EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 4493
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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
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rebdomine
6040 Posts
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On December 09 2013 13:48 Shaella wrote: It doesn't matter comeh It will never matter and morphling will never be buffed AND LOVE IS DEAD Love dead and morphling unbuffed are directly related. | ||
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
On December 09 2013 14:10 NotYango wrote: It's a lot more mind-gamey than people are making it out to be. Generally if there are two creeps that can both be last-hit, you going for one means the other player can go for the other one. It's not so much 1 deny vs. 1 lasthit, but more like, if we both get a deny or both get a lasthit, what happens. If the enemy for whatever reason can't go for the one you don't go for (too low HP to get close enough without being at risk of a kill, getting items from courier, etc. then you go for the lasthit because there's no gold swing on a lasthit that he couldn't go for anyway UNLESS you need the deny to maintain your lane equilibrium. This again is further complicated by what happens when both players go for the same creep of those two. If two players go for the same creep, the guy who misses the creep "wastes" his autoattack, because nobody got the other creep that was in lasthit/deny range, and the other player got the lasthit/deny. This is actually where the advantage of having a better animation comes in. While some players say "oh if you lasthit perfectly, animation does't matter", that's not quite true. Having a faster animation/projectile speed means you can act second and still get the lasthit first. In situations where both heroes could go for the 2 lasthits, the guy with the faster animation can wait for the slower hero to commit to a target first, and then possibly still have a chance to cut him off on the lasthit he wants to go for. Of course, rarely do two heroes actually have an animation difference that big, so in practice this results in bluffing with S-canceling attacks. It's not really a mind-gamey question is it? Isn't the question just "Which is more vauable, a last hit or a deny?" and the simple truth is that a last hit is worth around 45 gold, whereas a deny is worth 26 or 5 denied experience. In most cases the ~45 gold is worth more/easier to use than the denied experience. I mean, practically applied you want to do whatever nets you the most of both and deprives them of as much of either as possible... but that isn't really the question. This post made me a vulture. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
It is actually a mind-game question unless the matchup is so skewed that the other mid can't approach the creepwave. Yes, you can simplify it, but if you do that then "which is more valuable" is trivial because a lasthit is valued at 45g and a deny is valued at precisely 0g. As soon as you consider it at any level deeper than that, you should look at the whole situation. Having said that, I would still say lasthits are better to go for in most cases. Remember denies are always worth 5 denied XP now, too, because the ranged/melee thing no longer exists. | ||
TheEmulator
28103 Posts
On December 09 2013 15:16 teapoted wrote: Went to sleep after game 1 of the EMS final. Wake up and VG 3-0 after that. Poor Fnatic. Feel so bad for Fnatic. They keep getting so close to winning but yet they just can't get it done  | ||
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
But otherwise, you're right. It's too complicated to give an actual answer to... I just wanted to come up with an answer of practical use to people  HEY TL I know I'm not allowed to change my name, but will you let me do it if I change one letter a month over however many months it takes? :D | ||
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
On December 09 2013 18:08 TheEmulator wrote: Feel so bad for Fnatic. They keep getting so close to winning but yet they just can't get it done More like Kongnatic am i right? Boom. But yeah its hard not to feel bad for them, they've gotta be itching for it pretty bad now. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
Some thoughts off the top of my head: - In a 1v1 vacuum focussing on denying is going to be very valuable because not only does it deny the opponent gold but it also keeps them underlevelled due to denied XP letting you bully them around the lane more (in theory). - The problem is that in a normal DOTA2 game you're NOT in a 1v1 vacuum and other lanes are picking up creep kills and getting gold for items. Which means that you're likely to win your lane, yes, but you'll also likely be way behind in items so you're basically going to be dead weight against the rest of the other team. - How much that matters depends on how important the opposing mid was to the other team. | ||
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
Like if ur a clockwerk, you don't have to worry about item timings as much, nor do you have to be a core in any way. Compare to like, QoP which wants levels and trying to get a fast orchid, or Puck/mag and their blinks. Sometimes working to delay that timing of a blink or something is mega worth it, depending on lineup | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
On December 09 2013 19:09 -Celestial- wrote: Honestly I think its simpler than people are making out. Some thoughts off the top of my head: - In a 1v1 vacuum focussing on denying is going to be very valuable because not only does it deny the opponent gold but it also keeps them underlevelled due to denied XP letting you bully them around the lane more (in theory). - The problem is that in a normal DOTA2 game you're NOT in a 1v1 vacuum and other lanes are picking up creep kills and getting gold for items. Which means that you're likely to win your lane, yes, but you'll also likely be way behind in items so you're basically going to be dead weight against the rest of the other team. - How much that matters depends on how important the opposing mid was to the other team. In 1v1 shadowfiend deny is many more important than last hit because kill timing is all about raze. So small experience lead can be quick kill, this can translate to other hero matchups too. First creep for bottle is most important, then denying if you can kill is more important. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
The con here is that if he got a regen rune then it hurt you so badly or if you weren't careful enough when you harass him (the creep aggro etc) then you will get into troubles (like you ended up spending more consumable or you pushed the creep wave or you needed to cross the river and you get ganked. | ||
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Xypski
Denmark156 Posts
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
On December 09 2013 19:58 Xypski wrote: this is a joke discussion right? lhs>denies, but obviously get both. Only the Sith deal in absolutes. | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
On December 09 2013 12:22 Delphiki wrote: people really trying hard to make yango waste his 20k here. i like it | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
So while a deny in and of itself is worth more than a last hit, actually going for a deny is worth less. The only way actually going for denies is better is if you can pretty much guarantee you'll get them thanks to either MU advantage or player skill or something. (Throw in "all else equal", generally, etc. wherever I missed it.) | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On December 09 2013 20:42 zezamer wrote: dendi favors denies over lh so it must be viable Well thats the other aspect to it. If a player is confident they can outplay their opponent mid then it makes sense to go for more denies because it increases the chance of a kill. Which will put them even further ahead, make up somewhat for lost cs and let them dominate the lane. However between two more equal players I feel it comes down to whether your hero or the opponent's is vitally important to your team (i.e. as a carry or something). If there's an OD mid, for example, I believe you'd want to favour denies to slow his levelling. Same for Shadow Fiend except in his case you're also blocking soul gathering. | ||
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