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The thing is, the primary benefit of smartcasting in LoL simply doesn't exist in DotA.
Smartcasting's primary benefit doesn't come to light for single spell casts. What it's really good for is consecutive spell casts in rapid succession. This is very common in LoL because the majority of heroes in the game either have negligible cast animations or none at all. Combos are executed as fast as you cast the spells, so it's important to be able to cast them quickly.
In DotA this is very rare. The majority of heroes have significant cast animations that are far longer than the time needed to click-cast spells anyway, so there's simply no real gain from smartcasting. Of the remaining zero-animation heroes, many of them are not combo-based or have long built-in delays into their combo spells, and are therefore more dependent on precise management of that delay rather than quick casting (Invoker is the best example of this--it's not casting spells quickly that's needed, but being able to invoke properly and to properly have a feel for the delay on things like Euls, Sun Strike, Meteor, Tornado, EMP, etc.). Additionally, any 0-animation hero that also has zero backswing can simply shift-queue for the same immediate-casting effect.
A quick overview of the hero list turned up only 7 heroes that really seem to benefit significantly from smartcast: Dragon Knight, Earth Spirit, Ember Spirit, Puck, Rubick, Skywrath, AA. Earth Spirit's kind of borderline because if you are good with shift-queueing you can actually shift-queue everything because he has 0 backswing, so proficient shift-queueing would achieve the same effect.
Tiny would be on that list if Ava+Toss behaved like DotA 1, but because of how Avalanche bonus damage is bugged in DotA 2 to not double the damage on the last tick if you Toss too soon, you don't want to cast Toss immediately after Avalanche, so there's not really an advantage to smartcasting in that case.
On December 27 2013 08:11 Staboteur wrote:
So I'd say it's generally less important to Dota, but if you're eblade blink dagon tinker, you might as well use it :D
If you're Tinker, you can achieve the equivalent effect by shift-queueing, and actually can do so more reliably because you have the 1s downtime during Rearm's channel to queue up your next round of spells, as opposed to having to click everything on demand. It's actually slower to smartcast than to shiftqueue Blink+Eblade+Dagon during your Rearm.
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listening to good music isnt that eezy for arteezy... really wtf
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Fuck, who stabbed Dota......
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On December 27 2013 07:53 PassiveAce wrote:
after playing around with it all day I think I like quick casting for unit-targeted spells and regular casting for most aoe. gonna look around for some weird setting that might let me do that.
to me it seems like quick casting is fine even for aoe spells as long as you are intimately familiar with the radius.
Yeah, quickcasting is excellent for target or line spells. AOE spells are harder if you don't know about the radius.
This is not the disadvantage of quickcasting, it's because Valve badly implemented it. Quickcasting always go together with spell indicator like normalcasting. If you play normal casting and don't have spell indicator, the difficulty of 2 cases are gonna be the same
On December 27 2013 08:11 Staboteur wrote:
League has heroes (...champions) like Ryze / Cassio / Annie / Anivia / Veigar that have specific combos to perform and benefit from the removal of the mouseclicks in the combo because to a certain extent the speed at which you execute your combo is important. For these heroes, smartcasting matters.
Dota has very few combo-based heroes that combo with single-target spells that need the same level of optimized combos, and a lot of combo-based heroes have spells that don't require precise targeted spell clicks, I.E.Tinker, Storm Spirit, Queen of Pain. Where in League it's fairly common to have a caster type hero that has two or three single-target spells, it's actually quite rare for Dota to have heroes with a bunch of precise spells.
So I'd say it's generally less important to Dota, but if you're eblade blink dagon tinker, you might as well use it :D
It matters more than you think.
+ For example, every heroes can do autoattack+spells combo. It's not uncommon to see a DK, Puck autoattack a creep then instantly breatfhfire to kill it and damage the hero in the back, or a Rubick do combo attack+Q+attack+W+attack,.v.v.. Autoattack+spell is a common combo that exists for every heroes out there.
+ Although a lot of heroes don't have good combo to utilize quickcasting indeed, but together with utility items like forcestaff, blink, they can always have a wombo combo. Valve only implemented quickcasting for spells, not items. Since almost all the item have zero casting time, if Valve were to implement quickcasting for items too, you'll see significant advantage of quickcasting over the conventional one.
+ When you compare between Q and Q+click, it doesn't look much faster. But if you compare between Q+click+Q+click+Q+click+Q+click and Q+Q+Q+Q+Q+Q+Q+Q, it look much "50% more efficient." For example, there're cases when you're CK or Sven that want to stun a aegis-revived Antimage, it's almost impossible to use Q+click to stun him from blink away, but when you keep spamming QQQQQ on him, there're better chances you can stun him right when he just revived. the same is also true for Antimage, when you are reviving, spamming W+click+W+click to blink away may be slower than just spam WWWWWW.
+ When you are chasing someone in the jungle, normal casting makes it hard to catch the other guy because by the time you hit Q+click, you lose their sight again. On the other hand, spamming QQQQ while chasing and they'll never cutejuke you again.
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11696 Posts
It's so minor in the grand scheme of things, I don't see how your actually trying to make a case for someone who uses quick casting binds is somehow mechanically superior over someone that doesn't.
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It's pretty close to saying people shouldn't use Legacy because QWER is just more efficient.
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On December 27 2013 09:21 Kuroeeah wrote:
It's so minor in the grand scheme of things, I don't see how your actually trying to make a case for someone who uses quick casting binds is somehow mechanically superior over someone that doesn't.
No, he was saying that quickcasting is only good for combo, and since dota2 don't have many heroes that have combo, so it's not that worth it to use quickcasting. I gave cases that show even when you don't have combo, you can still use quickcasting. I've never once said it's superior.
As you can see in the examples, quickcasting is better when you are in spamming mode. You don't need accuracy when you're spamming targetspells. I don't see what's wrong with the argument that quickcasting makes the spells go off quicker...
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On December 27 2013 09:05 canikizu wrote:
+ For example, every heroes can do autoattack+spells combo. It's not uncommon to see a DK, Puck autoattack a creep then instantly breatfhfire to kill it and damage the hero in the back, or a Rubick do combo attack+Q+attack+W+attack,.v.v.. Autoattack+spell is a common combo that exists for every heroes out there.
The majority of heroes have long enough attack animations that Attack->Q->Click still has you waiting for a few fractions of a second before you have to click anyway. You either need a very fast attack animation or very fast attack speed for it to actually matter in this case because most of the time attack animations are slow enough for you to target-click before they finish. This pretty much means only carries will have high enough attack speed for this lategame, and most carries don't have targeted spells that make sense to use that way at the point.
On December 27 2013 09:05 canikizu wrote:
+ Although a lot of heroes don't have good combo to utilize quickcasting indeed, but together with utility items like forcestaff, blink, they can always have a wombo combo. Valve only implemented quickcasting for spells, not items. Since almost all the item have zero casting time, if Valve were to implement quickcasting for items too, you'll see significant advantage of quickcasting over the conventional one.
Well no, with items it makes very little difference because you can shift-queue items since they have no backswing. Shift-queueing items is pretty much always going to be superior to trying to spam them in succession. See the Tinker example I presented earlier.
On December 27 2013 09:05 canikizu wrote:
+ When you compare between Q and Q+click, it doesn't look much faster. But if you compare between Q+click+Q+click+Q+click+Q+click and Q+Q+Q+Q+Q+Q+Q+Q, it look much "50% more efficient." For example, there're cases when you're CK or Sven that want to stun a aegis-revived Antimage, it's almost impossible to use Q+click to stun him from blink away, but when you keep spamming QQQQQ on him, there're better chances you can stun him right when he just revived. the same is also true for Antimage, when you are reviving, spamming W+click+W+click to blink away may be slower than just spam WWWWWW.
What? Clicking thin air with a targeted spell doesn't drop your targeting cursor. You can press Q and spam-click the ground where he's going to revive. You aren't pressing Q+click+Q+click+Q+click+Q+click in that scenario.
With the Anti-mage case I'm not sure, but you might actually be able to cheat that one with shift-queueing in the DotA 2 engine.
On December 27 2013 09:05 canikizu wrote:
+ When you are chasing someone in the jungle, normal casting makes it hard to catch the other guy because by the time you hit Q+click, you lose their sight again. On the other hand, spamming QQQQ while chasing and they'll never cutejuke you again.
I actually find it more common that you actually get the target off, but your animation doesn't complete before you lose vision, causing your hero to drop all commands. In fact, if the vision issue you mentioned actually arises, the time they're in vision is going to be short enough for them to drop targeting before your animation completes UNLESS it involves one of the aforementioned instant animation heroes.
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On December 27 2013 09:31 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2013 09:21 Kuroeeah wrote:
It's so minor in the grand scheme of things, I don't see how your actually trying to make a case for someone who uses quick casting binds is somehow mechanically superior over someone that doesn't. No, he was saying that quickcasting is only good for combo, and since dota2 don't have many heroes that have combo, so it's not that worth it to use quickcasting. I gave cases that show even when you don't have combo, you can still use quickcasting. I've never once said it's superior. As you can see in the examples, quickcasting is better when you are in spamming mode. You don't need accuracy when you're spamming targetspells. I don't see what's wrong with the argument that quickcasting makes the spells go off quicker...
If it's not superior, whathever you chose doesn't matter. Yet you made quite a long post explaining when it's superior and why it matters.
If you list several situations where it is superior and there is no drawback, it's hard to believe you don't think it's actually superior.
That's why I've never used the old normal cast again, smartcasting is just way better. I prefer the League's one though. In league, although it's also smartcast, the spells are executed when you release the button, so as long as you hold down the key, the spells don't cast. In dota though, spells are casted as soon as you press the key, so sometimes you can still miss aim your spells, hence. Smite also implements both kind of casting from both games (smartcast and instantcast).
I've been using smartcasting in every games I'm playing now.
And you never said it was superior...
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H4nn1 just went shirtless. Time to lock my door.
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I haven't been around as much as I'd like lately. Questions for you..
- Where is Yango?
- Is NotYango confirmed Yango?
- I'm at 3300 mmr. How bad am I? (Bad, but how bad?)
Thank you, and happy holiday dotaing. <3
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Yango is dojing his 20k post
Notyango is baller
3300 mmr is pretty decent compared to everyone, and pretty okay compared to higher tier players
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11696 Posts
h4nn1 isn't as ripped as he was before, still pretty ripped though.
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On December 27 2013 09:37 Emnjay808 wrote:
H4nn1 just went shirtless. Time to lock my door.
damn my family is too close.. gotta save the vod i guess.
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Aside from the heroes yango listed, its important to note that any hero with orb-walking generally benefits greatly from mobacastas well. I personally use moba casting for most heroes because i'm comfortable enough with most aoes for it to not affect my accuracy and having to press 1 less button allows me to pay more attention to what i'm doing on my second screen.
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Is it possible to use shift-queueing to cast a spell the instant you are able to? (eg. blink out of stun/aegis etc)
That seems like the best case for quick-cast that I can see. Spam-key-click on ground target spells is really inefficient.
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On December 27 2013 10:44 Belisarius wrote:
Is it possible to use shift-queueing to cast a spell the instant you are able to? (eg. blink out of stun/aegis etc)
That seems like the best case for quick-cast that I can see. Spam-key-click on ground target spells is really inefficient.
i think LoH queued his bkb during sleep during TI2 "The Play"
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So why aren't there a bunch of Dota 2 fanclubs like there are for SC2? Don't think I've even seen a single one.
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On December 27 2013 11:14 icystorage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2013 10:44 Belisarius wrote:
Is it possible to use shift-queueing to cast a spell the instant you are able to? (eg. blink out of stun/aegis etc)
That seems like the best case for quick-cast that I can see. Spam-key-click on ground target spells is really inefficient. i think LoH queued his bkb during sleep during TI2 "The Play"
no he just spammed the shit out of his bkb hotkey
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Yeah bkb is a single click so spam is fine. Spells which need two actions (key-click) are much harder to spam without quick-cast.
I don't use it at the moment, but i'm really starting to think quick-cast is superior. I haven't seen a single thing brought up which is an advantage for slow-cast.
Yes, the advantages for QC are situational, but dota is a game built on situations. If there's something which is advantageous in a small number of situations, but the alternative is advantageous in no situations at all, the first one seems outright better to me.
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EPT
