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On January 06 2014 10:00 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 08:47 TheYango wrote:
Solo MMR measures your ability to carry games, not your ability to not die and get kills.
If being 10-0 doesn't mean you have enough game impact to carry then it's meaningless. I don't really get what you mean by this. Solo MMR is a measure of whether you help or hinder your team's effort at victory. It's a measure of your total ability as a Dota player when matched with randoms. You don't need to carry (either in terms of dominating or playing 1/2 role) at all.
I can have zero kills and more deaths than assists as a support and still be key to a game if I create space for my carries. We had a lone druid in a game who AFK farmed all game, never came to team fights until we had lost so much map control he was forced too. He ended that game with a 10/4 K/D score. I had a much higher death count in that game, but I likely did way more for my team.
Kills don't win you the game, breaking down towers does.
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On January 06 2014 10:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 10:00 FuzzyJAM wrote:On January 06 2014 08:47 TheYango wrote:
Solo MMR measures your ability to carry games, not your ability to not die and get kills.
If being 10-0 doesn't mean you have enough game impact to carry then it's meaningless. I don't really get what you mean by this. Solo MMR is a measure of whether you help or hinder your team's effort at victory. It's a measure of your total ability as a Dota player when matched with randoms. You don't need to carry (either in terms of dominating or playing 1/2 role) at all. I can have zero kills and more deaths than assists as a support and still be key to a game if I create space for my carries. We had a lone druid in a game who AFK farmed all game, never came to team fights until we had lost so much map control he was forced too. He ended that game with a 10/4 K/D score. I had a much higher death count in that game, but I likely did way more for my team.
Now the question is, is "that game impact" measureable, measured and how does this game-impact gets calculated into mmr? I guess it could be a very small contribution/deduction to mmr, but unnoticeable for me as an indivudual. mmr now feels like it doesnt matter if i feed, own, deward, land gamechanging blackholes (which is gameimpact by definition). Win/loss, thats whats counts, rest feels like peanuts=minimal influence on my mmr. Just stating how it feels for me at this point.
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The confusion probably comes from the term "carry". A NOUN carry is usually the position 1/2 role that has farm priority and is expected to me a major source of damage in the later stages of the game. The VERB "carry" then probably means "to play a carry role" except it can also mean "to do shit that leads your team to victory".
I.E. an enigma that lands a sick black hole can be "carrying" his team to victory as much as a 6 slotted AM could. Similarly a Chen that secures all the t1's or gets a t2 pushed rather quickly is carrying the team by generating that momentum. Kwark's Lycan guide is about how to carry as Lycan, but it never has a segment that says "Okay now go get a sick KDA", but is more about splitpushing and getting safe farm, only taking safe engagements when they're presented to you and not actively pursuing them.
@Govie if "carrying" is your ability to be impactful in games, obviously that will have an impact on your MMR over many iterations. Having a per-game additive of your "game impact" would screw up the system, because the ultimate indicator of your game impact is whether or not you win. If it makes you feel better, you could probably rename your MMR your "Game Impact Rating" and still have it be just as reasonable a number.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
Breaking news! Random DotA players were mean to each other in a random DotA pub game! Coming to you straight from /r/dota2 front page! More news at eight.
edit: Apparently it's a follow up to the equally shocking news of random dota players fountain farming other dota players. Fascinating.
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Fountain diving is a legitimate gameplay concern that needs to be addressed IMO. I've gotten friends through making a steam account, downloading and installing d2, through the tutorial and then they get fountain camped for 10 mins in there first few games and never play again. It's pointless and only serves to lengthen finished games.
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On January 06 2014 11:10 AndyJay wrote:
Fountain diving is a legitimate gameplay concern that needs to be addressed IMO. I've gotten friends through making a steam account, downloading and installing d2, through the tutorial and then they get fountain camped for 10 mins in there first few games and never play again. It's pointless and only serves to lengthen finished games.
it's not as big of a deal as your making it out to be.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
Fountain farming is a minigame. Nothing more, nothing less, imo.
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On January 06 2014 10:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 10:00 FuzzyJAM wrote:On January 06 2014 08:47 TheYango wrote:
Solo MMR measures your ability to carry games, not your ability to not die and get kills.
If being 10-0 doesn't mean you have enough game impact to carry then it's meaningless. I don't really get what you mean by this. Solo MMR is a measure of whether you help or hinder your team's effort at victory. It's a measure of your total ability as a Dota player when matched with randoms. You don't need to carry (either in terms of dominating or playing 1/2 role) at all. I can have zero kills and more deaths than assists as a support and still be key to a game if I create space for my carries. We had a lone druid in a game who AFK farmed all game, never came to team fights until we had lost so much map control he was forced too. He ended that game with a 10/4 K/D score. I had a much higher death count in that game, but I likely did way more for my team. Kills don't win you the game, breaking down towers does.
Absolutely. My issue was purely with the idea that you have to "carry" your team.
You don't. If you're on average the 5th best player in the game, you're going to improve the chance of your team winning, thus raise your MMR over enough games.
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On January 06 2014 11:12 Kuroeeah wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 11:10 AndyJay wrote:
Fountain diving is a legitimate gameplay concern that needs to be addressed IMO. I've gotten friends through making a steam account, downloading and installing d2, through the tutorial and then they get fountain camped for 10 mins in there first few games and never play again. It's pointless and only serves to lengthen finished games. it's not as big of a deal as your making it out to be.
I just think it's one of those things that has been in Dota forever so purists will always fight any change, but it adds nothing and significantly detracts from the game.
It's not an issue in LoL or HoN because they have concede, and you can also concede in competitive games so it's not an issue there, but it's a constant annoyance in pub games for anyone that doesn't enjoy the mini-game and just wants to get into another real game.
I completely get why they don't put concede in Dota 2, but a consequence is there needs to be an incentive to end quickly, or a way for a lost team to opt out of playing when they have no chance to fight back.
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How do you remove fountain diving without changing "real" late game scenarios where what can be done around fountain can be important in an undecided game?
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You make the fountain 500 units deeper and make the hero immune if they're standing in the deepest section. In over 1k games I don't think I've seen someone dive the back of the fountain except in trolling. The fact is the rax is the real objective of the game and it's a long way from the fountain.
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What's wrong with fountain farming. Who cares.
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On January 06 2014 12:05 Daozzt wrote:
What's wrong with fountain farming. Who cares.
There are people who can draw out the games and you have to wait for your creeps to finish the job. Those people are jerks and those games are not fun, but they don't happen often.
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I completely disagree that the fountain is a real problem that needs changing. It's part of the game that is what it is, and no tangible advantage is gained by removing it. Just because one or more people is butthurt about it does not mean it "needs to be fixed".
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On January 06 2014 12:14 Staboteur wrote:
I completely disagree that the fountain is a real problem that needs changing. It's part of the game that is what it is, and no tangible advantage is gained by removing it. Just because one or more people is butthurt about it does not mean it "needs to be fixed".
You've just found a reason for removing it. Now find me one reason for keeping it. 'Because it's been that way since AoS' and 'It takes a precious development time away from hats' don't count.
I think 'people get butthurt about it' trumps 'its fun lolz for prolonging games that are over ' for me.
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On January 06 2014 12:18 AndyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2014 12:14 Staboteur wrote:
I completely disagree that the fountain is a real problem that needs changing. It's part of the game that is what it is, and no tangible advantage is gained by removing it. Just because one or more people is butthurt about it does not mean it "needs to be fixed". You've just found a reason for removing it. Now find me one reason for keeping it. 'Because it's been that way since AoS' and 'It takes a precious development time away from hats' don't count. I think 'people get butthurt about it' trumps 'its fun lolz for prolonging games that are over ' for me.
Reason for removing:
- A few people dislike it.
Reason for keeping it:
- A few people like it.
Seems pretty balanced to me, without any kind of numbers attached to it.
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Just smoke out and farm enemy jungle or build paths in trees when you're about to get fountain camped. 
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One or more people view it as a reward for a game well played and are just as invested in padding their KDA so their Dotabuff looks pretty as other are about defending their KDA so their Dotabuff looks pretty. In other words, people LIKE fountaincamping, as evidenced by the fact that people do it.
Both arguments are worthless unless it can be proven that MORE people dislike it than people like it, or vice versa. To that I say : Good Luck.
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To be clear, I am not going to be heart broken if they remove it some how, but I don't really care if its in there or not. If people want to fountain farm, I'll just alt tab and do some reading on a 5 minute timer.
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Yeah I don't only play Pudge and really, really enjoy fountain camping, I'm just generally opposed to the idea of people having to be protected from their own feelings. This isn't just restricted to Dota.
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EPT
