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On April 25 2014 07:56 Z-BosoN wrote:
So my question is, as a support, is it actually possible to go up in MMR from where I'm at? I'm really considering playing massive amounts of lycan/mid hero games in which it's actually possible to make a difference, given enough games. How long did it take you guys to get to 4.2k+ from where I am now?
It's extremely demotivating, all I want is to play good games with decent players, I don't really care for MMR, but the games I've been having lately are just sad...
I think alot is depends on communication, if your communication as a support is good with a microphone, then i think you can bypass the differences between most players and make the most out of every situation and create more snowball for the team. Communication resulting in a high mmrgain in a short amount of time. Im a scrub tho.
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On April 25 2014 08:17 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 07:56 Z-BosoN wrote:
I feel that even if I was a pro player, I wouldn't be able to change the outcome of the game 90% of the games.
don't feel like this because the second you do, you'll be in the trench forever. If you were a pro, these games would be a stomp (for you). playing a support is unquestionably more difficult to rank up with, but if you're superior to the people you're playing against, it's more than doable to level up playing support. Try playing a more active support, don't baby sit retards, win lanes, gank, make it nearly impossible for your team to lose by giving your team a good start. After all, if everyone sucks, this should be easy to accomplish. Will you still lose? Of course, anyone can throw a big enough lead, but if you play well, win lanes and take charge of your games, you will undoubtedly win more than you lose and thus improve your mmr.
Can you elaborate what you mean at taking charge of your games? A lot of times, I win the lane, gank successfully, get a substantial early game lead but can't win because our carry goes linkens first on a spectre with an omni on the team. Or I win the lane and can't win because we have 4 carries. Etc.
I feel like some games are just unsaveable. I think that the better I am, the more games I can win, of course, but it seems that only applies to a fraction of the games, not all of them.
@Leloup - Very helpful, thanks. You are also bad, by some standard.
Regardless of your choice of words, do you really think that 100% of the games can be decided if one player is good enough? This makes little sense to me, as even pros like arteezy lose all the time in stream. Or are you saying a 5k+ will guarantee 100% of 4k- games?
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He didn't say that at all. Of course you lose games even if you are better but you'll win more than you lose.
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LeLoup is, to some degree, full of shit. I've had games where a lane has, for example, fed Luna a 10 minute Treads BKB. That's not a fucking joke. I wish it was. Your team can definitely make games unwinnable.
My best advice to you is to play supports that can shift up in position if the game demands it. Nyx Assassin is probably the best example of this, because in low-level games, nobody will ever really be able to stop a 4 position Nyx from getting a Dagon and getting kill after kill. On the other hand, if your team is taking proper advantage of farm, you can just get a Blink Dagger and play the hero traditionally. The key to winning with inconsistent allies is to play flexible heroes. For you, this means heroes like Nyx, Shadow Shaman, and even support Mirana and Alchemist if you feel comfortable enough with them. All of these heroes give you the chance to take the game into your own hands even if things get iffy as it goes late.
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On April 25 2014 09:28 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 07:48 BurningSera wrote:
The one thing concerns me is that I hope icefrog plays at least 40% of his games on EU server. Balancing the game solely on US server just doesn't feel right. I keep having this feeling that he used to play mostly on EU but not so much since he started to work for Valve.
I like 6.79 overall (so far), the way the teams draft lately makes so much sense to me now (i havent felt like that since pre-TI3), and for pub games the current metagame is acceptable to me but I am not enjoying it very much (basically too one sided for both sides, mainly thanks to ranked MM, i believe), even though i really dont care much about the win/loss nowadays.
And I am not too sure if I like the ridiculous amount of income in 6.79 lol, it is especially noticeable when you are on non-farming heroes (you are supposed to have a lot of income keep coming in on #1-3 anyway), after a few early towers or winning 1/2 team fights suddenly you have near 2k gold in bank, =<15mins dagger/forcestraff is almost standard nowadays when you play a rather selfish support, <20mins mek on #5 is everywhere nowadays >_> The timing of necro3 on a hardlaner can be ridiculously early in some slight advantaged game, like =<20mins (with arcane and basic items).
That affects pro games hugely because while item's timing is still critical as always, (bad) item choices are rather forgivable now since you can 'compensate' it by getting the next item sooner than before. So if the player had a good gold management before the patch he would be swimming like a fish in this patch - do some ridiculous items timing from some pro support players ring a bell? You do realize balancing on purposes of servers is an incredebly stupid idea. China servers: All carries get 20% less farm Na servers: middle lane spawns random minion EU servers: Ban russians from picking heros
No I meant it is more like some game changes are based on the actual pub game observation/experience from Icefrog.
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On April 25 2014 09:53 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 08:17 crms wrote:On April 25 2014 07:56 Z-BosoN wrote:
I feel that even if I was a pro player, I wouldn't be able to change the outcome of the game 90% of the games.
don't feel like this because the second you do, you'll be in the trench forever. If you were a pro, these games would be a stomp (for you). playing a support is unquestionably more difficult to rank up with, but if you're superior to the people you're playing against, it's more than doable to level up playing support. Try playing a more active support, don't baby sit retards, win lanes, gank, make it nearly impossible for your team to lose by giving your team a good start. After all, if everyone sucks, this should be easy to accomplish. Will you still lose? Of course, anyone can throw a big enough lead, but if you play well, win lanes and take charge of your games, you will undoubtedly win more than you lose and thus improve your mmr. Can you elaborate what you mean at taking charge of your games? A lot of times, I win the lane, gank successfully, get a substantial early game lead but can't win because our carry goes linkens first on a spectre with an omni on the team. Or I win the lane and can't win because we have 4 carries. Etc. I feel like some games are just unsaveable. I think that the better I am, the more games I can win, of course, but it seems that only applies to a fraction of the games, not all of them. @Leloup - Very helpful, thanks. You are also bad, by some standard. Regardless of your choice of words, do you really think that 100% of the games can be decided if one player is good enough? This makes little sense to me, as even pros like arteezy lose all the time in stream. Or are you saying a 5k+ will guarantee 100% of 4k- games?
I am bad, worse than you in fact if we're going strictly by numbers.
The point is it doesn't matter what you play. The key is always the same. How did you actually impact the game that you were in? I find a lot of times people who claim to play nothing but support often have no idea of what that actually means, nor do they understand how to impact the game as the hero they are playing.
As a support more than any other role in the game your impact in the first 10 minutes is game changing. How you play that out often times means the difference between winning and losing. And if you actually are 300 points below where you 'should' be then the game should be even easier for you because there is a ton that you can do for your team during that time.
Big questions to always ask yourself (especially on a support, but it can go for any position) are 1) How is the enemy farming? 2) How is my carry farming? 3) Is there anything I can do to change either one of those?
I won't say 100% because that would be ridiculous. However it has been proven time and again that the system has you where you should be for the most part and the only thing that is constant from game to game is you.
On April 25 2014 10:04 Acritter wrote:
LeLoup is, to some degree, full of shit. I've had games where a lane has, for example, fed Luna a 10 minute Treads BKB. That's not a fucking joke. I wish it was. Your team can definitely make games unwinnable.
My best advice to you is to play supports that can shift up in position if the game demands it. Nyx Assassin is probably the best example of this, because in low-level games, nobody will ever really be able to stop a 4 position Nyx from getting a Dagon and getting kill after kill. On the other hand, if your team is taking proper advantage of farm, you can just get a Blink Dagger and play the hero traditionally. The key to winning with inconsistent allies is to play flexible heroes. For you, this means heroes like Nyx, Shadow Shaman, and even support Mirana and Alchemist if you feel comfortable enough with them. All of these heroes give you the chance to take the game into your own hands even if things get iffy as it goes late.
People who don't understand how to play the early game (the actual early game that is) often say this. No you can't control every idiot you get matched with, but you can certainly make just as big of an impact with heroes that don't scale at all if you play it right.
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why do ppl never go basher on ember i think its hilarious
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On April 25 2014 09:53 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 08:17 crms wrote:On April 25 2014 07:56 Z-BosoN wrote:
I feel that even if I was a pro player, I wouldn't be able to change the outcome of the game 90% of the games.
don't feel like this because the second you do, you'll be in the trench forever. If you were a pro, these games would be a stomp (for you). playing a support is unquestionably more difficult to rank up with, but if you're superior to the people you're playing against, it's more than doable to level up playing support. Try playing a more active support, don't baby sit retards, win lanes, gank, make it nearly impossible for your team to lose by giving your team a good start. After all, if everyone sucks, this should be easy to accomplish. Will you still lose? Of course, anyone can throw a big enough lead, but if you play well, win lanes and take charge of your games, you will undoubtedly win more than you lose and thus improve your mmr. Can you elaborate what you mean at taking charge of your games? A lot of times, I win the lane, gank successfully, get a substantial early game lead but can't win because our carry goes linkens first on a spectre with an omni on the team. Or I win the lane and can't win because we have 4 carries. Etc. I feel like some games are just unsaveable. I think that the better I am, the more games I can win, of course, but it seems that only applies to a fraction of the games, not all of them. @Leloup - Very helpful, thanks. You are also bad, by some standard. Regardless of your choice of words, do you really think that 100% of the games can be decided if one player is good enough? This makes little sense to me, as even pros like arteezy lose all the time in stream. Or are you saying a 5k+ will guarantee 100% of 4k- games?
It doesn't what you play, you will be able to climb up mmr. However, the speed of climbing up mmr differs on different roles, which is reasonable, and then you know, luck is also a factor in dota.
If anything, that playdota guy who climbed mmr from 3k to near 5k proved that it is doable, in about 100+ games, with mid/carry heroes that he is (very) good at. Do you see where is this going?
When you play some passive support that relies on your #1-3 players to actually win the game for you, you would at best having a 50/50 chance to win your games. While let's say you are in <4k mmr range, where most players can't carry properly and you go professional support, you might be still at 50/50 chance to win that game; if you are in the mmr range where more than 50% of the players can actually carry/mid and then you give professional support, your chances of winning obviously is higher than the previous case.
And then it depends on how proactive you are as a support, how good/bad of your team mates, your line up etc, there are simply too many factors to decide a win/loss. You can own early game very hard by doing tonnes of work and then you win 4v5 without your shitty carry player in team or sometimes 3v5. Or when I gave perfect support, won every lanes for the carry/mid/hardlane and then perfect item timings/warding, team lost in the end.
Stop pigeon hole yourself on 'i will only play support' because ranked MM is about 'I will play the heroes that I am good at owning the opponents', regardless what role it is.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On April 25 2014 10:21 BurningSera wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 09:53 Z-BosoN wrote:On April 25 2014 08:17 crms wrote:On April 25 2014 07:56 Z-BosoN wrote:
I feel that even if I was a pro player, I wouldn't be able to change the outcome of the game 90% of the games.
don't feel like this because the second you do, you'll be in the trench forever. If you were a pro, these games would be a stomp (for you). playing a support is unquestionably more difficult to rank up with, but if you're superior to the people you're playing against, it's more than doable to level up playing support. Try playing a more active support, don't baby sit retards, win lanes, gank, make it nearly impossible for your team to lose by giving your team a good start. After all, if everyone sucks, this should be easy to accomplish. Will you still lose? Of course, anyone can throw a big enough lead, but if you play well, win lanes and take charge of your games, you will undoubtedly win more than you lose and thus improve your mmr. Can you elaborate what you mean at taking charge of your games? A lot of times, I win the lane, gank successfully, get a substantial early game lead but can't win because our carry goes linkens first on a spectre with an omni on the team. Or I win the lane and can't win because we have 4 carries. Etc. I feel like some games are just unsaveable. I think that the better I am, the more games I can win, of course, but it seems that only applies to a fraction of the games, not all of them. @Leloup - Very helpful, thanks. You are also bad, by some standard. Regardless of your choice of words, do you really think that 100% of the games can be decided if one player is good enough? This makes little sense to me, as even pros like arteezy lose all the time in stream. Or are you saying a 5k+ will guarantee 100% of 4k- games? It doesn't what you play, you will be able to climb up mmr. However, the speed of climbing up mmr differs on different roles, which is reasonable, and then you know, luck is also a factor in dota. If anything, that playdota guy who climbed mmr from 3k to near 5k proved that it is doable, in about 100+ games, with mid/carry heroes that he is (very) good at. Do you see where is this going? When you play some passive support that relies on your #1-3 players to actually win the game for you, you would at best having a 50/50 chance to win your games. While let's say you are in <4k mmr range, where most players can't carry properly and you go professional support, you might be still at 50/50 chance to win that game; if you are in the mmr range where more than 50% of the players can actually carry/mid and then you give professional support, your chances of winning obviously is higher than the previous case. And then it depends on how proactive you are as a support, how good/bad of your team mates, your line up etc, there are simply too many factors to decide a win/loss. You can own early game very hard by doing tonnes of work and then you win 4v5 without your shitty carry player in team or sometimes 3v5. Or when I gave perfect support, won every lanes for the carry/mid/hardlane and then perfect item timings/warding, team lost in the end. Stop pigeon hole yourself on 'i will only play support' because ranked MM is about 'I will play the heroes that I am good at owning the opponents', regardless what role it is.
nicely said, it strange that there are people refusing to play what's going to win in ranked because of some abstract sense of honour, reminds me of the west's hate for cheese in sc2.
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being high mmr with phoenix and tb is like being gm as protoss
ur fucking shit
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
fucking protoss
4gate never forget
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On April 25 2014 10:39 teddyoojo wrote:
being high mmr with phoenix and tb is like being gm as protoss
ur fucking shit
5k solo mmr LOOKING FOR TEAM, look at dotabuff 3 pages of phoenix, oh boy.
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United States47024 Posts
On April 25 2014 10:19 teddyoojo wrote:
why do ppl never go basher on ember i think its hilarious
Basher has a CD, so if your Bash procs on a creep, the rest of your Sleight won't bash anyone.
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On April 25 2014 10:57 Targe wrote:
fucking protoss
4gate never forget
lol
@Boson other key things to a "speedier" recovery imho are
- try to avoid dwelling too much on your teammates being horrible, it'll only hurt you more, cause frustration and poorer play. Just blow it off like oh well shit happens. See it as a challenge to see if you can turn the game. Don't get into arguments with team either even if they flame you while being 1-10 themselves.
- it is my opinion that you need to adjust your play-style a bit to the new trend of teammates. The "good" teammates you had before probably did most of their "jobs" and picked up some of your slack (and u some of theirs but not much). That style will not be suited to the team that lacks similar coordination etc. You may need to get more active, pick up more slack, or even be more selfish, depending on the situation. It's almost as if you are in a new patch/new game; adjust.
Those two things seem to be helping me a bit. You can't win all games, but can certainly climb back up as a support, Unfortunately for you, without some luck and a major win streak it will take awhile. Even at 60% win-rate it will take you roughly 50 games to make up 250 mmr (30w 20L)
Also I wish ppl would stop bringing ppl like Juice or DrPanda etc as examples. It really doesn't apply to people that are not as good. If you give my acct to someone like that, sure they'll bring it up fast. But if you give it to someone with 35-3600 mmr, from where I've dropped, they might be stuck for awhile or even go on a short lose-streak before adjusting
Besides I've been doing fine @ keeping Panda below 5k;)
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my friend said a big patch is supposed to be released this week
confirm/deny pls ;_; dont want to be trolled
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confirmed
icefrog is about to patch in 2 gb of hats
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Not 100% on this week but pretty likely
STS have had this stuff (and more) to translate:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3UtJN5W.png)
And there's been items on the workshop that haven't been made private properly which are supposedly* tied in to whatever the next event is
*According to Reddit
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On April 25 2014 07:56 Z-BosoN wrote:
I'm having a lot of doubts regarding the MMR system, I was wondering if someone could clear this up.
When I was 4k - 4.1k, the percetnage of people that played decently was fairly high, I can tell that this is where my real level was due to the level of the people playing.
Out of nowhere, however, I started getting consecutive idiots on my team, and I mean toxic, retarded, bad, and abandoning sort of idiots, that single-handedly cause you to lose the game. So that made me go on a 1-9 losing streak, and I dropped down to 3800.
20+ games later, I'm still at 3750, and the quantity of bad players is MUCH higher. It seems that the games are really one sided, whichever team has the most idiots loses. I feel that even if I was a pro player, I wouldn't be able to change the outcome of the game 90% of the games.
So my question is, as a support, is it actually possible to go up in MMR from where I'm at? I'm really considering playing massive amounts of lycan/mid hero games in which it's actually possible to make a difference, given enough games. How long did it take you guys to get to 4.2k+ from where I am now?
It's extremely demotivating, all I want is to play good games with decent players, I don't really care for MMR, but the games I've been having lately are just sad...
Mass games on 1 hero is how you do it. I have 3 heroes with 100+ games over 1000 total and that's how I got to 4.4k. Definitely wouldn't have made it past 4k by choosing a different hero every game.
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Also, don't expect all your teammates to suddenly be significantly better just because you went up a bunch in mmr. You'll still see terrible picks and terrible item choices, though the mistake might not be as terrible as the linken sphere spectre, it can still have similar affect on the game since smaller things matter more.
When you guys are solo queuing do you do all pick or captains mode?
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On April 25 2014 11:17 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2014 10:19 teddyoojo wrote:
why do ppl never go basher on ember i think its hilarious Basher has a CD, so if your Bash procs on a creep, the rest of your Sleight won't bash anyone.
but once u finish abyssal u can abyssal a guy while sofing
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EPT
