EPTGeneral Discussion - Page 4492
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
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wairai
Malaysia1000 Posts
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On December 09 2013 12:19 Shaella wrote: Consider the following If you focus on denying over last hitting, yes, you as a hero will be higher leveled than your opponent, however There are 4 other enemies on the map. You're in a 1v1, your team relies on you not just to win your lane, but to come out of it with items so you can do things like gank. Additional items also increase your ability to farm or gank more efficiently. You can have a big impact that way Finally, getting underleveled hurts, but it doesn't hurt that much on a lot of heros, a single teamfight can catch you up. people forget that dotes is a 5man game, crippling yourself to cripple someone else often isn't worth it as a core hero I don't see how any of these arguments are supposed to counter what I'm saying - they are an argument about the importance of gold swing, but, again, denying is the exact same gold swing as last hits are. You're stopping your opposing mid from getting his items and blahblahblah whilst getting higher levels. They are just as crippled in farm and worse off in levels. Thinking about it, I guess the issue may be that it's much harder to deny than last hit if two opposing players are going for the same creep because last hits can be secured with spells while denies cannot (with obvious exceptions) so in the long run you're going to lose out. IDK, that's really the only thing I can think of, but then you just need to keep on top of how much mana they have/whether it's worth forcing the mana usage, etc. to see whether you go for the deny over the last hit. Meh, it's all so complex and dependent on specifics in an actual that a definitive answer can't be given, but I really think people undervalue denies to a very large extent. On December 09 2013 12:24 aintz wrote: you go for last hits because that way you can get your midas faster. You're delaying their Midas just as much though. ;] | ||
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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
i just hit enter 5 times | ||
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GtC
United States546 Posts
On December 09 2013 12:46 Kuroeeah wrote: the yangos 20kth post better be something good if he's still reserving it to this day My theory is that NotYango is really Yango satisfying his urge to answer questions while he plans his 20k post. | ||
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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On December 09 2013 12:50 GtC wrote: I remember I used to think the same thing when I started. It's hard to break down why people generally go for last hits because it sort of just has a gut feeling to it. My personal belief as to why it's better to go for last hits is because the denied xp isn't nearly as large as you would believe even if you accumulate a significant number of denies. Also, as you said, it can be really difficult to deny creeps against even most lvl 1 nukes. My theory is that NotYango is really Yango satisfying his urge to answer questions while he plans his 20k post. That's pretty much confirmed by now. | ||
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Kuroeeah
11696 Posts
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
On December 09 2013 12:50 GtC wrote: I remember I used to think the same thing when I started. It's hard to break down why people generally go for last hits because it sort of just has a gut feeling to it. My personal belief as to why it's better to go for last hits is because the denied xp isn't nearly as large as you would believe even if you accumulate a significant number of denies. Also, as you said, it can be really difficult to deny creeps against even most lvl 1 nukes. My theory is that NotYango is really Yango satisfying his urge to answer questions while he plans his 20k post. howd u figure | ||
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
On December 09 2013 12:37 FuzzyJAM wrote: I don't see how any of these arguments are supposed to counter what I'm saying - they are an argument about the importance of gold swing, but, again, denying is the exact same gold swing as last hits are. You're stopping your opposing mid from getting his items and blahblahblah whilst getting higher levels. They are just as crippled in farm and worse off in levels. Thinking about it, I guess the issue may be that it's much harder to deny than last hit if two opposing players are going for the same creep because last hits can be secured with spells while denies cannot (with obvious exceptions) so in the long run you're going to lose out. IDK, that's really the only thing I can think of, but then you just need to keep on top of how much mana they have/whether it's worth forcing the mana usage, etc. to see whether you go for the deny over the last hit. Meh, it's all so complex and dependent on specifics in an actual that a definitive answer can't be given, but I really think people undervalue denies to a very large extent. You're delaying their Midas just as much though. ;] It isn't the same gold swing. If you have 6 denies and he has 6 last hits, the gold swing is 6 last hits in his favour, and item timings are stronger than level timings are, usually. | ||
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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
Support Milkis #1 sugoi dota never bully chyeah (✿◠‿◠) | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On December 09 2013 13:02 Shaella wrote: who even cares about the amount of posts u make When you sink so much time into writing words that nobody reads and dont really matter, its nice to pretend sometimes it does matter. | ||
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Shaella
United States14828 Posts
It will never matter and morphling will never be buffed AND LOVE IS DEAD | ||
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CustomKal
Canada749 Posts
On December 09 2013 12:37 FuzzyJAM wrote: I don't see how any of these arguments are supposed to counter what I'm saying - they are an argument about the importance of gold swing, but, again, denying is the exact same gold swing as last hits are. You're stopping your opposing mid from getting his items and blahblahblah whilst getting higher levels. They are just as crippled in farm and worse off in levels. Thinking about it, I guess the issue may be that it's much harder to deny than last hit if two opposing players are going for the same creep because last hits can be secured with spells while denies cannot (with obvious exceptions) so in the long run you're going to lose out. IDK, that's really the only thing I can think of, but then you just need to keep on top of how much mana they have/whether it's worth forcing the mana usage, etc. to see whether you go for the deny over the last hit. Meh, it's all so complex and dependent on specifics in an actual that a definitive answer can't be given, but I really think people undervalue denies to a very large extent. You're delaying their Midas just as much though. ;] You replied to someone who answered why. The gold swing does not matter at all. If you miss a last hit to deny them, you also miss a last hit and are behind a carry in another lane who didn't miss said last hit. Also consider this, lets say you miss said deny because you get out skilled, you are now down a last hit instead of breaking even. A deny only means something if you completely dominate your lane like an OD and are getting all last hits and denies. It's easier to play catch up in the mid game when your opponents have no farm since they prioritized denying. Being a level behind someone and them having a midas while you don't yet because he out last hit and controlled the lane makes it harder to catch up since he will snowball harder. Lastly, your opponent can get 10 last hits, but if you kill him before he spends that gold he loses it and now you are a good 5-10 cs ahead of your opponents, instead of still even. Last hitting rewards ganking which is incredibly prevalent now. | ||
MrHoon
10183 Posts
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NotYango
United States719 Posts
Generally if there are two creeps that can both be last-hit, you going for one means the other player can go for the other one. It's not so much 1 deny vs. 1 lasthit, but more like, if we both get a deny or both get a lasthit, what happens. If the enemy for whatever reason can't go for the one you don't go for (too low HP to get close enough without being at risk of a kill, getting items from courier, etc. then you go for the lasthit because there's no gold swing on a lasthit that he couldn't go for anyway UNLESS you need the deny to maintain your lane equilibrium. This again is further complicated by what happens when both players go for the same creep of those two. If two players go for the same creep, the guy who misses the creep "wastes" his autoattack, because nobody got the other creep that was in lasthit/deny range, and the other player got the lasthit/deny. This is actually where the advantage of having a better animation comes in. While some players say "oh if you lasthit perfectly, animation does't matter", that's not quite true. Having a faster animation/projectile speed means you can act second and still get the lasthit first. In situations where both heroes could go for the 2 lasthits, the guy with the faster animation can wait for the slower hero to commit to a target first, and then possibly still have a chance to cut him off on the lasthit he wants to go for. Of course, rarely do two heroes actually have an animation difference that big, so in practice this results in bluffing with S-canceling attacks. | ||
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