EPTOn January 08 2014 10:16 cecek wrote:
Is sprout ever relevant when laning against prophet?
Is sprout ever relevant when laning against prophet?
Yes. It kills pretty much anyone when you got phaseboot after a bit of harass
General Discussion - Page 4660
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
Yes. It kills pretty much anyone when you got phaseboot after a bit of harass | ||
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Pseudoku
Canada1279 Posts
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tauon
Australia1278 Posts
On January 08 2014 11:43 Pseudoku wrote: IIRC Each point of Armor improves the number of physical hits you can withstand by the same amount (so it's not "diminishing"). Kind of. You're right because armour increases your effective HP (eHP = amount of physical damage you can sustain before reductions) by 6% of your HP for each point of armour. It's dimishing in the sense that each point of armour increases your eHP by a smaller fraction of your current eHP each time. Example: You have 1000 HP 1st point of armour increase your eHP from 1000 to 1060 (or 6%), 10th point of armour increases your eHP from 1600 to 1660 whivh is a 3.8% increase. As you get more armour you get more benefit from building raw HP/strength so eventually this will become a better option. | ||
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JeeJee
Canada5652 Posts
On January 08 2014 13:10 tauon wrote: Kind of. You're right because armour increases your effective HP (eHP = amount of physical damage you can sustain before reductions) by 6% of your HP for each point of armour. It's dimishing in the sense that each point of armour increases your eHP by a smaller fraction of your current eHP each time. Example: You have 1000 HP 1st point of armour increase your eHP from 1000 to 1060 (or 6%), 10th point of armour increases your eHP from 1600 to 1660 whivh is a 3.8% increase. As you get more armour you get more benefit from building raw HP/strength so eventually this will become a better option. I hear this a lot, but I never got it. By that logic, HP also has diminishing returns (pretend you have a +60hp item above instead of a +1 armor item), yet nobody ever thinks of HP that way. | ||
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Jinxed
United States6450 Posts
On January 08 2014 13:29 JeeJee wrote: I hear this a lot, but I never got it. By that logic, HP also has diminishing returns (pretend you have a +60hp item above instead of a +1 armor item), yet nobody ever thinks of HP that way. EDIT: The Guys below me put it perfectly. Nothing really to add to it IMO. | ||
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
On January 08 2014 13:29 JeeJee wrote: I hear this a lot, but I never got it. By that logic, HP also has diminishing returns (pretend you have a +60hp item above instead of a +1 armor item), yet nobody ever thinks of HP that way. They both have diminishing returns. The point is to balance both HP and armor. | ||
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CustomKal
Canada749 Posts
On January 08 2014 13:29 JeeJee wrote: I hear this a lot, but I never got it. By that logic, HP also has diminishing returns (pretend you have a +60hp item above instead of a +1 armor item), yet nobody ever thinks of HP that way. Except you also have to take into account that spell damage exists in the game. Thus HP regardless will eventually trump EHP in terms of effectiveness when armor hits a certain point. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On January 08 2014 13:29 JeeJee wrote: I hear this a lot, but I never got it. By that logic, HP also has diminishing returns (pretend you have a +60hp item above instead of a +1 armor item), yet nobody ever thinks of HP that way. 10 points of armor gives you 600 effective hitpoints on 1k hp which is a 60% increase in effective hitpoints or 6% per point. Doing the percentages on the 9 -> 10 armor and comparing it to going from 0 -> 1 is indeed not the same percentage increase in effective hitpoints, but does not mean it doesn't have linear returns. Every point of armor gives me 6% more effective health no matter how much armor I obtain so the relationship between armor and effective hitpoints is linear. You can use the same logic for hitpoints. If I add 60 hitpoints to any value of hitpoints then I've increased my hitpoints by 60. The percentage increase in hitpoints will vary depending on what that value is, but it is still a linear return because the percentage increase changing doesn't make the return non-linear. Evasion actually has diminishing returns. If I have one butterfly then I get 35% evasion. If I get a second butterfly it doesn't give you an additional 35% evasion because if both of the evasions proc then I can't evade the same attack twice so I lose the union where both evasions proc: diminishing returns. Good math; bad inference. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
EHP is a product of your HP and armor. So the best way to spend your money is to balance the two. It does't mean that every point of armor incrementally provides less EHP per point, it means that every point of armor means HP gets MORE EHP per point and vice versa. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On January 08 2014 14:13 TheYango wrote: This is like, grade school math here. chinese elementary schools yango wow | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
12:15 AM - Skadi Doesn't Know: yamsgo 12:15 AM - HZZZZZ: you were fencing chickens in 4th grade too 12:15 AM - Skadi Doesn't Know: what the fuck 12:15 AM - Skadi Doesn't Know: fencing chickens? 12:15 AM - HZZZZZ: yes 12:15 AM - Skadi Doesn't Know: dafuq 12:15 AM - Skadi Doesn't Know: is that 12:15 AM - HZZZZZ: the way to fence the largest area with a given perimeter 12:15 AM - HZZZZZ: is a square 12:15 AM - HZZZZZ: its the same fucking shit 12:15 AM - Skadi Doesn't Know: oh LOL 12:15 AM - Skadi Doesn't Know: i thought 12:15 AM - Skadi Doesn't Know: when you say " fencing chickens" 12:16 AM - Skadi Doesn't Know: you mean engaging in rapier jousts yango pls | ||
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rebdomine
6040 Posts
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tauon
Australia1278 Posts
On January 08 2014 14:05 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: 10 points of armor gives you 600 effective hitpoints on 1k hp which is a 60% increase in effective hitpoints or 6% per point. Doing the percentages on the 9 -> 10 armor and comparing it to going from 0 -> 1 is indeed not the same percentage increase in effective hitpoints, but does not mean it doesn't have linear returns. Every point of armor gives me 6% more effective health no matter how much armor I obtain so the relationship between armor and effective hitpoints is linear. You can use the same logic for hitpoints. If I add 60 hitpoints to any value of hitpoints then I've increased my hitpoints by 60. The percentage increase in hitpoints will vary depending on what that value is, but it is still a linear return because the percentage increase changing doesn't make the return non-linear. Evasion actually has diminishing returns. If I have one butterfly then I get 35% evasion. If I get a second butterfly it doesn't give you an additional 35% evasion because if both of the evasions proc then I can't evade the same attack twice so I lose the union where both evasions proc: diminishing returns. Good math; bad inference. If you want to frame it in terms of physical resistance then you get diminishing returns (0->1 armour gives 0->6% resistance and 9->10 armour gives a smaller increment in resistance). Hence, Deso will give more damage amplification against low armour heroes. That's why people like to call it diminishing returns. In Dota 2, deso is optimal against 3-4 armour heroes (probably different in dota 1). But yeah, HP also has diminishing returns. | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34505 Posts
Ahaha I thought the same as I was reading down this. | ||
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Zealos
United Kingdom3576 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
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Eriksen
Micronesia720 Posts
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
HOWEVER an alternative way to look at it is to give yourself fixed numbers; to represent the fact that every point you've spent building up your armour is a point you could have spent on building your HP (i.e. how you spend your money in a game). That is to say you can only have a certain amount of total points of strength and armour at any one point in the game; so if you've got a fixed amount what is the best way to split the points? Lets say you've got 100 points to split between armour and strength. Each point in strength gives you +19 HP and each point in armour is going to give 6% extra EHP. Thus I believe your EHP is going to be: (x*19) + (0.06*(100-x)*(x*19)) Where x is points in strength. Graphing this I got a nice curve peaking at 58 Str : 42 Armour; with an EHP value of 3879.04 and raw HP of 1102. However note this doesn't take into account cost-effectiveness per point of armour vs cost-effectiveness per point of strength with respect to gold. It simply represents the most cost effective way to split the numbers. Consequently it looks like a roughly 3:2 ratio of strength to armour might be the way to go against pure physical damage. | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
at ~1500 HP you want ~7 armor at ~2000 HP you want ~15 armor at ~2500 HP you want ~23 armor at ~3000 HP you want ~30 armor at ~3500 HP you want ~38 armor at ~4000 HP you want ~45 armor however note that ac/shivas also have other bonuses like passives and frost nova assuming ~30 HP = 1 armor in terms of price (true for platemail) at ~1000 HP you want ~17 armor at ~1500 HP you want ~34 armor at ~2000 HP you want ~50 armor basically platemail is pretty much always the most cost effective item for physical ehp | ||
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