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On February 21 2014 00:05 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 18:33 Jaeger wrote:On February 20 2014 10:09 hariooo wrote:On February 20 2014 06:38 Jaeger wrote:On February 19 2014 20:02 govie wrote:On February 19 2014 19:46 BlitzerSC wrote:On February 19 2014 19:30 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 19 2014 18:31 Esoterikk wrote:On February 19 2014 17:39 BlitzerSC wrote:On February 19 2014 09:57 idonthinksobro wrote:
as if anyone will pick this hero in pro dota. He needs way too much farm to be of any use Boots of speed + TP scroll. SO MUCH FARM. I get the distinct feeling people don't realize that bola's do damage, I see people completely skipping them and it boggles me. Ember spirit is really weak to any sort of disable or debuff, be it stun, slow or silence. Drums into bf or drums into desolator is extremly greedy and can be punished. If you compare him to a luna which is a "fair" comparison he needs like twice the farm to be as strong as luna without the burst potential of a luna eclipse. Luna is really weak to any sort of disable or debuff, be it stun, slow or silence. Helm of Dominator into Yasha or Yasha into Helm of Dominator, is extremly greedy and can be punished. If you compare her to a Ember Spirit, which is a "fair comparison", she needs like twice the farm to be as strong as Ember Spirit without the burst potential of Searing Chains + Sleight of Fist. Nice theorycraft btw. I think you guys forget his big assets, ult and SoF. If someone has some level of gamesence its hard to kill an ember, Although in some situations SoF makes killing ember easier given that it returns to a fixed point you may find an arrow or a black hole waiting on you in some situations. Ember Spirit has a cast point of 0. Played properly by shift-queuing remnants after SoF, it is not a foregone conclusion that SoF will be punished, at least by skills that require such as Sacred Arrow. If you only hit 1-3 targets he completes an animation before executing anything shift-queued. If you hit more targets he doesn't do the animation but if your remnant is behind you he turns before jumping. I can land pudge hooks between SoF and the shift-queue jump pretty easily. (FWIW it also seems pudge hook can hit him during SoF and does nothing, basically wasting the hook) If you issue a move command towards your remnant behind you during SoF he'll come back facing the remnant and be able to jump instantly but you can't shift queue that jump because he'll finish the move command before doing the jump. Basically looks like right clicking towards your remnant during SoF and jumping to the remnant without queuing is the fastest and pretty sure the timing of that is not going to be instant. Hook is one of the least dangerous skills for Ember to worry about. I have literally never been solo killed by a Pudge as Ember. Pudge has zero way of guaranteeing the Dismember post-Hook. Like I said, 0 cast-time on Remnant. You don't have to time it, just spam it.
If pudge properly positions he will dismember you mid air you can't react to that.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 21 2014 02:49 Andre wrote:
If pudge properly positions he will dismember you mid air you can't react to that.
You can't dismember while hook is in flight in DotA 2. It's bugged. You can only start dismember once the target reaches the target point.
http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=56883&page=3&p=356991&viewfull=1#post356991
This is the number one reason why a lot of Pudge players felt you couldn't queue Hook->Dismember properly in DotA 2--because their natural instinct was to walk toward the hook as it returns and queue Dismember before the target arrives, which in DotA 2 would result in Pudge facing his back toward the target when the Hook movement is complete and having to turn around to Dismember.
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oh wow.
I'm only used to delaying the dismember as much as possible else pudge just walks some place random due to the hooked target still being somewhere else.
I'd say you can still probably dismember before ember can tp, though I guess it might dismember him long range. will have to test
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On February 21 2014 00:05 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 18:33 Jaeger wrote:On February 20 2014 10:09 hariooo wrote:On February 20 2014 06:38 Jaeger wrote:On February 19 2014 20:02 govie wrote:On February 19 2014 19:46 BlitzerSC wrote:On February 19 2014 19:30 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 19 2014 18:31 Esoterikk wrote:On February 19 2014 17:39 BlitzerSC wrote:On February 19 2014 09:57 idonthinksobro wrote:
as if anyone will pick this hero in pro dota. He needs way too much farm to be of any use Boots of speed + TP scroll. SO MUCH FARM. I get the distinct feeling people don't realize that bola's do damage, I see people completely skipping them and it boggles me. Ember spirit is really weak to any sort of disable or debuff, be it stun, slow or silence. Drums into bf or drums into desolator is extremly greedy and can be punished. If you compare him to a luna which is a "fair" comparison he needs like twice the farm to be as strong as luna without the burst potential of a luna eclipse. Luna is really weak to any sort of disable or debuff, be it stun, slow or silence. Helm of Dominator into Yasha or Yasha into Helm of Dominator, is extremly greedy and can be punished. If you compare her to a Ember Spirit, which is a "fair comparison", she needs like twice the farm to be as strong as Ember Spirit without the burst potential of Searing Chains + Sleight of Fist. Nice theorycraft btw. I think you guys forget his big assets, ult and SoF. If someone has some level of gamesence its hard to kill an ember, Although in some situations SoF makes killing ember easier given that it returns to a fixed point you may find an arrow or a black hole waiting on you in some situations. Ember Spirit has a cast point of 0. Played properly by shift-queuing remnants after SoF, it is not a foregone conclusion that SoF will be punished, at least by skills that require such as Sacred Arrow. If you only hit 1-3 targets he completes an animation before executing anything shift-queued. If you hit more targets he doesn't do the animation but if your remnant is behind you he turns before jumping. I can land pudge hooks between SoF and the shift-queue jump pretty easily. (FWIW it also seems pudge hook can hit him during SoF and does nothing, basically wasting the hook) If you issue a move command towards your remnant behind you during SoF he'll come back facing the remnant and be able to jump instantly but you can't shift queue that jump because he'll finish the move command before doing the jump. Basically looks like right clicking towards your remnant during SoF and jumping to the remnant without queuing is the fastest and pretty sure the timing of that is not going to be instant. Hook is one of the least dangerous skills for Ember to worry about. I have literally never been solo killed by a Pudge as Ember. Pudge has zero way of guaranteeing the Dismember post-Hook. Like I said, 0 cast-time on Remnant. You don't have to time it, just spam it.
Except for if the hook hits during ember turning towards the remnant he gets hooked, the remnant explodes, and you have no remnant and no SoF.
Anyways hook is just an example the point being if you're just shift-queuing your jump after SoF you can get hit.
FWIW there is a way to avoid the turn animation and shift-queue the jump still.
SoF in, right click towards remnant, press stop, shift-queue jump.
i.e. W, left-click, right-click, S, D, shift + left-click
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It seems you can use fire remnant during hook travel time, which basically does nothing. Have to time it exactly after the time you get hooked, but in my tests it seems random sometimes ember escapes sometimes not, not sure if it's due to failed fire remnant timing or proper/inproper pudge positioning after hook.
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On February 21 2014 03:32 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 00:05 hariooo wrote:On February 20 2014 18:33 Jaeger wrote:On February 20 2014 10:09 hariooo wrote:On February 20 2014 06:38 Jaeger wrote:On February 19 2014 20:02 govie wrote:On February 19 2014 19:46 BlitzerSC wrote:On February 19 2014 19:30 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 19 2014 18:31 Esoterikk wrote:On February 19 2014 17:39 BlitzerSC wrote:
[quote]
Boots of speed + TP scroll.
SO MUCH FARM. I get the distinct feeling people don't realize that bola's do damage, I see people completely skipping them and it boggles me. Ember spirit is really weak to any sort of disable or debuff, be it stun, slow or silence. Drums into bf or drums into desolator is extremly greedy and can be punished. If you compare him to a luna which is a "fair" comparison he needs like twice the farm to be as strong as luna without the burst potential of a luna eclipse. Luna is really weak to any sort of disable or debuff, be it stun, slow or silence. Helm of Dominator into Yasha or Yasha into Helm of Dominator, is extremly greedy and can be punished. If you compare her to a Ember Spirit, which is a "fair comparison", she needs like twice the farm to be as strong as Ember Spirit without the burst potential of Searing Chains + Sleight of Fist. Nice theorycraft btw. I think you guys forget his big assets, ult and SoF. If someone has some level of gamesence its hard to kill an ember, Although in some situations SoF makes killing ember easier given that it returns to a fixed point you may find an arrow or a black hole waiting on you in some situations. Ember Spirit has a cast point of 0. Played properly by shift-queuing remnants after SoF, it is not a foregone conclusion that SoF will be punished, at least by skills that require such as Sacred Arrow. If you only hit 1-3 targets he completes an animation before executing anything shift-queued. If you hit more targets he doesn't do the animation but if your remnant is behind you he turns before jumping. I can land pudge hooks between SoF and the shift-queue jump pretty easily. (FWIW it also seems pudge hook can hit him during SoF and does nothing, basically wasting the hook) If you issue a move command towards your remnant behind you during SoF he'll come back facing the remnant and be able to jump instantly but you can't shift queue that jump because he'll finish the move command before doing the jump. Basically looks like right clicking towards your remnant during SoF and jumping to the remnant without queuing is the fastest and pretty sure the timing of that is not going to be instant. Hook is one of the least dangerous skills for Ember to worry about. I have literally never been solo killed by a Pudge as Ember. Pudge has zero way of guaranteeing the Dismember post-Hook. Like I said, 0 cast-time on Remnant. You don't have to time it, just spam it. Except for if the hook hits during ember turning towards the remnant he gets hooked, the remnant explodes, and you have no remnant and no SoF. Anyways hook is just an example the point being if you're just shift-queuing your jump after SoF you can get hit. FWIW there is a way to avoid the turn animation and shift-queue the jump still. SoF in, right click towards remnant, press stop, shift-queue jump. i.e. W, left-click, right-click, S, D, shift + left-click
No one is talking about dodging Hook here? I'm saying Ember gets hit by the Hook (which requires proper timing by Pudge in the first place) and you spam Remnant, at which point you jump before the Dismember 100% of the time without external support.
On February 21 2014 03:36 Andre wrote:
It seems you can use fire remnant during hook travel time, which basically does nothing. Have to time it exactly after the time you get hooked, but in my tests it seems random sometimes ember escapes sometimes not, not sure if it's due to failed fire remnant timing or proper/inproper pudge positioning after hook.
You didn't even have any experience with Ember versus Pudge before making your original point that Pudge can Dismember Ember?
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Not much as Ember, but plenty times as pudge.
Perhaps the Embers I've played have been bad but I don't recall any time getting remnant doj'd UNLESS I'm super out of position for a hook, say I'm hooking across a hill and I dismember before Ember arrives which leads to pudge just turning around and walking somewhere.
edit: on further testing it seems if the remnant is behind pudge, so that ember is facing it directly ember will always escape, otherwise pudge has enough time to dismember you because you have to turn even though it's just slightly
if hook->dismember bug is ever fixed it's gonna be a pretty good buff for pudge against many heroes though.
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On February 21 2014 04:00 Andre wrote:
Not much as Ember, but plenty times as pudge.
Perhaps the Embers I've played have been bad but I don't recall any time getting remnant doj'd UNLESS I'm super out of position for a hook, say I'm hooking across a hill and I dismember before Ember arrives which leads to pudge just turning around and walking somewhere.
edit: on further testing it seems if the remnant is behind pudge, so that ember is facing it directly ember will always escape, otherwise pudge has enough time to dismember you because you have to turn even though it's just slightly
if hook->dismember bug is ever fixed it's gonna be a pretty good buff for pudge against many heroes though.
Ignoring ping, Pudge takes 0.3 seconds to Dismember someone on cast when already facing his target. Ember Spirit takes 0.157 seconds to fly away after making a 180 degree turn.
Without external factors or sub-optimal play, Pudge cannot Dismember Xin after a Hook. This is just a fact.
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You're welcome to test it with me.
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Ive been dismembered as weaver when trying to shukuchi so ...
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On February 21 2014 03:53 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 03:32 Jaeger wrote:On February 21 2014 00:05 hariooo wrote:On February 20 2014 18:33 Jaeger wrote:On February 20 2014 10:09 hariooo wrote:On February 20 2014 06:38 Jaeger wrote:On February 19 2014 20:02 govie wrote:On February 19 2014 19:46 BlitzerSC wrote:On February 19 2014 19:30 idonthinksobro wrote:On February 19 2014 18:31 Esoterikk wrote:
[quote]
I get the distinct feeling people don't realize that bola's do damage, I see people completely skipping them and it boggles me. Ember spirit is really weak to any sort of disable or debuff, be it stun, slow or silence. Drums into bf or drums into desolator is extremly greedy and can be punished. If you compare him to a luna which is a "fair" comparison he needs like twice the farm to be as strong as luna without the burst potential of a luna eclipse. Luna is really weak to any sort of disable or debuff, be it stun, slow or silence. Helm of Dominator into Yasha or Yasha into Helm of Dominator, is extremly greedy and can be punished. If you compare her to a Ember Spirit, which is a "fair comparison", she needs like twice the farm to be as strong as Ember Spirit without the burst potential of Searing Chains + Sleight of Fist. Nice theorycraft btw. I think you guys forget his big assets, ult and SoF. If someone has some level of gamesence its hard to kill an ember, Although in some situations SoF makes killing ember easier given that it returns to a fixed point you may find an arrow or a black hole waiting on you in some situations. Ember Spirit has a cast point of 0. Played properly by shift-queuing remnants after SoF, it is not a foregone conclusion that SoF will be punished, at least by skills that require such as Sacred Arrow. If you only hit 1-3 targets he completes an animation before executing anything shift-queued. If you hit more targets he doesn't do the animation but if your remnant is behind you he turns before jumping. I can land pudge hooks between SoF and the shift-queue jump pretty easily. (FWIW it also seems pudge hook can hit him during SoF and does nothing, basically wasting the hook) If you issue a move command towards your remnant behind you during SoF he'll come back facing the remnant and be able to jump instantly but you can't shift queue that jump because he'll finish the move command before doing the jump. Basically looks like right clicking towards your remnant during SoF and jumping to the remnant without queuing is the fastest and pretty sure the timing of that is not going to be instant. Hook is one of the least dangerous skills for Ember to worry about. I have literally never been solo killed by a Pudge as Ember. Pudge has zero way of guaranteeing the Dismember post-Hook. Like I said, 0 cast-time on Remnant. You don't have to time it, just spam it. Except for if the hook hits during ember turning towards the remnant he gets hooked, the remnant explodes, and you have no remnant and no SoF. Anyways hook is just an example the point being if you're just shift-queuing your jump after SoF you can get hit. FWIW there is a way to avoid the turn animation and shift-queue the jump still. SoF in, right click towards remnant, press stop, shift-queue jump. i.e. W, left-click, right-click, S, D, shift + left-click No one is talking about dodging Hook here? I'm saying Ember gets hit by the Hook (which requires proper timing by Pudge in the first place) and you spam Remnant, at which point you jump before the Dismember 100% of the time without external support.
And I'm saying if you get hit by the hook you don't have a Remnant to escape to.
Anyways like I said hook is just an example, replace hook with sacred arrow or dragon tail or anything else instant or precastable (silence or stun).
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Dismember has a 160 cast range. Won't Pudge begin the cast animation before the hook has finished dragging reducing the gap of time where someone can escape? (Uh for long hooks since short ones don't allow Pudge to begin any other actions)
Answer no he won't (extra work can make up for it a bit though)  forgot about the dota2 'bug' for that.
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On February 21 2014 05:00 Erasme wrote:
Ive been dismembered as weaver when trying to shukuchi so ...
I think that's because shukuchi has a slight delay on invisibility.
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On February 21 2014 05:26 Andre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 05:00 Erasme wrote:
Ive been dismembered as weaver when trying to shukuchi so ... I think that's because shukuchi has a slight delay on invisibility.
.25s fade.
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pudge can dismember during hook
or at least it doesn't take .3s for the actual dismember to go off
click hook on a hero, then click dismember on them while hook is midair
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Has that not been discussed already? Isn't there a post by Yango saying that exact thing doesn't work at the top of this page?
On February 21 2014 03:10 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 02:49 Andre wrote:
If pudge properly positions he will dismember you mid air you can't react to that. You can't dismember while hook is in flight in DotA 2. It's bugged. You can only start dismember once the target reaches the target point. http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=56883&page=3&p=356991&viewfull=1#post356991This is the number one reason why a lot of Pudge players felt you couldn't queue Hook->Dismember properly in DotA 2--because their natural instinct was to walk toward the hook as it returns and queue Dismember before the target arrives, which in DotA 2 would result in Pudge facing his back toward the target when the Hook movement is complete and having to turn around to Dismember.
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United States47024 Posts
On February 21 2014 04:00 Andre wrote:
if hook->dismember bug is ever fixed it's gonna be a pretty good buff for pudge against many heroes though.
It actually evens out because there is a related bug where enemy units are stunned during Hook.
It's supposed to only ministun them once at the start and during the rest of the movement they aren't stunned. So, say, a Rubick that is hooked should actually be able to cast Telekinesis on Pudge while in flight, and then walk away from getting Dismembered since Pudge would be lifted when Hook ends.
The two bugs essentially cancel each other out. Fixing one without the other obviously would be a big buff or nerf to Pudge.
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On February 21 2014 05:02 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 03:53 hariooo wrote:On February 21 2014 03:32 Jaeger wrote:On February 21 2014 00:05 hariooo wrote:On February 20 2014 18:33 Jaeger wrote:On February 20 2014 10:09 hariooo wrote:On February 20 2014 06:38 Jaeger wrote:On February 19 2014 20:02 govie wrote:On February 19 2014 19:46 BlitzerSC wrote:On February 19 2014 19:30 idonthinksobro wrote:
[quote]
Ember spirit is really weak to any sort of disable or debuff, be it stun, slow or silence. Drums into bf or drums into desolator is extremly greedy and can be punished. If you compare him to a luna which is a "fair" comparison he needs like twice the farm to be as strong as luna without the burst potential of a luna eclipse. Luna is really weak to any sort of disable or debuff, be it stun, slow or silence. Helm of Dominator into Yasha or Yasha into Helm of Dominator, is extremly greedy and can be punished. If you compare her to a Ember Spirit, which is a "fair comparison", she needs like twice the farm to be as strong as Ember Spirit without the burst potential of Searing Chains + Sleight of Fist. Nice theorycraft btw. I think you guys forget his big assets, ult and SoF. If someone has some level of gamesence its hard to kill an ember, Although in some situations SoF makes killing ember easier given that it returns to a fixed point you may find an arrow or a black hole waiting on you in some situations. Ember Spirit has a cast point of 0. Played properly by shift-queuing remnants after SoF, it is not a foregone conclusion that SoF will be punished, at least by skills that require such as Sacred Arrow. If you only hit 1-3 targets he completes an animation before executing anything shift-queued. If you hit more targets he doesn't do the animation but if your remnant is behind you he turns before jumping. I can land pudge hooks between SoF and the shift-queue jump pretty easily. (FWIW it also seems pudge hook can hit him during SoF and does nothing, basically wasting the hook) If you issue a move command towards your remnant behind you during SoF he'll come back facing the remnant and be able to jump instantly but you can't shift queue that jump because he'll finish the move command before doing the jump. Basically looks like right clicking towards your remnant during SoF and jumping to the remnant without queuing is the fastest and pretty sure the timing of that is not going to be instant. Hook is one of the least dangerous skills for Ember to worry about. I have literally never been solo killed by a Pudge as Ember. Pudge has zero way of guaranteeing the Dismember post-Hook. Like I said, 0 cast-time on Remnant. You don't have to time it, just spam it. Except for if the hook hits during ember turning towards the remnant he gets hooked, the remnant explodes, and you have no remnant and no SoF. Anyways hook is just an example the point being if you're just shift-queuing your jump after SoF you can get hit. FWIW there is a way to avoid the turn animation and shift-queue the jump still. SoF in, right click towards remnant, press stop, shift-queue jump. i.e. W, left-click, right-click, S, D, shift + left-click No one is talking about dodging Hook here? I'm saying Ember gets hit by the Hook (which requires proper timing by Pudge in the first place) and you spam Remnant, at which point you jump before the Dismember 100% of the time without external support. And I'm saying if you get hit by the hook you don't have a Remnant to escape to. Anyways like I said hook is just an example, replace hook with sacred arrow or dragon tail or anything else instant or precastable (silence or stun).
Your entire premise is that the Ember is going to shift-queue his Remnant after SoF and waste it by having it proc before Hook hits him.
Basically, if Ember simply doesn't shift-queue, either he gets it off before being hit by hook OR he gets hit by Hook before proccing Remnant and jumps out before the Dismember. Pudge only wins if Ember misplays.
Mirana has a chance but DK actually has no chance to land Dragon Tail, due to targeting speed. He has to click on the skill and then the hero while Ember has to click his skill then literally anywhere else on the screen. Guess who wins that race?
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The "bug" that prevents Pudge from doing that is a buff. Dismembering mid-air and not being able to get rot damage in was annoying. And you can a-click immediately after without worrying about turnrate.
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On February 21 2014 06:06 hariooo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2014 05:02 Jaeger wrote:On February 21 2014 03:53 hariooo wrote:On February 21 2014 03:32 Jaeger wrote:On February 21 2014 00:05 hariooo wrote:On February 20 2014 18:33 Jaeger wrote:On February 20 2014 10:09 hariooo wrote:On February 20 2014 06:38 Jaeger wrote:On February 19 2014 20:02 govie wrote:On February 19 2014 19:46 BlitzerSC wrote:
[quote]
Luna is really weak to any sort of disable or debuff, be it stun, slow or silence. Helm of Dominator into Yasha or Yasha into Helm of Dominator, is extremly greedy and can be punished. If you compare her to a Ember Spirit, which is a "fair comparison", she needs like twice the farm to be as strong as Ember Spirit without the burst potential of Searing Chains + Sleight of Fist.
Nice theorycraft btw. I think you guys forget his big assets, ult and SoF. If someone has some level of gamesence its hard to kill an ember, Although in some situations SoF makes killing ember easier given that it returns to a fixed point you may find an arrow or a black hole waiting on you in some situations. Ember Spirit has a cast point of 0. Played properly by shift-queuing remnants after SoF, it is not a foregone conclusion that SoF will be punished, at least by skills that require such as Sacred Arrow. If you only hit 1-3 targets he completes an animation before executing anything shift-queued. If you hit more targets he doesn't do the animation but if your remnant is behind you he turns before jumping. I can land pudge hooks between SoF and the shift-queue jump pretty easily. (FWIW it also seems pudge hook can hit him during SoF and does nothing, basically wasting the hook) If you issue a move command towards your remnant behind you during SoF he'll come back facing the remnant and be able to jump instantly but you can't shift queue that jump because he'll finish the move command before doing the jump. Basically looks like right clicking towards your remnant during SoF and jumping to the remnant without queuing is the fastest and pretty sure the timing of that is not going to be instant. Hook is one of the least dangerous skills for Ember to worry about. I have literally never been solo killed by a Pudge as Ember. Pudge has zero way of guaranteeing the Dismember post-Hook. Like I said, 0 cast-time on Remnant. You don't have to time it, just spam it. Except for if the hook hits during ember turning towards the remnant he gets hooked, the remnant explodes, and you have no remnant and no SoF. Anyways hook is just an example the point being if you're just shift-queuing your jump after SoF you can get hit. FWIW there is a way to avoid the turn animation and shift-queue the jump still. SoF in, right click towards remnant, press stop, shift-queue jump. i.e. W, left-click, right-click, S, D, shift + left-click No one is talking about dodging Hook here? I'm saying Ember gets hit by the Hook (which requires proper timing by Pudge in the first place) and you spam Remnant, at which point you jump before the Dismember 100% of the time without external support. And I'm saying if you get hit by the hook you don't have a Remnant to escape to. Anyways like I said hook is just an example, replace hook with sacred arrow or dragon tail or anything else instant or precastable (silence or stun). Your entire premise is that the Ember is going to shift-queue his Remnant after SoF and waste it by having it proc before Hook hits him.
This entire discussion is based on you saying ember can just shift-queue remnant after SoF and be fine.
On February 21 2014 06:06 hariooo wrote:
Mirana has a chance but DK actually has no chance to land Dragon Tail, due to targeting speed. He has to click on the skill and then the hero while Ember has to click his skill then literally anywhere else on the screen. Guess who wins that race?
You mean DK has to press W and then spam click on the spot where ember will return to after SoF.
However the jump does still go through and he's stunned at the remnant location for some reason.
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EPT
