EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 5220
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 25 2014 06:44 Excludos wrote: That was my point. Its mirrored, yet the characters are broken by the game's standard, but its still obviously balanced. What I was trying (failing) to prove was that you can have mirror match ups be "fight broken with broken". edit: Except for oddjob. He was just broken fullstop. That doesn't really apply to the nerfnow comic either though, because Goldeneye is a game that never received patches. The subject of the comic (no matter how it's misrepresented) is how each respective company responds to complaints about imbalance (hence the one character saying "oh my god this is imba, nerf now!" at the start). It's not trying to directly compare their games as teapoted suggests. On April 25 2014 06:48 Sn0_Man wrote: Yango, I wouldn't term it as "Responding to balance whine" so much as I'd term it "responding to perceived imbalance" because a) it sounds nicer and b) its somewhat more accurate. Actual balance whine is ignored by msot people with a brain ("OMFG Bloodseeker is so OP" kthxbro) I'd consider the two to be one and the same when we're looking at the scale of the entire community (things that are whined about by the community at large tend to represent perceptions of imbalance as viewed by the community as a whole), but you're right. | ||
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
Because my issue was with the general notion, not just that comic. | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
 On April 25 2014 06:55 FinestHour wrote: it doestn matter what shit icefrog serves on the shiny plate yall just gonna eat the shit anyway Yum yum. I'll admit its a tad unfortunate I can't just play 6.78 whenever I want to unless I boot up WC3. I kinda disliked a lot of the 6.79 changes to deny xp and jungle layout but w/e. | ||
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
As perceived imbalance doesn't have to come from the community. While I'll agree that different developers take community feedback in different ways. They still have internal teams which (I'd imagine) rule the majority of balance changes made to these games. And if we look at a game like Dota, the vast majority of changes made aren't in response to "balance whine". They're made from experimentation, consultation, and internal testing. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On April 25 2014 06:53 teapoted wrote: Well I wasn't only talking about the comic. I said "The whole "fight broken with broken" that everyone seems to attribute Dota with makes absolutely no sense." Because my issue was with the general notion, not just that comic. Things in DotA feel broken and overpowered. DotA2 is balanced to preserve those feelings and perceptions. Per the comic Riot balances things by smoothing out and powering down things until stuff feels more samey or fun sized as in nothing you can do feels like it subverts the game and breaks it. WoW balance feels like they just take turns making different classes more powerful. In all 3 cases the reality is not necessarily the same as the feeling. Basically the fact that you have situations in Dota where people feel unstoppable and overpowered, like say a 6 slotted late game carry or a Pudge who lands all their hooks, is where the comic and the perception come from. The actual reality of balance isn't that you're fighting broken with broken, just that you're allowing for things to have strong niche uses and weaknesses elsewhere with most things having a strong feeling of impact on the game. | ||
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Ru ba
Serbia1812 Posts
Dota feels really free in that aspect^^ | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 25 2014 06:57 teapoted wrote: I also believe, like Sn0 said, that it isn't really the same thing. As perceived imbalance doesn't have to come from the community. While I'll agree that different developers take community feedback in different ways. They still have internal teams which (I'd imagine) rule the majority of balance changes made to these games. And if we look at a game like Dota, the vast majority of changes made aren't in response to "balance whine". They're made from experimentation, consultation, and internal testing. Empirically, there are more changes in LoL that are made in response to community complaints of imbalance, and more changes that can be attributed to direct community feedback. Conversely, there are many cases in DotA where Icefrog has staunchly chosen not to nerf heroes in the way that the community has tended to suggest. For example, Icefrog didn't touch Song of the Siren in the post-TI2 Naga nerf, and has never gone back on the PL buff to 4.2 Agi gain. | ||
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
On April 25 2014 06:55 Sn0_Man wrote: Yeah I haven't been a fan of some of the bigger changes made. Especially with smoke. It just seems like Dota has become more about small skirmishes than overall strategy, which isn't necessarily a negative, I'm sure it's more fun to watch/play for some.I know I'm splitting hairs but when balance whine is an instant ban on parts of this particular forum it feels like that's an important hair to split Yum yum. I'll admit its a tad unfortunate I can't just play 6.78 whenever I want to unless I boot up WC3. I kinda disliked a lot of the 6.79 changes to deny xp and jungle layout but w/e. Then again I also think split pushing is the most interesting style of play in Dota and most people seem to hate it, so I'm probably in the minority. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22213 Posts
On April 25 2014 06:55 FinestHour wrote: it doestn matter what shit icefrog serves on the shiny plate yall just gonna eat the shit anyway + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h262/uncle_loknar2/rage/rage57.gif) | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
pugna has 4.0 int gain and is no longer the top any single-stat gainer. | ||
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Jinxed
United States6450 Posts
Every game that was 3-1-0 in lanes was terrible. I'm so happy that we are now getting these really interesting laning stages now because games are really exciting to watch all the way through, and not just in the last 20 minutes. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 25 2014 07:03 LeLoup wrote: 6.78 was garbage as a person who liked playing offlane. It was a matter of 'hope the enemy is dumb as hell' or just don't even bother and go to jungle. There really wasn't much you could do against a competent trilane and more often than not could get more out of the jungle. Every game that was 3-1-0 in lanes was terrible. I'm so happy that we are now getting these really interesting laning stages now because games are really exciting to watch all the way through, and not just in the last 20 minutes. To be fair, that wasn't actually the product of 6.78, that was the development of off-lane/safe-lane play over the past year or more being taken to its logical extreme. Off-lane play was actually like that as early as TI2, it's just that a very small number of teams had support+carry play that could execute lane control to that level of perfection, whereas by TI3, it was pretty much the norm. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
All the disable/nuke-heavy supports being picked made offlaning a lot worse than current. | ||
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Jinxed
United States6450 Posts
On April 25 2014 07:05 TheYango wrote: To be fair, that wasn't actually the product of 6.78, that was the development of off-lane/safe-lane play over the past year or more being taken to its logical extreme. Off-lane play was actually like that as early as TI2, it's just that a very small number of teams had support+carry play that could execute lane control to that level of perfection, whereas by TI3, it was pretty much the norm. Yeah, I remember you talking about it before. The fact that it got to that point during that version is why I am happy that we're no longer in it. I feel like a lot more tempo control now comes from that lane instead of before where as long as a hero could jungle they could offlane. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 25 2014 07:06 Sn0_Man wrote: Well if AA and dazzle were hot shit as supports in 6.78 you'd see offlaners doing not too badly against them I bet, although AA's harass is mean. All the disable/nuke-heavy supports being picked made offlaning a lot worse than current. AA would still be incredibly suppressive in that 3v1 situation, paired with any other nuke/disable support. He just needs to take Cold Feet level 1, but if Cold Feet connects, it's damage and stun duration are incredibly good for a level 1 skill. AA actually has more contribution to a level 1 kill 3v1 than Rubick does, because Rubick does no damage in a 3v1 off-lane kill--and Rubick got picked a fair bit as a support. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
Yes, it's scaling is almost uniquely good. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On April 25 2014 07:09 Sn0_Man wrote: cold feet's level 1 stun is really nothing special. Yes, it's scaling is almost uniquely good. A Cold Feet that connects does 150 damage, which is well above the norm for rank 1 nukes. There's a pretty small number of rank 1 support hero nukes that do that much damage. The norm is for those skills to do ~100 damage. | ||
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