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harodihg
Japan1344 Posts
In bringing up NASCAR I was only trying to draw some level of comparison, and I think that it is still comparable of you'd read concurrent viewers. I'm not trying to push one side or the other, I was merely stating my opinion going into this and was looking for more information/opinions on the subject. That being said, would you care to expand upon how non-centralizing DotA tournaments is better than centralizing them when there's still scummy organizations like Netolic able to operate? | ||
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nojok
France15846 Posts
On November 27 2013 16:03 Esoterikk wrote: Dota is most definitely a casual game, unless you are at the very top anyway. There is no ranking, no ladder, and you have four other people doing parts of the work. I mean it depends on your definition of casual though, is it as casual as hearthstone? Not even close, is it as hardcore as Sc2? No. The top end is pretty rough though since it's more of a social experiment than a skill competition as far as breaking into the scene. It's very close to CS imo, CS did not have ranking or ladder for individuals, there was 5o5 pick up tournaments, whatever ladder with team and very tough competition at the top | ||
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
On November 27 2013 16:03 Esoterikk wrote: Well I think your definitions are kind of ridiculous. A game is the same game with a ladder or not. If a game is competitive only through systems outside of the game then facebook games are the most hardcore on the planet.Dota is most definitely a casual game, unless you are at the very top anyway. There is no ranking, no ladder, and you have four other people doing parts of the work. I mean it depends on your definition of casual though, is it as casual as hearthstone? Not even close, is it as hardcore as Sc2? No. The top end is pretty rough though since it's more of a social experiment than a skill competition as far as breaking into the scene. Trying to talk about games being more casual or more hardcore than another is quite frankly ridiculous. The point originally made was the Dota was considered a very casual game. There's a definition to the word 'casually', and that is how Dota was played originally. It is not that anymore for most people. Ultimately people play the same game very differently. Even if there was a scale from 'casual' to 'hardcore' then the players in every game would fall on different points of that scale. During Dota's lifespan the playerbase has moved further to the right. Overall judging the game based on mechanics or systems though, is utterly pointless. A game is as serious as people make it unless there are so few variables that you can't take it any further. Systems inside the game might encourage users to take it further to the right but that doesn't change the game itself. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On November 27 2013 16:03 Esoterikk wrote: Dota is most definitely a casual game, unless you are at the very top anyway. There is no ranking, no ladder, and you have four other people doing parts of the work. I mean it depends on your definition of casual though, is it as casual as hearthstone? Not even close, is it as hardcore as Sc2? No. The top end is pretty rough though since it's more of a social experiment than a skill competition as far as breaking into the scene. I think there's an important distinction between infrastructure and gameplay. Compared to most games, Dota 2 is pretty hardcore regarding gameplay, though definitely not an extreme (hardcorest?! hardestcore?!). On the other side, the infrastructure surrounding the gameplay is more casual than most popular competitive titles, and I think Valve have shown they're actively pursuing this. | ||
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
On November 27 2013 16:18 FuzzyJAM wrote: I think it's arguable that things like ladders or rankings are 'hardcore'. I think there's an important distinction between infrastructure and gameplay. Compared to most games, Dota 2 is pretty hardcore regarding gameplay, though definitely not an extreme (hardcorest?! hardestcore?!). On the other side, the infrastructure surrounding the gameplay is more casual than most popular competitive titles, and I think Valve have shown they're actively pursuing this. Signing up for an amateur tournament is 'hardcore', playing ladder in mold league isn't. If that's the sort of thing you would use to describe it. It's a silly term with little meaning. | ||
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Esoterikk
Canada1256 Posts
On November 27 2013 16:21 teapoted wrote: I think it's arguable that things like ladders or rankings are 'hardcore'. Signing up for an amateur tournament is 'hardcore', playing ladder in mold league isn't. The ability for an average player to transition into a more hardcore setting I would say is a big thing that Dota lacks. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On November 27 2013 16:21 teapoted wrote: I think it's arguable that things like ladders or rankings are 'hardcore'. Signing up for an amateur tournament is 'hardcore', playing ladder in mold league isn't. If that's the sort of thing you would use to describe it. It's a silly term with little meaning. Oh, IDK, just because you're bad doesn't mean you're casual. If you play the game hoping to improve, I think that's one aspect of being "hardcore". If games choose to give you a ranking, it facilitates that. People can completely ignore it and continue to be as casual as they like, of course, but the system is inherently a "hardcore" one. Of course you're right that things external to the game can be far more hardcore. Someone actively choosing to get into games to rank themselves, as with third party ladders, is way more "hardcore" than the average person who simply has access to a similar system passively because it's part of the game. Edit: I do think you're right that "casual" and "hardcore" are kind of stupid terms, though. They're incredibly broad and somewhat fuzzy with about 83 ever-so-slightly different meanings. If someone wants to come up with a better lexicon for games I'd happily embrace it. | ||
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
Yes, Dota lacks a lot of features to introduce players to playing competitively. This is why the community creates things like in-house leagues. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On November 27 2013 16:30 teapoted wrote: Well lets dump the 'hardcore' term and start saying a word which actually means something. Yes, Dota lacks a lot of features to introduce players to playing competitively. This is why the community creates things like in-house leagues. But in regards to 'hardcore' it's just sort of a bs term. I play to grind on ladder? That sounds about as hardcore as Maple Story. If you're playing because you want to have a better rating - i.e. have evidence that you're a better player than others - I'd say that's very definitely "hardcore". | ||
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teapoted
United Kingdom24425 Posts
Keep it hardcore. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On November 27 2013 16:41 teapoted wrote: Anyway, this conversation isn't really going anywhere. I was just waiting for the sun to go up so I can go to the shop and get some breakfast/very late dinner. Keep it hardcore. Dinner at 7AM is pretty hardcore. I have a fucking horrible 3 hour lecture on GM crops to go to myself.  | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
and i dont 'safely remove' my flash drives. | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
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trinxified
Canada7774 Posts
Wow... that means you have to bind keys to move your screen around? Damn | ||
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Esoterikk
Canada1256 Posts
On November 27 2013 16:59 trinxified wrote: I just realized that some people play with edge pan OFF? Wow... that means you have to bind keys to move your screen around? Damn I could see playing by centering the camera on your hero with hotkeys, it would be terrible though, like I can't even imagine. I know lots of LoL casuals play with camera locked. | ||
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GtC
United States546 Posts
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BlitzerSC
Italy8800 Posts
On November 27 2013 17:10 GtC wrote: Has anyone ever tried 3-4 man ganking mid when he/she is creep blocking the 1st wave? It seems like it should work with aggressive enough supports, especially considering that no mid will ever expect it. This would probably be most feasible on the radiant side due to the ramp directly next to the lane. You mean like this ? :D:D. | ||
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Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
On November 27 2013 17:10 GtC wrote: Has anyone ever tried 3-4 man ganking mid when he/she is creep blocking the 1st wave? It seems like it should work with aggressive enough supports, especially considering that no mid will ever expect it. This would probably be most feasible on the radiant side due to the ramp directly next to the lane. have you like never played hon or something that shit happened every 5 games | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 27 2013 01:04 Qbek wrote: Seamless? More like between guinsoo dota and around 6.30ish there were so many big changes that the game went from casual imbalanced fun to actual competitive game Late to the party, but this is an important point to emphasize. People juxtaposing the "casual-ness" of DotA as an alternative to laddering WC3 vs. the current "hardcore" attitude toward the game are disregarding the evolution of the game thanks to Icefrog. DotA pre-Icefrog WAS casual because that was how the game was designed. But part of what Icefrog did to DotA--what made him exceptional as a developer for DotA--was bring in a competitive vision of the game. He was the first to see DotA as a game with competitive potential and he actively developed DotA around this vision. Thus, while DotA in the hands of every other developer was a casual game, it grew into a competitive game under Icefrog's guidance because that's the direction he wanted to take the game. | ||
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