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On December 02 2013 14:42 FinestHour wrote:
i just dont enjoy reading 5 pages of people complaining about balance in their low level pub games when realistically they could just not suck and play better to win but thats never going to happen i concede
this guy plays flavor of the month anyway
true fax
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On December 02 2013 14:42 FinestHour wrote:
i just dont enjoy reading 5 pages of people complaining about balance in their low level pub games when realistically they could just not suck and play better to win but thats never going to happen i concede
You can't concede. This is DotA 2.
I'll see myself out.
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On December 02 2013 16:07 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 14:42 FinestHour wrote:
i just dont enjoy reading 5 pages of people complaining about balance in their low level pub games when realistically they could just not suck and play better to win but thats never going to happen i concede this guy plays flavor of the month anyway true fax
when have i ever played fotm champs u dispute my honor
those are fighting words
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Speaking of earth spirit, what do you generally max first. When I started to play him, I liked to max roll. But now I have shifted more towards maxing boulder smash. Sometimes I go for a mix of those like 2 - 2- 1 - 1 at lvl 6. I noticed Jerax goes smash -> grib. Any opinions?
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So, how exactly do you carry a game with enchantress,i love playing her, but i have a hard time having her carry the game like i do with say a chen. Like with chen i almost always prioritize double stacking and getting a fast level 3 for a gank or a fast level 5 for a tier 1 push. But im not sure what to do as enchant to get an early advantage besides gank lanes hopelessly and do some harass with a harpy or a wildwing as i farm jungle.
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You throw Magic Spears at them and get kills?
Enchantress and Chen are imho not that comparable, the only real similarity is their ability to jungle and push early, but after Level 6 they become very diffrent heroes.
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On December 02 2013 17:00 majava wrote:
Speaking of earth spirit, what do you generally max first. When I started to play him, I liked to max roll. But now I have shifted more towards maxing boulder smash. Sometimes I go for a mix of those like 2 - 2- 1 - 1 at lvl 6. I noticed Jerax goes smash -> grib. Any opinions?
Smash. Only skill that scales in dmg.
Honestly, this hero doesn't really require that much decision making in early game. Generally only 2 combos required for early game. The basic one and the silencing while rolling in for heroes with escape mechanisms or stuns(situational, enemy can't turn before you can push). Mid to late game teamfights is where things get more interesting and complex.
ES is very similar to clockwerk in terms of his power curve, farm priority vs performance. Snowballs like crazy when farmed, demoted to just pure utility or feeder when doing badly. Zones out any melee mid all day. Excellent solo offlane hero that can rotate at level 3 to kill.
I prefer him playing pos. 3 utility role though. His skills aren't that useful offensively when bkbs start appearing. And he's not like puck who can easily target the backline.
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nm this post that was rly badly structured:D (ES is still earth shaker to me!)
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On December 02 2013 18:21 iokke wrote:
How odd is the fact that everyone is concerned about ES all of the sudden. B
Gg I win
All of a sudden ? Yeah, it's not like he has been implemented less than 1 month ago.
edit: Also people have been complaning of him being OP since he was made, but I guess that's "all of a sudden".
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On December 02 2013 17:11 r_con wrote:
So, how exactly do you carry a game with enchantress,i love playing her, but i have a hard time having her carry the game like i do with say a chen. Like with chen i almost always prioritize double stacking and getting a fast level 3 for a gank or a fast level 5 for a tier 1 push. But im not sure what to do as enchant to get an early advantage besides gank lanes hopelessly and do some harass with a harpy or a wildwing as i farm jungle.
Enchantress is even more ganky early than Chen. Where Chen can fall back into the jungle and farm using his retained creeps, efficient stacking, and the auras he's going to get from the mek he's most probably building, Enchantress is on the other side of the coin and is capable of ganking and pushing like a level 5 chen (two creeps!) from level one, but is taking experience out of her woods to do so.
I find the mindset is also different. For example, if I'm playing Enchantress and have had a few successful ganks or a tower push, I have no qualms with grabbing a midas and allowing myself to hunker down in the woods and prioritize my own farm and levels over making space / security in others' lanes. When I play Enchantress, I play with the mind that I'm a powerful hero by skillset until 25+ minutes, but my primary goal in those 25 minutes should be securing my Aghanims as quickly as I can (without stealing farm from higher priority heroes!) because Aghas is the item that allows the hero with low base strength and the lowest str gain in the game to at least take a nuke or two while attacking from the 790 range that the Aghas provides.
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ES is the most broken hero of 2013. Maybe the same OP tier as Centaur prenerf.
You cant avoid the towerkick so whenever an enemy support roames mid you are pretty much dead. He also gets every rune.
He also gets atleast two freekills when he reaches lvl 6 fast enough. Oh, and he doesnt need any items at all.
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And he is soooo annoying to Play against... Doesn't even matter if it's imba or not, it's just so damn annoying :p.
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On December 02 2013 14:42 FinestHour wrote:
i just dont enjoy reading 5 pages of people complaining about balance in their low level pub games when realistically they could just not suck and play better to win but thats never going to happen i concede
Of course nobody posting here is playing in games where it's impossible to win because of Earth Spirit. Anybody blaming losses simply on "omg op hero" is just a child. Some heroes can make the game harder to win, but it's still almost all on the team for how they play, and within that it's all on you individually to play as well as you can regardless of circumstances. Sure.
None of that changes the fact that some heroes are OP and, because of that, not fun to play with or against for many. I really don't understand why you want to stifle discussion of balance; it's part of the game and the best and most knowledgeable players in the world (including plenty much better and more knowledgeable than you, regardless how fantastic you may be) talk about it.
If you don't enjoy discussing the theoretical side of the game and instead choose to characterise anyone who does as a whiny bad child, what the fuck are you doing on a forum?
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On December 02 2013 20:14 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 14:42 FinestHour wrote:
i just dont enjoy reading 5 pages of people complaining about balance in their low level pub games when realistically they could just not suck and play better to win but thats never going to happen i concede Of course nobody posting here is playing in games where it's impossible to win because of Earth Spirit. Anybody blaming losses simply on "omg op hero" is just a child. Some heroes can make the game harder to win, but it's still almost all on the team for how they play, and within that it's all on you individually to play as well as you can regardless of circumstances. Sure. None of that changes the fact that some heroes are OP and, because of that, not fun to play with or against for many. I really don't understand why you want to stifle discussion of balance; it's part of the game and the best and most knowledgeable players in the world (including plenty much better and more knowledgeable than you, regardless how fantastic you may be) talk about it. If you don't enjoy discussing the theoretical side of the game and instead choose to characterise anyone who does as a whiny bad child, what the fuck are you doing on a forum?
I love my quote for this. Imbalance means little when genius is at hand..but that doesn't mean something isn't imbalanced.
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It's nice to preface balance talk with something like "In pub games...xx hero is so OP!", or "In the pro scene, x hero seems OP!".
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On December 02 2013 11:19 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 10:52 Kazzoo wrote:
How is it in WC3 ? Can he be targeted while rolling ? Yes. Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 10:52 Kazzoo wrote:
Same old... The hero just got impletmented into the game, maybe wait till you get used to playing against him before rushing to conclusions. Almost all Icefrog heroes are created way too strong and not way too weak and have to get nerfed. While there's definitely always some hype around new heroes and being unused to playing against them, with Icefrog he actually does make everything too strong at release (probably intentionally). Anyone who's been playing DotA 1 for a long time can give you a laundry list of heroes that were batshit broken when they came out. There's nothing wrong with it--it's how Icefrog designs the game, but we should be clear about it.
Well it makes sense. It's easier to balance a hero that's played in every single game. Plus if a new hero comes out and he's shitty, people just forget about him... I was playing at a very shitty level back then, but when Invoker first came out (so 6.50 I think), he was played for like three days and then he just disappeared for a long time (at least in trash level pubs).
But it annoys me that people instead of saying "what can I do against him ?" instantly call to nerf every single one of his ability and basically call his gimmicks ridiculous. Maybe I just never played against a competent Kaolin, but to me he really feels like he could be fine the way he is once people get used to him. Bat, AA, Phoenix, those were the batshit broken ones. Considering he's just been added to the game, he's not ridiculous to need a 6.79b.
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I thought dota is about how do you make the (borderline) balanced heroes/items/combos into broken/imba mode. Comp game is all about 'abusing' whatever strong line up/heroes effectively.
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On December 02 2013 11:19 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2013 10:52 Kazzoo wrote:
Same old... The hero just got impletmented into the game, maybe wait till you get used to playing against him before rushing to conclusions. Almost all Icefrog heroes are created way too strong and not way too weak and have to get nerfed. While there's definitely always some hype around new heroes and being unused to playing against them, with Icefrog he actually does make everything too strong at release (probably intentionally). Anyone who's been playing DotA 1 for a long time can give you a laundry list of heroes that were batshit broken when they came out. There's nothing wrong with it--it's how Icefrog designs the game, but we should be clear about it.
Well it makes sense. It's easier to balance a hero that's played in every single game. Plus if a new hero comes out and he's shitty, people just forget about him... I was playing at a very shitty level back then, but when Invoker first came out (so 6.50 I think), he was played for like three days and then he just disappeared for a long time (at least in trash level pubs).
But it annoys me that people instead of saying "what can I do against him ?" instantly call to nerf every single one of his ability and basically call his gimmicks ridiculous. Maybe I just never played against a competent Kaolin, but to me he really feels like he could be fine the way he is once people get used to him. Bat, AA, Phoenix, those were the batshit broken ones. Considering he's just been added to the game, he's not ridiculous to need a 6.79b.
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On December 02 2013 20:45 rob.au wrote:
It's nice to preface balance talk with something like "In pub games...xx hero is so OP!", or "In the pro scene, x hero seems OP!".
You can't really talk about "pub games" because they vary from two stacks of pros tryharding against each other to a bunch of guys in their first game trying to figure out how you buy items and "rushing" a 35 minute Veil of Discord without Boots.
When discussing balance, unless you specify otherwise, it's assumed (at least by me, maybe others are doing different things) that you're talking high level play, preferably pro if the data is available.
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On December 02 2013 09:02 NB wrote:
I remember when batrider first came out in the leaked beta map, he could BoT people while lassoing them, porting them back to fountain. Then the radiance stack with napalm abuse....
I remember when clock came out, the stats of the hero is so high you can dive tower at level 3 to kill people with battery assault and still get out half full HP.
non of the new heroes came out perfectly balanced.
You forgot when Elder Titan first came out he hit for like 500 damage with level 1 Elder Spirit.
Or when Spectre came out and Bristleback got remade. Lmao. Heroes were permanently banned from MYM pride trololololol
Anyone who says Earth Spirit isn't broken plays dumpster level games. If you're actually decent at the hero Earth Spirit pretty much rolls every game with his eyes closed. AoE stun, AoE slow, AoE silence, ult that lasts fucking forever and does damage, able to save teammates and re-position dangerous enemies, etc. all on a hero that basically requires 0 items outside of arcanes or a bottle. The hero is broken as fuck and has no place in CM right now.
Pretty much, Earth Spirit when played properly is about as broken as Arc Warden or Phoenix like Yango said. Faceroll hero that can just win teamfights at will.
Oh, and Dotabuff pubrates mean nothing, other than the fact that the hero is so easy pubs can faceroll with the hero. Invoker was sorta op prior to his 5 million nerfs, doesn't mean he wasn't slightly broken.
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EPT
