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On April 07 2014 16:31 Jaaaaasper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2014 16:28 ch33psh33p wrote:
How's it dumb, c9 has fucking 3 European players.
They alternate server choices.
PPD is the biggest whiny bitch in all of esports right now. Its dumb because they pick na vs eu teams, and pick eu vs na teams. They shouldn't be allowed to do that.
Why is it dumb? They're at a disadvantage to NA teams on NA servers and a disadvantage to EU teams on EU servers. Clearly when it's their choice they should play on NA against EU teams and EU against NA teams - anything else would be stupid. If tournaments want to change the rules that's up to them, but if the rules allow teams to pick their server then of course C9 will pick the one that is advantageous to them just like every other team out there.
I mean, the advantage C9 get on EU vs NA/NA vs EU is smaller than other teams get when they pick server. This is not C9 coming up with some cunning ploy to get a huge advantage, this is them mitigating the fact that otherwise they'd be at a large ping disadvantage literally every game they play. Maybe you think that's how it should be for truly international teams - that they should just have a disadvantage every game - I don't know. Fact is, C9 alternating server is the policy that mitigates ping advantage in a series more than if they only picked one, and thus is "fairer" if we judge fairness to be about making the better team win.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
No other team does this. If they did, then fnatic/alliance would pick USE against Empire. Because it gives them a bigger advantage than playing on EU. But, they're not assholes, and they probably wouldn't be allowed to in most tournaments anyway (because it's not as grey of a problem as C9 is).
Ultimately, C9 is 'allowed to' pick it, and one could say that if they can get an advantage in an area then they should do it. I personally don't believe that just because you 'can' means that you 'should'. But the root of the problem is shitty rules, not shitty sportsmanship.
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But again, I have little reason to believe PPD's tweet is correct. Charlie might have been fucking with them, or PPD is trolling. All the current data states that D2L is USE only for this match-up.
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Nearly all T3 & T4 level tournaments lock the servers, unless both teams agree on playing on a different server.
It is a shame for tourney organizers not C9.
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On April 07 2014 20:30 teapoted wrote:
No other team does this. If they did, then fnatic/alliance would pick USE against Empire. Because it gives them a bigger advantage than playing on EU. But, they're not assholes, and they probably wouldn't be allowed to in most tournaments anyway (because it's not as grey of a problem as C9 is).
Ultimately, C9 is 'allowed to' pick it, and one could say that if they can get an advantage in an area then they should do it. I personally don't believe that just because you 'can' means that you 'should'. But the root of the problem is shitty rules, not shitty sportsmanship.
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But again, I have little reason to believe PPD's tweet is correct. Charlie might have been fucking with them, or PPD is trolling. All the current data states that D2L is USE only for this match-up.
Nobody on Fnatic gets 300 ping on EU servers so that's very different.
Again, C9 is at a disadvantage if they don't alternate servers. The same is not true for other teams. One team has to have ping disadvantage in their games so how is it being an asshole to make it so that it's not always your own team?
Edit: Ping is an issue in all of C9's games whatever anyone does. You're coming up with a scenario where a team makes an issue of it. That's the fundamental difference.
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C9 tries hard, plays to win, why they'd give freebies ?
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
What you're saying is irrelevant.
Their decisions are based on the fact that they want an advantage. That they are geographically challenged doesn't change the fact that they are putting their opponents at a disadvantage. Every other team plays where they can play best (and are allowed to play), not where their opponent will play worst.
That is undeniably unsportsmanlike. They are the ones with issues, they shouldn't offload their problems on the other team. They still can, they have reasons to, that's not really relevant as no one is saying they are breaking rules.
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offlane winrunner delays notails bottle by a minute to courier herself a magic stick and gets courier killed. ahahahah aint that just the perfect representation of dumpster tier games
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On April 07 2014 20:58 teapoted wrote:
What you're saying is irrelevant.
Their decisions are based on the fact that they want an advantage. That they are geographically challenged doesn't change the fact that they are putting their opponents at a disadvantage. Every other team plays where they can play best (and are allowed to play), not where their opponent will play worst.
That is undeniably unsportsmanlike. They are the ones with issues, they shouldn't offload their problems on the other team.
How is it irrelevant that one team has to have an advantage in their games and so, if C9 has a choice, they're obviously going to make sure it's them? How is that the same as someone manufacturing an advantage through server that doesn't need to exist at all? How is it unsportsmanlike?
Saying something is undeniable doesn't make it so.
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On April 07 2014 20:58 teapoted wrote:
What you're saying is irrelevant.
Their decisions are based on the fact that they want an advantage. That they are geographically challenged doesn't change the fact that they are putting their opponents at a disadvantage. Every other team plays where they can play best (and are allowed to play), not where their opponent will play worst.
That is undeniably unsportsmanlike. They are the ones with issues, they shouldn't offload their problems on the other team. They still can, they have reasons to, that's not really relevant as no one is saying they are breaking rules.
Nice job completely missing the point.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On April 07 2014 21:03 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2014 20:58 teapoted wrote:
What you're saying is irrelevant.
Their decisions are based on the fact that they want an advantage. That they are geographically challenged doesn't change the fact that they are putting their opponents at a disadvantage. Every other team plays where they can play best (and are allowed to play), not where their opponent will play worst.
That is undeniably unsportsmanlike. They are the ones with issues, they shouldn't offload their problems on the other team. How is it irrelevant that one team has to have an advantage in their games and so, if C9 has a choice, they're obviously going to make sure it's them? How is that the same as someone manufacturing an advantage through server that doesn't need to exist at all? How is it unsportsmanlike? Saying something is undeniable doesn't make it so. If you don't understand why it's unsportsmanlike to purposely pick something that's worse for yourself only because it's worse for your opponent then I'm going to drop that, pointless to even talk about that with you.
Look, here is the problem. As it currently is, if C9 can choose then they can NEVER play at a disadvantage. Why is that?
Well because C9 is less effected by servers than any other team in Dota. So if C9 get to pick a server that's worse for them just so they can fuck over their opponent. Then when you play on your opponents server that team doesn't have nearly the same advantage because C9's arguably better on that server anyway.
So, when you average that out, they will always net a 'arbitrary advantage metric' higher than the other team. Always. Is that fair? No, they're the odd ones out, they should have one home server like everyone else. Their issue is that they aren't as strong on their own server compared to others because they don't really have their own? Well that's their problem, not the other teams. The tradeoff for having a cross-region line-up is that they will still be on average better on both servers. And without rules, then it's not a tradeoff, then they're just abusing the system.
You can disagree with me if you want, but tournaments clearly don't as they stopped letting them do this.
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So I got to know: what does CIS stand for?
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On April 07 2014 16:28 ch33psh33p wrote:
PPD is the biggest whiny bitch in all of esports right now.
i got warned for that 
also c9 picking eu vs na and use vs eu is simply fair
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On April 07 2014 21:15 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2014 21:03 FuzzyJAM wrote:On April 07 2014 20:58 teapoted wrote:
What you're saying is irrelevant.
Their decisions are based on the fact that they want an advantage. That they are geographically challenged doesn't change the fact that they are putting their opponents at a disadvantage. Every other team plays where they can play best (and are allowed to play), not where their opponent will play worst.
That is undeniably unsportsmanlike. They are the ones with issues, they shouldn't offload their problems on the other team. How is it irrelevant that one team has to have an advantage in their games and so, if C9 has a choice, they're obviously going to make sure it's them? How is that the same as someone manufacturing an advantage through server that doesn't need to exist at all? How is it unsportsmanlike? Saying something is undeniable doesn't make it so. If you don't understand why it's unsportsmanlike to purposely pick something that's worse for yourself only because it's worse for your opponent then I'm going to drop that, pointless to even talk about that with you. Look, here is the problem. As it currently is, if C9 can choose then they can NEVER play at a disadvantage. Why is that? Well because C9 is less effected by servers than any other team in Dota. So if C9 get to pick a server that's worse for them just so they can fuck over their opponent. Then when you play on your opponents server that team doesn't have nearly the same advantage because C9's arguably better on that server anyway. So, when you average that out, they will always net a 'arbitrary advantage metric' higher than the other team. Always. Is that fair? No, they're the odd ones out, they should have one home server like everyone else. Their issue is that they aren't as strong on their own server compared to others because they don't really have their own? Well that's their problem, not the other teams. The tradeoff for having a cross-region line-up is that they will still be on average better on both servers. And without rules, then it's not a tradeoff, then they're just abusing the system. You can disagree with me if you want, but tournaments clearly don't as they stopped letting them do this.
None of this provides a substantial reason as to why C9 would or should behave differently. C9 doesn't owe a duty to any other team. They do what is best for their own team in accordance with the rules. If tournament organizers have a problem with this they can change the rules, but in the absence of those actions I'm not sure what exactly compels C9 to make things easier for their opponents.
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On April 07 2014 21:22 CruelZeratul wrote:
So I got to know: what does CIS stand for?
also a 2nd tier chinese team
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On April 07 2014 21:33 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2014 21:15 teapoted wrote:On April 07 2014 21:03 FuzzyJAM wrote:On April 07 2014 20:58 teapoted wrote:
What you're saying is irrelevant.
Their decisions are based on the fact that they want an advantage. That they are geographically challenged doesn't change the fact that they are putting their opponents at a disadvantage. Every other team plays where they can play best (and are allowed to play), not where their opponent will play worst.
That is undeniably unsportsmanlike. They are the ones with issues, they shouldn't offload their problems on the other team. How is it irrelevant that one team has to have an advantage in their games and so, if C9 has a choice, they're obviously going to make sure it's them? How is that the same as someone manufacturing an advantage through server that doesn't need to exist at all? How is it unsportsmanlike? Saying something is undeniable doesn't make it so. If you don't understand why it's unsportsmanlike to purposely pick something that's worse for yourself only because it's worse for your opponent then I'm going to drop that, pointless to even talk about that with you. Look, here is the problem. As it currently is, if C9 can choose then they can NEVER play at a disadvantage. Why is that? Well because C9 is less effected by servers than any other team in Dota. So if C9 get to pick a server that's worse for them just so they can fuck over their opponent. Then when you play on your opponents server that team doesn't have nearly the same advantage because C9's arguably better on that server anyway. So, when you average that out, they will always net a 'arbitrary advantage metric' higher than the other team. Always. Is that fair? No, they're the odd ones out, they should have one home server like everyone else. Their issue is that they aren't as strong on their own server compared to others because they don't really have their own? Well that's their problem, not the other teams. The tradeoff for having a cross-region line-up is that they will still be on average better on both servers. And without rules, then it's not a tradeoff, then they're just abusing the system. You can disagree with me if you want, but tournaments clearly don't as they stopped letting them do this. None of this provides a substantial reason as to why C9 would or should behave differently. C9 doesn't owe a duty to any other team. They do what is best for their own team in accordance with the rules. If tournament organizers have a problem with this they can change the rules, but in the absence of those actions I'm not sure what exactly compels C9 to make things easier for their opponents. I've said multiple times that they are allowed to do this and the problem isn't that they did do it.
I gave reasons for why it shouldn't be allowed, not why they shouldn't do it if they are allowed to. If a team does something in accordance to the rules which is questionable, the problem is always with the rules, not the team. People are however fully within their right to lose respect for teams even if they do things according to the rules that they find questionable.
For example SL has wild cards. And you know your opponent is going to China to play for 3 months the day after your match with them. So you use your wild card that day solely for the purpose of delaying the match so the other team is forced to forfeit or play from China. That's perfectly legal as far as I'm aware, since what casters have said about wild cards in the past is that they can be used for 'anything'. So, the team would be assholes, but ultimately the problem would be that you don't need good cause to use the wild card. (if that's the case I don't know, it's just an example)
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On April 07 2014 21:40 Grettin wrote:Thats a vulture, yes.
cheers
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On April 07 2014 21:15 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2014 21:03 FuzzyJAM wrote:On April 07 2014 20:58 teapoted wrote:
What you're saying is irrelevant.
Their decisions are based on the fact that they want an advantage. That they are geographically challenged doesn't change the fact that they are putting their opponents at a disadvantage. Every other team plays where they can play best (and are allowed to play), not where their opponent will play worst.
That is undeniably unsportsmanlike. They are the ones with issues, they shouldn't offload their problems on the other team. How is it irrelevant that one team has to have an advantage in their games and so, if C9 has a choice, they're obviously going to make sure it's them? How is that the same as someone manufacturing an advantage through server that doesn't need to exist at all? How is it unsportsmanlike? Saying something is undeniable doesn't make it so. If you don't understand why it's unsportsmanlike to purposely pick something that's worse for yourself only because it's worse for your opponent then I'm going to drop that, pointless to even talk about that with you. Look, here is the problem. As it currently is, if C9 can choose then they can NEVER play at a disadvantage. Why is that? Well because C9 is less effected by servers than any other team in Dota. So if C9 get to pick a server that's worse for them just so they can fuck over their opponent. Then when you play on your opponents server that team doesn't have nearly the same advantage because C9's arguably better on that server anyway. So, when you average that out, they will always net a 'arbitrary advantage metric' higher than the other team. Always. Is that fair? No, they're the odd ones out, they should have one home server like everyone else. Their issue is that they aren't as strong on their own server compared to others because they don't really have their own? Well that's their problem, not the other teams. The tradeoff for having a cross-region line-up is that they will still be on average better on both servers. And without rules, then it's not a tradeoff, then they're just abusing the system. You can disagree with me if you want, but tournaments clearly don't as they stopped letting them do this.
With alternating servers C9 doesn't have an overall advantage in pings in the slightest so the basis of your argument is just wrong.
Yes, they have less of a disadvantage on NA servers against NA teams (and same with EU and EU) but they also have less of an advantage on NA servers against EU teams (and same with EU servers against NA teams). It evens out. That's the whole point. Their overall dis/advantage is no greater or lesser if they alternate servers than anyone who always picks the same one. If they were forced to only pick one server then they would consistently be at a disadvantage, and that's really the whole point. Why is it unsportsmanlike to expect they get the same levels of advantage or disadvantage as every other team when it comes to servers?
If you want to say "Well it's better for the tournament that they just lose out" then that's a separate, and somewhat reasonable, point. But to call it unsportsmanlike to not choose to always be at a disadvantage is just odd to me.
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To put it in an oversimplified way: They are chosing their server based on what messes with the enemy team the most and not on where they're playing the best at, and that's the problem. I'd probably do the same if I was allowed to, but that's where the unsportsmanship comes in.
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EPT
