement speed. shouldnt take a huge logical leap. that doesnt mean vanguard is a dead item but its rarely, if ever, a core item | ||
CountChocula
Canada2068 Posts
On June 24 2012 10:07 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: What is the reason for the shift to Tranquil boots+vit booster over Vanguard exactly? The item went from being extremely popular to people saying it isn't worth it at all. Vanguard's received multiple nerfs in past versions. Before v6.68, you got a +50HP bonus (250HP -> 300HP) from completing it instead of leaving it as Vit Booster and individual components, but now it still gives 250HP even after you complete it, so there's really no point completing it anymore other than for the damage block, which PMS provides at a much lower price. Or to save slots, which shouldn't matter to Spectre early on. For regen, you can use the new item Tranquil Boots like rabidch mentioned (which actually provides slightly more HP regen than Vanguard's 6HP/s < 3HP/s passive + 170HP/40s active). The mvt speed bonus is the icing on the cake. You can pick up a casual Vit Booster if you're afraid of getting ganked. PMS+Tranquil+Vit Booster costs 1000 less gold than Vanguard+upgraded boots, which you can put towards your Radiance and you can reuse 1100 gold from it to complete Heart later on, which is a good item on many agi melee carries. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On June 24 2012 10:51 CountChocula wrote: Vanguard's received multiple nerfs in past versions. Before v6.68, you got a +50HP bonus (250HP -> 300HP) from completing it instead of leaving it as Vit Booster and individual components, but now it still gives 250HP even after you complete it, so there's really no point completing it anymore other than for the damage block, which PMS provides at a much lower price. Or to save slots, which shouldn't matter to Spectre early on. For regen, you can use the new item Tranquil Boots like rabidch mentioned (which actually provides slightly more HP regen than Vanguard's 6HP/s < 3HP/s passive + 170HP/40s active). The mvt speed bonus is the icing on the cake. You can pick up a casual Vit Booster if you're afraid of getting ganked. PMS+Tranquil+Vit Booster costs 1000 less gold than Vanguard+upgraded boots, which you can put towards your Radiance and you can reuse 1100 gold from it to complete Heart later on, which is a good item on many agi melee carries. Let's be fair, if you compare it to unupgraded boots, it's about even. So you basically get the extra movespeed outside of battles that Tranquil gives you, a diferent form of regen (smaller overall) and the extra agility from PMS. In battles, tranquil will likely break fairly fast, but even if it doesnt, you should add the extra damage/survivability the other boots give you to the equation. The biggest diference is later on, as you can complete your heart faster, but you will lose the extra health of the vanguard (which is as relevant at that point) and will have to buy another set of boots. It's not as big of a diference as some people imply, if you can use the extra block of the vanguard for things like Krob's ult or jungling early on, it's still decent. It's just not core on every hero that needs to tank some damage like it used to be. Tranquil is also very easy to build, which could be better if you are in a hard lane and can't get a fast RoH. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On June 24 2012 11:50 SKC wrote: It's not as big of a diference as some people imply, if you can use the extra block of the vanguard for things like Krob's ult or jungling early on, it's still decent. It's just not core on every hero that needs to tank some damage like it used to be. Tranquil is also very easy to build, which could be better if you are in a hard lane and can't get a fast RoH. Just pointing this out since I had to google who the hell Krob is: The spirits' damage is reduced by armor, but not by damage block (Stout Shield, etc.). .. so Vanguard doesn't really help there. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On June 24 2012 11:50 SKC wrote: Let's be fair, if you compare it to unupgraded boots, it's about even. So you basically get the extra movespeed outside of battles that Tranquil gives you, a diferent form of regen (smaller overall) and the extra agility from PMS. In battles, tranquil will likely break fairly fast, but even if it doesnt, you should add the extra damage/survivability the other boots give you to the equation. The biggest diference is later on, as you can complete your heart faster, but you will lose the extra health of the vanguard (which is as relevant at that point) and will have to buy another set of boots. It's not as big of a diference as some people imply, if you can use the extra block of the vanguard for things like Krob's ult or jungling early on, it's still decent. It's just not core on every hero that needs to tank some damage like it used to be. Tranquil is also very easy to build, which could be better if you are in a hard lane and can't get a fast RoH. The thing is, the fact that Tranquil's are disassemble-able give you much greater flexibility. It's valid to compare it to upgraded boots, because there is fairly minimal overhead to disassembling Tranquil's and rebuilding your upgraded boots of choice when you wish to. You're by no means committed to staying with Tranquil's for an extended period of time midgame, particularly as you're only selling back the ~500 gold worth of components, and not the entire boots. Regen is primarily useful in the stages of the game where there's someone actually laning against you. The in-combat survivability value of regen is extremely low anyway, and past laning it's unlikely you'll be in an extended scenario where someone is trading harassment with you in a lane. The fact that Tranquil's allows you to disassemble and ditch the regen when it stops being useful is quite key, when compared to Vanguard which essentially locks you into the 875 gold committment of an RoH. EDIT: Dunno how this didn't get mentioned earlier but-- On June 24 2012 09:50 Erasme wrote: tranquill boots + vitality booster into radiance. Vanguard is bad, just keep vitality booster for hearth after you got diffusal :D Diffusal->Radiance is a fairly weak path of item development on Spectre IMO. A large part of Radiance's value is as a farming item. You want to pick it up as your first large core item and aim to farm with it to peak at your 2nd or 3rd core item. Earlier Diffusal builds aim to teamfight and develop much earlier, which means it makes no sense to use that development to build a farming item--which would stall out the momentum you gained from teamfighting with Diffusal. It would be equivalent to going Vanguard+Manta on AM, and then building a late Battlefury to farm after that instead of transitioning into further teamfighting items like BKB/BFly/Heart. It can be a good choice to go Diffusal->Radiance if you got an advantage with the early Diffusal, but don't feel you can keep up the momentum enough to win the game, but generally speaking you want to plan around either Radi first->Diffusal/Heart/Manta/etc. after, or transition directly into further teamfight items after your fast Diffusal. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On June 24 2012 12:07 TheYango wrote: The thing is, the fact that Tranquil's are disassemble-able give you much greater flexibility. It's valid to compare it to upgraded boots, because there is fairly minimal overhead to disassembling Tranquil's and rebuilding your upgraded boots of choice when you wish to. You're by no means committed to staying with Tranquil's for an extended period of time midgame, particularly as you're only selling back the ~500 gold worth of components, and not the entire boots. Regen is primarily useful in the stages of the game where there's someone actually laning against you. The in-combat survivability value of regen is extremely low anyway, and past laning it's unlikely you'll be in an extended scenario where someone is trading harassment with you in a lane. The fact that Tranquil's allows you to disassemble and ditch the regen when it stops being useful is quite key, when compared to Vanguard which essentially locks you into the 875 gold committment of an RoH. Yeah, but then add the cost of gold required to selling the components and making a new pair of boots, which is like 750 gold. I'm just saying you can't simply compare it to upgraded boots and ignore it's benefits. Either you add the cost of remaking them, add the stats upgrade boots give to the "vanguard route" or compare it to unupgraded ones. The vanguard way is slightly more expensive, has some benefits that you may consider worth that gold or not, other issues that make tranquil more flexible overall, and will delay the heart a little bit while giving you slightly more health after you finish it. Plus, we are talking about (terrible, in his words) pubs here. The time to farm that radiance is longer, you are not as protected and you may have to join fights sooner. The time where you make use of both the regen and the fact you have upgraded boots earlier is longer than a pro game. The details that make one better aren't really meaningfull in a low level game, in my opinion. Either way should be fine. | ||
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
keep in mind that a PMS offers almost the same amount of dmg reduction vs heroes as a vanguard and tranq boots offer equivalent if not better jungling ability the "extra block" of vanguard over pms is nonexistent vs heroes, since +1 armor and an average of 20 reduced dmg works out to almost the same as average of 24 reduced dmg basically unless u plan on going treads of phase you should never get vanguard, because not only is it a dead end item that becomes a liability lategame and delays heart, it doesn't offer any more benefit for cost | ||
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CountChocula
Canada2068 Posts
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Witten
United States2094 Posts
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AndyJay
Australia833 Posts
@Witten: Try some co op bot games, it's always a team full of people vs bots. It doesn't matter if you're new because even a few average players can 3v5 bots but it'll make the games more interesting and you can see how people play. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On June 24 2012 15:52 AndyJay wrote: I really hate the random gold, now I just random every single game. Hope they change it like HoN to remove it. @Witten: Try some co op bot games, it's always a team full of people vs bots. It doesn't matter if you're new because even a few average players can 3v5 bots but it'll make the games more interesting and you can see how people play. As long as your allies actually leave the game the bots keep it fair. This actually becomes a problem though because if you want to learn dota you need to be playing 5v5 instead of 3v3 or 4v4. There is almost always a leaver in co-op AI games it seems | ||
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
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Xinder
United States2269 Posts
On June 24 2012 15:52 AndyJay wrote: I really hate the random gold, now I just random every single game. Hope they change it like HoN to remove it. @Witten: Try some co op bot games, it's always a team full of people vs bots. It doesn't matter if you're new because even a few average players can 3v5 bots but it'll make the games more interesting and you can see how people play. The point of the Random gold is to be a bonus b/c you random. If they took away the bonus gold no one would ever random b/c there would be no point. | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
The 50 hp also matters a lot, 250 hp for 1100 gold means that you don't get that 220 extra gold worth of health. So there's not much downside to going for that extra early game farming advantage. | ||
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Corr
Denmark796 Posts
Get Tranquil+Vit Booster. If the game calls for it you disassemble the tranquil and make phase boots and a stick to be relevant in midgame fights otherwise just proceed to radiance. If they're about to push down your rax right as you're getting your radiance before you can finish heart you get a blademail or if they're not bad enough to get owned by that you save for rebuy obv. Only get desolate over stats when you feel you have enough HP to get away with it. If the game is still competitive after you get the Heart you'll probably want Manta before you get a Diffusal for the versatility. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On June 24 2012 12:07 TheYango wrote: The thing is, the fact that Tranquil's are disassemble-able give you much greater flexibility. It's valid to compare it to upgraded boots, because there is fairly minimal overhead to disassembling Tranquil's and rebuilding your upgraded boots of choice when you wish to. You're by no means committed to staying with Tranquil's for an extended period of time midgame, particularly as you're only selling back the ~500 gold worth of components, and not the entire boots. Regen is primarily useful in the stages of the game where there's someone actually laning against you. The in-combat survivability value of regen is extremely low anyway, and past laning it's unlikely you'll be in an extended scenario where someone is trading harassment with you in a lane. The fact that Tranquil's allows you to disassemble and ditch the regen when it stops being useful is quite key, when compared to Vanguard which essentially locks you into the 875 gold committment of an RoH. EDIT: Dunno how this didn't get mentioned earlier but-- Diffusal->Radiance is a fairly weak path of item development on Spectre IMO. A large part of Radiance's value is as a farming item. You want to pick it up as your first large core item and aim to farm with it to peak at your 2nd or 3rd core item. Earlier Diffusal builds aim to teamfight and develop much earlier, which means it makes no sense to use that development to build a farming item--which would stall out the momentum you gained from teamfighting with Diffusal. It would be equivalent to going Vanguard+Manta on AM, and then building a late Battlefury to farm after that instead of transitioning into further teamfighting items like BKB/BFly/Heart. It can be a good choice to go Diffusal->Radiance if you got an advantage with the early Diffusal, but don't feel you can keep up the momentum enough to win the game, but generally speaking you want to plan around either Radi first->Diffusal/Heart/Manta/etc. after, or transition directly into further teamfight items after your fast Diffusal. You misread me, I said radi --> diffu --> hearth  | ||
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