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On December 27 2013 11:38 Belisarius wrote:
Yeah bkb is a single click so spam is fine. Spells which need two actions (key-click) are much harder to spam without quick-cast.
I don't use it at the moment, but i'm really starting to think quick-cast is superior. I haven't seen a single thing brought up which is an advantage for slow-cast.
Yes, the advantages for QC are situational, but dota is a game built on situations. If there's something which is advantageous in a small number of situations, but the alternative is advantageous in no situations at all, the first one seems outright better to me.
Try casting something like split earth or light strike array and hit your enemy from maximum range. This is much harder with smart cast because you don't get the aoe targeting image.
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I'd rather have 100% control over my actions, that is the best case for slow cast and honestly completely valid. If you prefer having less control over your spells quick cast is better.
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On December 27 2013 11:15 Russano wrote:
So why aren't there a bunch of Dota 2 fanclubs like there are for SC2? Don't think I've even seen a single one.
There's one for Tobi, it's buried somewhere in the Fan Clubs section
also, after SingSing started posting on TL I kept telling myself that I should really make one for him, then I realised that I don't have the attention span to make the OP and/or keep it updated.
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On December 27 2013 09:32 NotYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2013 09:05 canikizu wrote:
+ For example, every heroes can do autoattack+spells combo. It's not uncommon to see a DK, Puck autoattack a creep then instantly breatfhfire to kill it and damage the hero in the back, or a Rubick do combo attack+Q+attack+W+attack,.v.v.. Autoattack+spell is a common combo that exists for every heroes out there. The majority of heroes have long enough attack animations that Attack->Q->Click still has you waiting for a few fractions of a second before you have to click anyway. You either need a very fast attack animation or very fast attack speed for it to actually matter in this case because most of the time attack animations are slow enough for you to target-click before they finish. Show nested quote +On December 27 2013 09:05 canikizu wrote:
+ Although a lot of heroes don't have good combo to utilize quickcasting indeed, but together with utility items like forcestaff, blink, they can always have a wombo combo. Valve only implemented quickcasting for spells, not items. Since almost all the item have zero casting time, if Valve were to implement quickcasting for items too, you'll see significant advantage of quickcasting over the conventional one. Well no, with items it makes very little difference because you can shift-queue items since they have no backswing. Shift-queueing items is pretty much always going to be superior to trying to spam them in succession. See the Tinker example I presented earlier. Show nested quote +On December 27 2013 09:05 canikizu wrote:
+ When you compare between Q and Q+click, it doesn't look much faster. But if you compare between Q+click+Q+click+Q+click+Q+click and Q+Q+Q+Q+Q+Q+Q+Q, it look much "50% more efficient." For example, there're cases when you're CK or Sven that want to stun a aegis-revived Antimage, it's almost impossible to use Q+click to stun him from blink away, but when you keep spamming QQQQQ on him, there're better chances you can stun him right when he just revived. the same is also true for Antimage, when you are reviving, spamming W+click+W+click to blink away may be slower than just spam WWWWWW. What? Clicking thin air with a targeted spell doesn't drop your targeting cursor. You can press Q and spam-click the ground where he's going to revive. You aren't pressing Q+click+Q+click+Q+click+Q+click in that scenario. With the Anti-mage case I'm not sure, but you might actually be able to cheat that one with shift-queueing in the DotA 2 engine. Show nested quote +On December 27 2013 09:05 canikizu wrote:
+ When you are chasing someone in the jungle, normal casting makes it hard to catch the other guy because by the time you hit Q+click, you lose their sight again. On the other hand, spamming QQQQ while chasing and they'll never cutejuke you again. I actually find it more common that you actually get the target off, but your animation doesn't complete before you lose vision, causing your hero to drop all commands. In fact, if the vision issue you mentioned actually arises, the time they're in vision is going to be short enough for them to drop targeting before your animation completes UNLESS it involves one of the aforementioned instant animation heroes.
- I've never said that you cannot do those stuffs with normal casting. If you're quick and consistent enough, you can easily do those with normal casting. It's all about how fast you can cancel the cast/attack backswing.
For example, If my speed to do Q+click is 0.6, and do only Q cost me 0.3. DK's attack backswing is 0.5, so if people like me use normal casting, it would not be good because I cannot eliminate the attack backswing. On the other hand, using quickcasting can help people like me tremendously. It has nothing to do with the followup cast/attackpoint because if you don't do it, you don't cast/attack anyway.
- It's true that items has no backswing, but spells still have backswing. If you do blink/forcestaff + spells, then shift-queue is ok, but what's about spells+blink/forcestaff? In Dota, shift-queue does not eliminate backswing, so if you shift-queue a lot of spells, it's not that efficient. For example, if you do QoP W >> shift queue >> sheepstick >> Q >> E you just take full 2sec backswing from W and Q.
Not to mention, for example to do the Tiny blink combo.
normal cast: hover mouse to the enemy > alt+item > click > autoattack > Q > click > W > click > autoattack
quick cast: hover mouse to the enemy > alt+item > autoattack > Q > W > autoattack
quickcast is obviously "quicker"
- Ok this one I didn't make myself clear. Of course in static scenario where everybody stands still, then both cases are the same, but usually there're a lot of movement involved, you usually still have to right click to move around hitting stuffs. It's much easier to move around and hover to the aegis tomb and QQQQ then move then QQQQ than keep Q and click then move and Q and click. Not to mention you can accidently click on your teammate.
I don't think you can shift-queue with Antimage, since he was dead and the icon is disable.
- If he can juke you in less time than your cast-point, then it doesn't matter in both cases anyway. Quickcasting only provide you a way to spam your spells so that you can archive a sweet spot where he's not fast enough to juke you, but fast enough to dodge your spell+click+right click to chase.
TLDR: If accuracy is the least of your concern, quickcasting make you cast spells faster!
On December 27 2013 09:35 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2013 09:31 canikizu wrote:On December 27 2013 09:21 Kuroeeah wrote:
It's so minor in the grand scheme of things, I don't see how your actually trying to make a case for someone who uses quick casting binds is somehow mechanically superior over someone that doesn't. No, he was saying that quickcasting is only good for combo, and since dota2 don't have many heroes that have combo, so it's not that worth it to use quickcasting. I gave cases that show even when you don't have combo, you can still use quickcasting. I've never once said it's superior. As you can see in the examples, quickcasting is better when you are in spamming mode. You don't need accuracy when you're spamming targetspells. I don't see what's wrong with the argument that quickcasting makes the spells go off quicker... If it's not superior, whathever you chose doesn't matter. Yet you made quite a long post explaining when it's superior and why it matters. If you list several situations where it is superior and there is no drawback, it's hard to believe you don't think it's actually superior. Show nested quote +That's why I've never used the old normal cast again, smartcasting is just way better. I prefer the League's one though. In league, although it's also smartcast, the spells are executed when you release the button, so as long as you hold down the key, the spells don't cast. In dota though, spells are casted as soon as you press the key, so sometimes you can still miss aim your spells, hence. Smite also implements both kind of casting from both games (smartcast and instantcast).
I've been using smartcasting in every games I'm playing now. And you never said it was superior...
In that previous post, of course I was biased because that's what I'm using. I'm as biased to quickcasting as other people biased to normalcasting. I enjoy quickcasting because accuracy is the least of my concern. I don't have moment where I go "aw if only I didn't quickcasting that". Some people have fast hand, some people have better accuracy, people are different. Quickcasting provides what I need without compromising what I have too much, then I enjoy it.
However, It has nothing to do with the post I talked about combowombo. In that post, I only inform the other guy that quickcasting provide some other advantages that just doing combowombo, which is what he assumes that's all quickcast can do. Let me get this straight, so to you, if one person don't know why one option is better, and another person tries to explain the features that are better, then he's trying to be biased? yeah right...
If somebody wants to ask why normal casting option is better, I'll make the same post like that too...
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They are better in certain situations. The thing is the situations where you need precision more than speed occur far more often than the situations where you require speed more than precision because of how the speed of animations caps the speed at which you can perform actions.
On December 27 2013 12:08 canikizu wrote:
Not to mention, for example to do the Tiny blink combo.
normal cast: hover mouse to the enemy > alt+item > click > autoattack > Q > click > W > click > autoattack
quick cast: hover mouse to the enemy > alt+item > autoattack > Q > W > autoattack
quickcast is obviously "quicker"
I already addressed this. Because of the DotA 2 bug where casting Toss immediately after Avalanche causes you to miss a tick of double Avalanche damage, the speed difference actually has zero difference on the Tiny combo because you HAVE to wait for a split second after Avalanche before casting Toss ANYWAY. Tossing immediately actually causes you to lose damage.
EDIT: Also, who takes 0.3s to click the mouse? Median human reaction time is like 0.2s, it should take far less than that to click after a keypress that YOU are making. The difference between keypress and keypress+click should be on the order of 0.1s, which is why I'm saying it's negligible compared to most animations except for those that are almost-instant (0.2s or less heroes).
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On December 27 2013 08:23 NotYango wrote:The thing is, the primary benefit of smartcasting in LoL simply doesn't exist in DotA. Smartcasting's primary benefit doesn't come to light for single spell casts. What it's really good for is consecutive spell casts in rapid succession. This is very common in LoL because the majority of heroes in the game either have negligible cast animations or none at all. Combos are executed as fast as you cast the spells, so it's important to be able to cast them quickly. In DotA this is very rare. The majority of heroes have significant cast animations that are far longer than the time needed to click-cast spells anyway, so there's simply no real gain from smartcasting. Of the remaining zero-animation heroes, many of them are not combo-based or have long built-in delays into their combo spells, and are therefore more dependent on precise management of that delay rather than quick casting (Invoker is the best example of this--it's not casting spells quickly that's needed, but being able to invoke properly and to properly have a feel for the delay on things like Euls, Sun Strike, Meteor, Tornado, EMP, etc.). Additionally, any 0-animation hero that also has zero backswing can simply shift-queue for the same immediate-casting effect. A quick overview of the hero list turned up only 7 heroes that really seem to benefit significantly from smartcast: Dragon Knight, Earth Spirit, Ember Spirit, Puck, Rubick, Skywrath, AA. Earth Spirit's kind of borderline because if you are good with shift-queueing you can actually shift-queue everything because he has 0 backswing, so proficient shift-queueing would achieve the same effect. Tiny would be on that list if Ava+Toss behaved like DotA 1, but because of how Avalanche bonus damage is bugged in DotA 2 to not double the damage on the last tick if you Toss too soon, you don't want to cast Toss immediately after Avalanche, so there's not really an advantage to smartcasting in that case. Show nested quote +On December 27 2013 08:11 Staboteur wrote:
So I'd say it's generally less important to Dota, but if you're eblade blink dagon tinker, you might as well use it :D If you're Tinker, you can achieve the equivalent effect by shift-queueing, and actually can do so more reliably because you have the 1s downtime during Rearm's channel to queue up your next round of spells, as opposed to having to click everything on demand. It's actually slower to smartcast than to shiftqueue Blink+Eblade+Dagon during your Rearm.
At least for me, the most important advantage of smartcasting (in both Dota and LoL) isn't speed but ease of execution. Every spell and item cast (well, most of them, anyway) can be done with less clicks, like if I'm playing enigma and I want to blink, midnight pulse and black hole, it would take usually take 6 clicks without smartcasting but only 3 with it.
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On December 27 2013 12:25 NotYango wrote:They are better in certain situations. The thing is the situations where you need precision more than speed occur far more often than the situations where you require speed more than precision because of how the speed of animations caps the speed at which you can perform actions. Show nested quote +On December 27 2013 12:08 canikizu wrote:
Not to mention, for example to do the Tiny blink combo.
normal cast: hover mouse to the enemy > alt+item > click > autoattack > Q > click > W > click > autoattack
quick cast: hover mouse to the enemy > alt+item > autoattack > Q > W > autoattack
quickcast is obviously "quicker" I already addressed this. Because of the DotA 2 bug where casting Toss immediately after Avalanche causes you to miss a tick of double Avalanche damage, the speed difference actually has zero difference on the Tiny combo because you HAVE to wait for a split second after Avalanche before casting Toss ANYWAY. Tossing immediately actually causes you to lose damage.
Precision, accuracy is just subjective matter. If I have 9 Accuracy and only need 5 Accuracy and do what I want to do, then what's the point of having more? It's reasonable to trade off some for something else that I need. Why do we even discuss this lol??
Normal and Quick casting are just features, and like any other features, they both have advantage and disadvantage. It's each person's job to recognize which one is better FOR HIM and maximize that advantage and minimize the disadvantage.
Tiny combo is just an example, point is, if there were no bug, it would be faster and more consistent, less taxing for people who don't have fast hand. Moreover, I can always hold back the W to time it, quickcast doesn't mean i'm gonna spam mindlessly in every situations.
On December 27 2013 12:30 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2013 08:23 NotYango wrote:The thing is, the primary benefit of smartcasting in LoL simply doesn't exist in DotA. Smartcasting's primary benefit doesn't come to light for single spell casts. What it's really good for is consecutive spell casts in rapid succession. This is very common in LoL because the majority of heroes in the game either have negligible cast animations or none at all. Combos are executed as fast as you cast the spells, so it's important to be able to cast them quickly. In DotA this is very rare. The majority of heroes have significant cast animations that are far longer than the time needed to click-cast spells anyway, so there's simply no real gain from smartcasting. Of the remaining zero-animation heroes, many of them are not combo-based or have long built-in delays into their combo spells, and are therefore more dependent on precise management of that delay rather than quick casting (Invoker is the best example of this--it's not casting spells quickly that's needed, but being able to invoke properly and to properly have a feel for the delay on things like Euls, Sun Strike, Meteor, Tornado, EMP, etc.). Additionally, any 0-animation hero that also has zero backswing can simply shift-queue for the same immediate-casting effect. A quick overview of the hero list turned up only 7 heroes that really seem to benefit significantly from smartcast: Dragon Knight, Earth Spirit, Ember Spirit, Puck, Rubick, Skywrath, AA. Earth Spirit's kind of borderline because if you are good with shift-queueing you can actually shift-queue everything because he has 0 backswing, so proficient shift-queueing would achieve the same effect. Tiny would be on that list if Ava+Toss behaved like DotA 1, but because of how Avalanche bonus damage is bugged in DotA 2 to not double the damage on the last tick if you Toss too soon, you don't want to cast Toss immediately after Avalanche, so there's not really an advantage to smartcasting in that case. On December 27 2013 08:11 Staboteur wrote:
So I'd say it's generally less important to Dota, but if you're eblade blink dagon tinker, you might as well use it :D If you're Tinker, you can achieve the equivalent effect by shift-queueing, and actually can do so more reliably because you have the 1s downtime during Rearm's channel to queue up your next round of spells, as opposed to having to click everything on demand. It's actually slower to smartcast than to shiftqueue Blink+Eblade+Dagon during your Rearm. At least for me, the most important advantage of smartcasting (in both Dota and LoL) isn't speed but ease of execution. Every spell and item cast (well, most of them, anyway) can be done with less clicks, like if I'm playing enigma and I want to blink, midnight pulse and black hole, it would take usually take 6 clicks without smartcasting but only 3 with it.
Agree. A lot.
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is there a way to disable the valve logo startup?
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
On December 27 2013 15:45 PassiveAce wrote:
is there a way to disable the valve logo startup?
Once You stop playing Earth Spirit it deactivates itself.
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guess il just have to live with it.
thx finesthour
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its actually "-no vid"
nvm im stupid
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On December 27 2013 16:12 PassiveAce wrote:
guess il just have to live with it.
thx finesthour
Don't listen to finest hour - if you are playing Earth Spirit, uninstalling Dota forever should fix it.
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
I've played like 20 games of Earth Spirit and I have to say it : I got bored of this hero. Damn, seriously, I'll never play him again.
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quitter.
il stop playing earth spirit when he stops being the most fun hero in dota
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
I much prefer playing AA than OPspirit. Sniping people with ulti is more fun than rolling and kickin.
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I haven't played a lot of earth spirit, but I am considering it. My pub ranking needs a boost.
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then play furion, a stronger hero at low level if you try to be trixi
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That would require me to play that stupid tree man and kill a little part of my soul.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On December 27 2013 21:22 Erasme wrote:
then play furion, a stronger hero at low level if you try to be trixi
game is lost too quickly
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EPT
