EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 4868
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
On February 25 2014 09:52 Kuroeeah wrote: http://imgur.com/XLY3kDJ DOTADEMON IS BACK, #dedication #motivation #hardwork #fitness must be reliable, demon accidentily posting it in his streamchat cuz why wouldnt u accidentily copy that | ||
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shizaep
Canada2920 Posts
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
Whenever I see a post about people saying they are stuck in ELO hell, allies all suck, want to improve win rate etc I see people often give the advice to 'pick a snowball mid and carry the game from there'. But when I looked on dotabuff winrates some of the most common snowball mid heroes have winrates of; QoP: 43.02% Storm: 45.08% Invoker: 46.04% TA: 45.01% Puck: 44.51% Whereas you get heaps of supports with win rates like Lich: 56.58% Venomancer: 53.58% CM: 53,29% Venge: 54.26% Omni: 53.98% Yeah maybe if you are the top 1% you there's a decent chance you are the best player in each of your pub games and you are good enough to pick one of these mid heroes and snowball the game from there, but for your average joe wouldn't better advice be to pick a support/utility hero like the ones I listed? | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On February 25 2014 14:37 Ryder. wrote: Just wanted to bring this up for discussion to see what people think... Whenever I see a post about people saying they are stuck in ELO hell, allies all suck, want to improve win rate etc I see people often give the advice to 'pick a snowball mid and carry the game from there'. But when I looked on dotabuff winrates some of the most common snowball mid heroes have winrates of; QoP: 43.02% Storm: 45.08% Invoker: 46.04% TA: 45.01% Puck: 44.51% Whereas you get heaps of supports with win rates like Lich: 56.58% Venomancer: 53.58% CM: 53,29% Venge: 54.26% Yeah maybe if you are the top 1% you there's a decent chance you are the best player in each of your pub games and you are good enough to pick one of these mid heroes and snowball the game from there, but for your average joe wouldn't better advice be to pick a support/utility hero like the ones I listed? because those heroes are the best to 1v5 (or 1v9) with at that level. now if the average joe wasnt so confident that they were the best player in that game, then sure they could pick a support | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
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Mithhaike
Singapore2759 Posts
On February 25 2014 14:37 Ryder. wrote: Just wanted to bring this up for discussion to see what people think... Whenever I see a post about people saying they are stuck in ELO hell, allies all suck, want to improve win rate etc I see people often give the advice to 'pick a snowball mid and carry the game from there'. But when I looked on dotabuff winrates some of the most common snowball mid heroes have winrates of; QoP: 43.02% Storm: 45.08% Invoker: 46.04% TA: 45.01% Puck: 44.51% Whereas you get heaps of supports with win rates like Lich: 56.58% Venomancer: 53.58% CM: 53,29% Venge: 54.26% Omni: 53.98% Yeah maybe if you are the top 1% you there's a decent chance you are the best player in each of your pub games and you are good enough to pick one of these mid heroes and snowball the game from there, but for your average joe wouldn't better advice be to pick a support/utility hero like the ones I listed? This proves that those people think that they are better than they are  It's a common advice because if they say their good, they should be able to snowball the game on their own.This only goes to show most people over estimate their own dota abilities. | ||
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run.at.me
Australia550 Posts
All those mid heroes you listed take far more skill to be able to do well. When people say pick a snowball hero if you're in 'ELO HELL' the assumption is you are the best player. Even still, as someone like puck if both other lanes lose it's hard to carry the game (much easier with TA) from personal experience, if you wan't to increase your mmr, don't play supports (but i can't stress enough that supports win games - but that's plural, a lone support can only do so much) | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
Everyone should have a cursory idea of how all roles work in all stages of the game. But personally, I find carry boring as shit. I don't want to rice my way to victory it's no fun for me. Mid is usually a hotly contested lane, I can do it fine but generally someone wants mid so I won't even bother. I enjoy offlane and its not picked too much, and in the words of the bastion announcer "no one likes to play support but everybody likes to win". So while I'll play any position we need I gravitate to offlane or support. I've played way too many games where the support has no fucking idea what they're doing. Hell I had a support Nyx the other day that built like he was a mid nyx. Arcane dagon, missed every single stun, bought zero wards. I know if I support it gets done right, people can't be trusted to do it. Having a support that knows how to do his job alone is going to skyrocket you way way way above your average pub. Plus being able to dictate the pace of the game can often push your team over the edge. I think most players severely underestimate how much influence a good support exerts over the game. The typical "mid or feed" player can assume they single-handedly won. Fucking take all the credit for all I care lol. The only thing I care about in DotA is winning. Unless you're playing a team full of idiots you're probably not winning without someone who knows what they're doing playing the position no one wants to play. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On February 25 2014 14:37 Ryder. wrote: Just wanted to bring this up for discussion to see what people think... Whenever I see a post about people saying they are stuck in ELO hell, allies all suck, want to improve win rate etc I see people often give the advice to 'pick a snowball mid and carry the game from there'. But when I looked on dotabuff winrates some of the most common snowball mid heroes have winrates of; QoP: 43.02% Storm: 45.08% Invoker: 46.04% TA: 45.01% Puck: 44.51% Whereas you get heaps of supports with win rates like Lich: 56.58% Venomancer: 53.58% CM: 53,29% Venge: 54.26% Omni: 53.98% Yeah maybe if you are the top 1% you there's a decent chance you are the best player in each of your pub games and you are good enough to pick one of these mid heroes and snowball the game from there, but for your average joe wouldn't better advice be to pick a support/utility hero like the ones I listed? If you look at the VH list http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/phantasmal/680_VH_Pubs/680Top15.png it's a lot different than dotabuff's. I don't have access to a full VH tier list but the top 15 listed here is very different from the dotabuff overall top 15. | ||
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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On February 25 2014 15:14 OuchyDathurts wrote: The problem with the "Just pick a mid and snowball" advice is if everyone does that you have a team full of garbage. You've got people fighting for solo mid and all the bickering and bullshit that comes with it. You have to rely on other people to play dota, that's just a fact, so you're going to get good teammates some times and others you're going to take it in the seeds. You have to identify what you're good at and what you're not so great at and play with that in mind. Everyone should have a cursory idea of how all roles work in all stages of the game. But personally, I find carry boring as shit. I don't want to rice my way to victory it's no fun for me. Mid is usually a hotly contested lane, I can do it fine but generally someone wants mid so I won't even bother. I enjoy offlane and its not picked too much, and in the words of the bastion announcer "no one likes to play support but everybody likes to win". So while I'll play any position we need I gravitate to offlane or support. I've played way too many games where the support has no fucking idea what they're doing. Hell I had a support Nyx the other day that built like he was a mid nyx. Arcane dagon, missed every single stun, bought zero wards. I know if I support it gets done right, people can't be trusted to do it. Having a support that knows how to do his job alone is going to skyrocket you way way way above your average pub. Plus being able to dictate the pace of the game can often push your team over the edge. I think most players severely underestimate how much influence a good support exerts over the game. The typical "mid or feed" player can assume they single-handedly won. Fucking take all the credit for all I care lol. The only thing I care about in DotA is winning. Unless you're playing a team full of idiots you're probably not winning without someone who knows what they're doing playing the position no one wants to play. Everybody won't follow the advice though though, and actually some of these solo mid heroes can work well as carry and offlane and sometimes even support. The reason this advice is good is because if said player is actually good enough to play said heroes plus more and really the best player in the match, they would have the easiest time winning using those heroes even if their own team was complete garbage and the other team not so much complete garbage. True, nobody will win all of their games but the reality is that ELO hell doesn't exist, MM will almost always matchup like MMRs with like MMRs, provided players are not scarce and uneven stacks. | ||
TheEmulator
28102 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 25 2014 14:37 Ryder. wrote: Just wanted to bring this up for discussion to see what people think... Whenever I see a post about people saying they are stuck in ELO hell, allies all suck, want to improve win rate etc I see people often give the advice to 'pick a snowball mid and carry the game from there'. But when I looked on dotabuff winrates some of the most common snowball mid heroes have winrates of; QoP: 43.02% Storm: 45.08% Invoker: 46.04% TA: 45.01% Puck: 44.51% Whereas you get heaps of supports with win rates like Lich: 56.58% Venomancer: 53.58% CM: 53,29% Venge: 54.26% Omni: 53.98% Yeah maybe if you are the top 1% you there's a decent chance you are the best player in each of your pub games and you are good enough to pick one of these mid heroes and snowball the game from there, but for your average joe wouldn't better advice be to pick a support/utility hero like the ones I listed? The base assumption of anyone stuck in Elo hell is the belief that their MMR under-represents their skill, which means that the consequently, they are the best player in their game more often than would normally be the case. The data you're presenting suggests (which most sensible people already realize) that most of these people aren't better than their MMR represents because they're picking these snowball mids and losing--that the MMR system is working fine and is pairing them appropriately with reasonable teammates, and that these people who complain about "Elo Hell" are just whiners who think they're better than they actually are. | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On February 25 2014 15:34 rabidch wrote: Everybody won't follow the advice though though, and actually some of these solo mid heroes can work well as carry and offlane and sometimes even support. The reason this advice is good is because if said player is actually good enough to play said heroes plus more and really the best player in the match, they would have the easiest time winning using those heroes even if their own team was complete garbage and the other team not so much complete garbage. True, nobody will win all of their games but the reality is that ELO hell doesn't exist, MM will almost always matchup like MMRs with like MMRs, provided players are not scarce and uneven stacks. Most people think they're the best player in a given game so you've got a problem if they all think they're going to go mid. If I take mid over you who also wanted it in most pubs you've already got a toxic environment. Once you've got that going it pretty well always leads to your downfall as a team, the only exception being if the other team has a more toxic environment. If I go mid over the next guy sure I might do it better, but I'm putting other areas of the game in jeopardy for whatever percentage of better play that is. Is it really worth it? Probably not. Say I'm 25% better than the other guy mid, that's nice, I win my lane and all that. But if I played support I'd do that job at least twice as well as our support for 25% better mid. For me that isn't worth it. I don't need na'vi or alliance level play, I just need competence. Just don't do anything stupid and we'll be just fine more often than not. I'm not asking for Dendi, just don't shit the bed and I can help you snowball. If you are Dendi I'll make you snowball harder. That's the power of a support and you're not putting all your eggs in the mid basket. If I see my mid isn't good I can try to get someone else on the team momentum to take over the game. Either setting up kills for them if they need help to secure them or by providing damage control on the worst player on the team to make sure they don't throw it. In my experience there's more power doing that than trying to ball out of control mid every game. | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
On February 25 2014 15:27 Nevuk wrote: If you look at the VH list http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/phantasmal/680_VH_Pubs/680Top15.png it's a lot different than dotabuff's. I don't have access to a full VH tier list but the top 15 listed here is very different from the dotabuff overall top 15. The list is actually quite similar. Some of the supports I listed weren't top 15 on dotabuff either but they are definitely considerably higher than the solo mids I listed, and other supports (lich, omni, abba, tree, ES) are still right up there. Not a single snowball mid I mentioned is in top 15 for either... I guess the moral of the story is that most people aren't as good as they think they are. I still think the generic advice of 'pick solomid and snowball' is inappropriate for 99% of players. Incidentally my favourite position/hero is support Rubick, and I think at least with certain supports its possible you can still have a high impact if you can find some farm/levels around the map. | ||
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njt7
Sweden769 Posts
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rebdomine
6040 Posts
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739
Bearded Elder29905 Posts
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