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On February 26 2014 03:56 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 03:21 njt7 wrote:On February 26 2014 03:13 Zarathusta wrote:
The midding/ganking discussion was pretty enlightening to me. As a ~400 game new player, I don't often mid, but I find that when I do there is a lot of pressure on me to gank the sidelanes, especially if they are losing that lane (feeding). When I do attempt a gank, sometimes they hug the tower, sometimes they countergank, sometimes I screw up and get killed bad, sometimes I trade 1 for 1, and sometimes it is successful.
Overall, I would say if I try to improve my judgement on when to leave lane to gank, and execute successfully when I do, I would be a much more effective mid player. I will feel less pressured now to gank everytime my team calls for it. One of the easiest way to give your team an advantage from the mid lane is to get the tower down, this is easiest done with dk, dp, rhasta. Id say this is one of the safest way to play mid. Just farm until your opponent tries to gank then you kill the tower. Now you basicly have 3 choices, try to get another tower down (buy a teamfight item), try to kill heroes (buy a positining item blink or shadowblade or something) or farm for something bigger. Sure some games your teammates will flame you for not winning their lanes for them now we have three choices mute them, ignore them or try to "reason" with them. I think we all know whats more sensible. It's even simpler than that. One of the easiest ways to give your team an advantage from mid is to *win mid*. It seems simple but a lot of pub players in mid don't know how to totally suppress the opponent mid, even in a situation where they're winning and give the enemy mid more space in the lane/game than they should. If you crush your lane mid, it reduces the pressure on your sidelanes because the gank threat from the opposing mid is weaker due to his lack of items/levels, and because the opposing mid cannot secure vision of you as easily if you have control of the lane, the enemy sidelanes still have to play around your gank threat. Often in pub mid lanes, players don't establish firm control of the lane before trying to gank. Because of this, one of three things often happens when they gank which destroys any advantage they had: 1) They get counterganked, killed, and are now behind in the lane they were ahead in, as well as potentially putting the lane they ganked for behind 2) They succeed in ganking, but the gold/XP they got from the gank doesn't outweigh the gold/XP the enemy mid got from their free-farm time mid. They put a sidelane ahead at the cost of no longer being ahead mid. 3) Their gank fails, and they let the mid the were ahead against get free-farm time. They didn't put a lane ahead, and are now behind in a lane they were winning.
That's probably the #1 mistake alot of people make when they play mid. They don't understand why it's so important to suppress the enemy mid, because in the mid game, your 2 becomes really important since they have all the gold and exp. Unless you're just crushing the enemy mid, or you get an opportunity (like a haste rune or an invis rune), you should just stay mid and keep winning it. In the end, you will come out ahead because you will have more levels and farm than the other guy. I've had plenty of games where I'm playing a strong laner like Invoker/OD and I simply come out ahead despite my team getting ganked a few times. In the end, 90% of the time I'm winning those games (unless your team repeatedly feeds, in which case you were hopeless from the start) simply due to stronger midgame items than anyone else in that game.
This is also why lots of people fail on OD in pubs (and why his win ratio isn't alot higher despite being a pub stomper of the century). They don't win mid as hard as they should (like literally denying 95% of the creeps when they should be able to).
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Offered a few pages of random commons and uncommons that I don't use, plus a couple of duplicate rares.
Got back a Rare Juggernaut sword and two chests with dropped a Rare CK mount and a Rare Bristleback set of spines, plus a nametag. Think I'll take that.
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I honestly think pubs have too many variables to make statements like that. If you have sidelanes that are feeding, it's often as good a choice as any to gank and stem the bleeding, because if you play it straight your teammates will have fed away your incremental advantage anyway.
It's not your fault that they are feeding, but you are, at that point, often the only player with the power to do anything about it.
As mid, your only real job is to take the game in your hands. You direct your level advantage at the point where it will best affect the outcome of the game. Sometimes that involves spending your advantage it to try to turn a 0-3 sidelane into a 2-3 sidelane. You risk the later disadvantage to reverse the immediate one. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but farming out lanes which have fed away your midgame advantage is seldom a good idea.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Its not often a good choice because the chance of it working unless you have a lucky rune/countergank tp and the value you get out of it(as the enemy mid can recover mid) is more then often not worth delaying a crucial item. Having a QoP with a 15min Orchid is incredibly strong of a threat. Remember that if you dominated mid very hard, then by virtue of having won it you will put pressure on the sidelanes to stop you or be wary of you who has a strong midgame timing.
Remember that even enemy pubs have brains and they may have wards/miss calls, not every gank you do will succeed(Thus rune ganking, smoke ganking or counterganking is really when you want to do it) and if it does not only will you be set back in item timing, your opponent mid can catch up.
Oh and regardless, OD is an interesting example of a typical mid hero as he is one of the heroes who is simply build around winning the lane and putting pressure on the sidelanes to come gank him, he roams very little(and if you do you are +6 and have a haste rune) much like Night Stalker is build around breaking even/losing the lane but making up for it with ganking/putting pressure everywhere.
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Northern Ireland1200 Posts
I offered a few of them ingolts things. Got description and name tag. lol
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On February 26 2014 21:18 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 03:56 TheYango wrote:On February 26 2014 03:21 njt7 wrote:On February 26 2014 03:13 Zarathusta wrote:
The midding/ganking discussion was pretty enlightening to me. As a ~400 game new player, I don't often mid, but I find that when I do there is a lot of pressure on me to gank the sidelanes, especially if they are losing that lane (feeding). When I do attempt a gank, sometimes they hug the tower, sometimes they countergank, sometimes I screw up and get killed bad, sometimes I trade 1 for 1, and sometimes it is successful.
Overall, I would say if I try to improve my judgement on when to leave lane to gank, and execute successfully when I do, I would be a much more effective mid player. I will feel less pressured now to gank everytime my team calls for it. One of the easiest way to give your team an advantage from the mid lane is to get the tower down, this is easiest done with dk, dp, rhasta. Id say this is one of the safest way to play mid. Just farm until your opponent tries to gank then you kill the tower. Now you basicly have 3 choices, try to get another tower down (buy a teamfight item), try to kill heroes (buy a positining item blink or shadowblade or something) or farm for something bigger. Sure some games your teammates will flame you for not winning their lanes for them now we have three choices mute them, ignore them or try to "reason" with them. I think we all know whats more sensible. It's even simpler than that. One of the easiest ways to give your team an advantage from mid is to *win mid*. It seems simple but a lot of pub players in mid don't know how to totally suppress the opponent mid, even in a situation where they're winning and give the enemy mid more space in the lane/game than they should. If you crush your lane mid, it reduces the pressure on your sidelanes because the gank threat from the opposing mid is weaker due to his lack of items/levels, and because the opposing mid cannot secure vision of you as easily if you have control of the lane, the enemy sidelanes still have to play around your gank threat. Often in pub mid lanes, players don't establish firm control of the lane before trying to gank. Because of this, one of three things often happens when they gank which destroys any advantage they had: 1) They get counterganked, killed, and are now behind in the lane they were ahead in, as well as potentially putting the lane they ganked for behind 2) They succeed in ganking, but the gold/XP they got from the gank doesn't outweigh the gold/XP the enemy mid got from their free-farm time mid. They put a sidelane ahead at the cost of no longer being ahead mid. 3) Their gank fails, and they let the mid the were ahead against get free-farm time. They didn't put a lane ahead, and are now behind in a lane they were winning. That's probably the #1 mistake alot of people make when they play mid. They don't understand why it's so important to suppress the enemy mid, because in the mid game, your 2 becomes really important since they have all the gold and exp. Unless you're just crushing the enemy mid, or you get an opportunity (like a haste rune or an invis rune), you should just stay mid and keep winning it. In the end, you will come out ahead because you will have more levels and farm than the other guy. I've had plenty of games where I'm playing a strong laner like Invoker/OD and I simply come out ahead despite my team getting ganked a few times. In the end, 90% of the time I'm winning those games (unless your team repeatedly feeds, in which case you were hopeless from the start) simply due to stronger midgame items than anyone else in that game. This is also why lots of people fail on OD in pubs (and why his win ratio isn't alot higher despite being a pub stomper of the century). They don't win mid as hard as they should (like literally denying 95% of the creeps when they should be able to).
When you look at the mids who play very defensively focusing on last hitting (as if they were afraid of each other) when one of them could have owned the lane very hard (chase one completely out of the lane while getting all the lh/deny), that's the 95% of pub games in general. And that happens more than 50% of the time in pro games as well.
Not to mention that the mids in pub often don't pay enough attention to what's going on to the map/sidelanes/jungle, they need to keep in mind that there are 'ticking bombs' everywhere on the map if he didnt do anything about it. Well, in fairness you can't really blame everything on the mid either, how many times have you seen the sidelane support/carry were blind when you gank the lane and ping 1000times to alert them to throw that stun. And throw in a jungler who does nothing but sucks the blood out of your team.
The bottomline is, i simply wish there are more mids who would get a goddamn TP when they are cour bottling, so that when we pinged hard on our lane he would tp in to help us.
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It works because it doesn't really matter what you build on lich just as long as you get mek for your team.
Another reason for the build working is because its a pub game obviously.
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If he goes offlane, he pretty much can do w/e he wants in pubs as long as he gets a mek. Pubs have no clue how to deal with lich offlane
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Northern Ireland22213 Posts
So that's the secret to easy mmr...
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The bottomline is, i simply wish there are more mids who would get a goddamn TP when they are cour bottling, so that when we pinged hard on our lane he would tp in to help us.
The bottomline is, i simply wish there were more supports who would get a goddamn TP, smoke or just walk over to you so that you can get an easy kill on the enemy mid and steamroll from there... Especially in a "bad" matchup.
Btw: A lich coming for a gank with Phase/Mom/Mek sounds actually pretty scary... He's fast, he slows you, he hits hard and he most probably will have these items earlier than most other heroes... Just going at him is also not that simple cause of his ult... If you don't see him coming that will hurt...
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United States47024 Posts
On February 26 2014 22:29 BurningSera wrote:
When you look at the mids who play very defensively focusing on last hitting (as if they were afraid of each other) when one of them could have owned the lane very hard (chase one completely out of the lane while getting all the lh/deny), that's the 95% of pub games in general. And that happens more than 50% of the time in pro games as well.
In pro games it's at least in part a product of much more active support play, which keeps the level of aggression honest because you don't want to overcommit into a gank.
Pub supports tend to stay on lane much more often and telegraph their ganks much more clearly, so this really is not an excuse in pub play at most levels.
On February 26 2014 22:08 Belisarius wrote:
I honestly think pubs have too many variables to make statements like that. If you have sidelanes that are feeding, it's often as good a choice as any to gank and stem the bleeding, because if you play it straight your teammates will have fed away your incremental advantage anyway.
It's not your fault that they are feeding, but you are, at that point, often the only player with the power to do anything about it.
"Stem the bleeding" is actually a big misconception here. If the enemy off-lane is 3-0 they are a lot stronger than your safe lane, and you don't make up for that unless you're 3-0 against their mid laner anyway (in which case, you're not "pressured" to gank because a 3-0 mid laner is generally scarier than a 3-0 off-lane going into the midgame regardless). An attempt to gank that gets counter-ganked is almost always going to be a losing 3v3 because of that difference in strength between their off-lane and your safe lane. It's incredibly dangerous to try and gank the lane that's already that behind.
Trying to "stem the bleeding" is almost always the wrong time to gank because of this risk. The risk is least (and the reward greatest) when trying to swing close to even lanes, or when ganking lanes that will be behind based on the heroes, but are not yet behind.
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United States47024 Posts
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It's also an issue where people don't actively try go aggressive or dominate so when they do occasionally try they don't know the limits of their heroes or matchups so fail then don't try again. Learning how to be aggressive doesn't come without overextending
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Be solo offlane lich, get mek so your team doesn't yell at you. Then show them how it's done. Guess you need the mek anyway to survive and dish out the deeps.
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LOL CLOUD NINE GETS A CANADA FLAG
(also cloud nine's in the NA division and they still had to recruit team dog to make NA big enough rofl).
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I mean... they could have completly avoided the divisions thingy and nobody would have given a fuck, but nope, they had to do it so now everybody is gonna point that out.
Smart move.
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Well, if they want to lessen ping/server QQ then this way helps that at least (though literally every NA team listed has at least 1 player from EU rofl.
Qojqva/zai/bone7/PLD/Sing/pajkatt/misery/(Smulgullig?)
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EPT
