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Lalalaland34505 Posts
On February 09 2014 19:44 TheWorldToCome wrote:
Hey guys, Ive never watched/played LoL or Dota and am thinking of starting to play. My question is why is Dota2 considered to be more skillful than LoL? I seem to get that, that IS the consensus of this community so I'm just wondering why it is, thanks.
Difficult question to answer because bias seeps in very easily even when it is unintended, but I'll give a few examples that are commonly mentioned.
Spells in Dota are worth much 'more' than in LoL. In LoL, spells tend to cost less relative mana, have lower cooldowns, yet have less of an impact, either via damage or utility. What this means is that they are much more spammable, and cost less if you use them ineffectively. Compare that to Dota, where there are heroes that start with a mana pool to cast just one spell before going out of mana, but that spell has a much bigger impact, either via damage or utility (bigger stun etc). The counter argument to this is that LoL is full of 'skillshots' (spells which you have to target an area with rather than a unit, so you have to predict the enemy's movements etc) whereas Dota has much more 'point and click' spells.
Hero/champion laning at the beginning of the game. In LoL, champions tend to have a designated lane/role. X champion is ALWAYS going to be jungling, Y champion is ALWAYS going to be support, Z champion is ALWAYS going to be mid. Every game tends to have one champion at top, one champion at mid, two champions at bot, and one jungler (though I hear there have been some recent experiments, I'm not sure). Dota is at the complete opposite end in terms of flexibility, both in laning strategy and hero roles. An example of a flexible hero would be Alchemist, who can be played as a hard carry in one game, yet played as a support roamer in the next game. As for laning strategies, one game can be played with a 1-1-3 laning setup with a defensive trilane, the next can be played as 3-1-1, or 2-1-2, or 1-1-2+jungle, etc etc. This adds a whole layer of complexity at the start of the game, where not only are your hero picks important, but your role allocation and laning strategy can win or lose you the game.
Hero/champion animations are another thing. In LoL, champions generally have no attack/cast/turn animation. Order your champion to attack or cast something and it will go off instantly. In Dota, attack/cast/turn animations are a huge part of balance. Heroes like Earthshaker have incredibly strong spells but are balanced by having a long cast animation (as well as a tiny mana pool, going back to my first point). This delay is frequently misinterpreted by LoL/newer players as 'lag' or 'game delay' when it actually is intended.
In Dota, if you lose a barracks, it is gone for good. In LoL, if you lose an inhibitor, it comes back in a few minutes. The implications are obvious.
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ur barracks coming back to life in 4 minutes is a big deal
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LoL gives everyone free wards from lvl 1
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LoL is normalized, before queueing up you can have a pretty decent idea of how the game is going to go.
Dota is extreme, games can vary wildly and you have to react more to what is happening in the game.
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On February 09 2014 19:44 TheWorldToCome wrote:
Hey guys, Ive never watched/played LoL or Dota and am thinking of starting to play. My question is why is Dota2 considered to be more skillful than LoL? I seem to get that, that IS the consensus of this community so I'm just wondering why it is, thanks.
There was a very good thread in strategy that would be relevant. I'll see if I can find it.
It was basically a "guide to dota for LoL players", so although it didn't directly address your question, it went through a lot of the differences from quite a balanced and helpful perspective. Probably requires a bit of genre knowledge to read, but I don't think you're going to get any meaningful answers that will make sense if you know nothing about either game.
Hold on...
Got it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423453
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On February 09 2014 19:44 TheWorldToCome wrote:
Hey guys, Ive never watched/played LoL or Dota and am thinking of starting to play. My question is why is Dota2 considered to be more skillful than LoL? I seem to get that, that IS the consensus of this community so I'm just wondering why it is, thanks.
Knowledge wise dota is deeper and way more complicated. Last hits, denies, lane control, map control etc... are harder. You lose gold on death. One other thing is the camera which is a lot closer to the hero than in LoL. Basically your game vision is more difficult to apprehend.
Overall there are a lot of little details which contribute to make the game harder.
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In most simple terms, if you play LoL you are a scrub, forever n00b sheep. I vomit a little in my throat whenever it is brought up.
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On February 09 2014 20:58 Gevna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2014 19:44 TheWorldToCome wrote:
Hey guys, Ive never watched/played LoL or Dota and am thinking of starting to play. My question is why is Dota2 considered to be more skillful than LoL? I seem to get that, that IS the consensus of this community so I'm just wondering why it is, thanks. One other thing is the camera which is a lot closer to the hero than in LoL. Basically your game vision is more difficult to apprehend.
This is big aspect that people don't really recognize.
A lot of spells in dota have huge range and fly in from off the screen and it's really difficult to stay alert at all times if you are inexperienced.
Basically if you come from LoL mirana arrows and pudge hooks are going to be the bane of your existence for a while.
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Another huge difference is the jungle. In LoL, the jungle is a pretty simple place, there are specific sets of creeps which always spawn at the same spot, and they have a respawn timer, so it's pretty easy to know which order to do everything in. In Dota, the jungle is a bit more complex, instead of just having an optimal route between camps you have to find camps with fitting enemies, and you have to time it since all camps respawn at the 00 second mark each minute. You can also pull creeps in the dota jungle, either to get them away from the spawn point so the creeps stack, giving you more gold and experience, or pulling them into the lane to divert your creeps from your enemy. On the other hand, LoL has the jungle buffs, which makes for some pretty interesting plays where you try to steal the buffs from your enemy.
Overall, being an effective jungler is harder in Dota, but there's a bit more focus on ganking if you're a jungler in LoL. Don't get me wrong, junglers should definitely gank and help lanes in Dota, but in Lol, it's more or less your main way of impacting the game and keeping up in gold/exp, while in Dota there are several heroes who can AFK farm jungle for 15-20 minutes and still do OK (at least at lower levels).
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
firebolt just covered all the important details id say
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I thought you couldn't deny in lol? That adds a lot to the skill of 1v1 laners in Dota imo.
e: also raxes respawn, really? :D
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they do but its way easier to push highground
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Gurls play more lol, if u like gurls play lol, if you like manga and anime play dota2
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On February 09 2014 22:31 govie wrote:Gurls play more lol, if u like gurls play lol, if you like manga and anime play dota2
u mean if you like e-hoes play lol
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Both have shit community and it's incredibly rare that by the end of the game your not wishing for painful death for some of your teammate. Doesn't have to be feeding or being shit, just at least 25% of players are simply intolerable.
Dota has more random shit, bashes, CK spells, mud golems, PA ulti, etc etc. that doesn't exist in LoL, well theres crits in it too but it's not "as" bad.
LoL requires you to buy heroes. You have 10 free ones weekly that you cannot use in ranked (Or did they change that?) and others you have to buy either with real money or earn really slow by playing games. In dota all are available from the get go.
LoL has terrible launcher, Dota has Steam that is down all the time.
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Surely things like “dota has denies” are no help at all to someone who is completely new to the genre. How does he even evaluate what that means?
I guess if I were going to attempt an answer at a broader level, I would hazard that LoL is largely symmetric and consistent, while dota is asymmetric and volatile.
In LoL, opposing teams generally consist of similar compositions, and contain heroes which develop in linear ways. Generally, as the game progresses, they will become better at what they already do. LoL also avoids a number of mechanics - like creep pulls and denies - in which teams can passively affect the other's goals. Much of the game then comes down to straightforwardly executing your plan better than the opponents can execute their very similar plan.
In Dota, opposing teams can have wildly different compositions and objectives, leading to game phases in which one team, and then the other, trade distinct and planned advantages. The high proportion of active items in dota also allow heroes to gain functions, drastically altering their roles based on the game state. This creates much clearer and stronger timings at the team level, as well as adding flexibility as an individual. Two team's plans may greatly differ, and can in fact change as the game goes on.
The net result is a much more significant layer of prediction and planning, both in team composition and in individual resource allocation and itemization. That’s where dota’s skill differential comes in, to me. The tradeoff is that dota can appear mechanically simple because it is focused so heavily on choices and timings; the obvious example is LoL's spammy skillshots vs. dota's high-cost point-and-click stuns, which Firebolt already mentioned.
Really, though, people in this forum think dota is better because most of us play dota. You’re going to get about 5+ pages of dota vs. LoL here unless the mods step on it, so you’ll have all the input you need… but if you go ask that question on a LoL board you will get very different answers.
Pick up the game you enjoy the most.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
So after like 8 years of playing dota on and off I just found out that Dust doesn't reveal Wards. Learn something new everyday, lol.
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There is a huge difference in design/balance philosophies for both games:
• for Dota it is "fight imbalance with imbalance" (so often you see heroes being balanced by making their flaws even worse and their advantages even stronger)
• for LoL it is (or used to be back when i played it) "keep the game fun" (in a "if something gives a lot of fun to a person playing it but makes the other person feel hopeless then nerf/rework it")
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Comparing the skill cap is kind of pointless as well since pros don't play "perfect games" in either of them. It's like saying basketball is more difficult than football or vice versa, it doesn't matter because you're never going to be perfect at either of them.
Dota probably has more depth but again, do you actually care? It's going to take a new player at least 6 months to a year to get decent at LoL.
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On September 04 2012 05:54 Kupon3ss wrote:
There's a fundamental difference in game design theory between DotA and LoL, DotA has always been about "is that concept awesome?" before even thinking about "what is balance, what is hero role, what is skill level, etc." wheras LoL puts those things in the forefront of hero design.
There's something called radical dynamic asymmetry, one of the fundamental design differences between DotA and LoL. It is precisely due to the fact that "spells scale" that LoL is unable to create heroes that vary vastly at different points in the game. Due to the scaling on casters, it becomes far more difficult to create heroes that vary in power at differing stages in the game. As such, hero design becomes somewhat stagnant as both overall power levels and game scaling need to be comparable for heroes of similar roles.
The direct result of this, along with the lack of creativity in map design, is the constant mirroring of lane setups with match-ups between similar heroes in similar roles arrayed against each other in set lanes. This, by itself, along with the need for heroes to remain constantly similarly powered, leads to what is seen as a very stale and boring metagame of essentially the same laning phase and team composition.
While this has the advantage of making the game far simpler to understand and observe as you can quickly judge out very predictable lanes and matchups, with the game state being extremely easy to comprehend as you can directly compare heroes in the lanes or simply glance at the gold counter to see which team is ahead, this also leads to stagnation in the meta and the exacerbation of the snowball effect. If the lanes all involve similar heroes scaling in the same way lined up against a mirrored lineup that performs essentially the same way, then any advantage a team gets is transformed into a direct advantage in both laning and combat and thus can be extended to further your advantage. With such linear and consistent scaling, you are ahead once you gain an advantage with which you can very easily become further ahead.
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EPT
