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On September 21 2013 00:51 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 00:50 teapoted wrote:
Well I don't think Humble Bundle really brings in any 'new' people regardless. Pretty sure you can download most / all games in humble bundles free from steam.
That is how the majority of people do it. All the ones I have done have bought gave me Steam keys, with the exception of the one from EA, which had both.
On September 21 2013 00:51 Yoshi- wrote:
Pretty sure that the origin humble bundle brought tons of people to origin
I think it was one of the most successful out there, if I remember correctly.
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Humble Bundles do make the companies some good profit, since people pay far more than the minimum on average. It's not just a marketing move.
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I've been waiting patiently. This'll be exciting.
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On September 21 2013 00:55 Acritter wrote:I've been waiting patiently. This'll be exciting.
Fuck, my data charges can take this, yet I want to watch.
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United Kingdom24425 Posts
On September 21 2013 00:51 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 00:50 teapoted wrote:
Well I don't think Humble Bundle really brings in any 'new' people regardless. Pretty sure you can download most / all games in humble bundles free from steam. Yes but I'm saying the people who know what the Humble Bundle is are probably already on steam.On September 21 2013 00:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 00:46 teapoted wrote:
I don't need evidence in the form of Valve saying it.
I need evidence in the form of games which have business models which don't make sense or aren't profitable for the sole purpose of bringing users to steam. Logic is to me more important than what games journalists say. You can't shift the burden of proof on to me just because you think your argument is more logical. Both of our arguments make equal sense and you can't just say "You don't have proof and I don't need it". Dota 2 might be profitable at this point or maybe it has a long tail, but it has taken a long time to get there and we don't know how much they spent. But the fact still remains, Valve can't make any money on it until you put your credit card into Steam. And if they are looking to make money, they want you to put your credit card into Steam. And then, you might buy other games through Steam. Its a really good plan for long term growth and making great multiplayer games. Well actually yes I can, you're the one making claims that there's something fishy with their business model. The burden of proof is entirely on you.
I'm only saying I think they make games like any other company does and is concerned with their individual games being profitable.
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On September 21 2013 00:56 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 00:51 Comeh wrote:On September 21 2013 00:50 teapoted wrote:
Well I don't think Humble Bundle really brings in any 'new' people regardless. Pretty sure you can download most / all games in humble bundles free from steam. Yes but I'm saying the people who know what the Humble Bundle is are probably already on steam
Yeah this is probably true.
I'd imagine one of valve's major marketing strategies is to try to find how to get people on steam. They'd be stupid not to.
Is that what we are arguing about?
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No, I'm arguing against this notion "Valve is the exception, but all their plans are focused around getting people to install Steam on the PC."
Of course Valve wants to get more users on steam. But when it comes to their game development they pick business models which make sense for that game.
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On September 21 2013 00:58 teapoted wrote:
No, I'm arguing against this notion "Valve is the exception, but all their plans are focused around getting people to install Steam on the PC."
The exception to what?
I mean, considering all of their revenues start and end with steam, it would be pretty retarded if their plans didn't revolve around that one way or another.
This argument seems stupid.
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On September 21 2013 00:56 teapoted wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 00:51 Comeh wrote:On September 21 2013 00:50 teapoted wrote:
Well I don't think Humble Bundle really brings in any 'new' people regardless. Pretty sure you can download most / all games in humble bundles free from steam. Yes but I'm saying the people who know what the Humble Bundle is are probably already on steam. Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 00:51 Plansix wrote:On September 21 2013 00:46 teapoted wrote:
I don't need evidence in the form of Valve saying it.
I need evidence in the form of games which have business models which don't make sense or aren't profitable for the sole purpose of bringing users to steam. Logic is to me more important than what games journalists say. You can't shift the burden of proof on to me just because you think your argument is more logical. Both of our arguments make equal sense and you can't just say "You don't have proof and I don't need it". Dota 2 might be profitable at this point or maybe it has a long tail, but it has taken a long time to get there and we don't know how much they spent. But the fact still remains, Valve can't make any money on it until you put your credit card into Steam. And if they are looking to make money, they want you to put your credit card into Steam. And then, you might buy other games through Steam. Its a really good plan for long term growth and making great multiplayer games. Well actually yes I can, you're the one making claims that there's something fishy with their business model. The burden of proof is entirely on you. I'm only saying I think they make games like any other company does and is concerned with their individual games being profitable.
Just becuase you think it sounds fishy or weird, or you simply don't agree doesn't require me to prove it. Your argument is some vague idea that "they just do what everyone else does". But Valve doesn't do what every other company does. Have you ever heard of a game being in closed beta for nearly 3 years? Because no one else does that, because they don't have a store directly attached to all their games.
I don't think they are out there to make a bad game or make games at a loss. But they can take 3 years building Dota 2 and running huge events in The International because they have Steam in the background. And every time people sign on or installs Steam, it helps them justify taking 3 years to build a game.
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Well Dota is a product on steam.
It's like office is a product on Windows. (granted there is office for Mac) But the purpose of office isn't to sell windows, if it was, then office would be considerably cheaper. Office is a highly profitable product.Just becuase you think it sounds fishy or weird, or you simply don't agree doesn't require me to prove it. Your argument is some vague idea that "they just do what everyone else does". But Valve doesn't do what every other company does. Have you ever heard of a game being in closed beta for nearly 3 years? Because no one else does that, because they don't have a store directly attached to all their games. Well they can call it a beta all they want it was still a product with the same running business model as it had when it was released. The beta tag means nothing except a sign-up form.
And I said they do what everyone else does in terms of business strategy as a game company. You make a game, you want the game to be profitable. Not, you make a game to get people on your other service and we don't really give a shit about how the game does.
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On September 21 2013 00:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2013 00:55 Acritter wrote:I've been waiting patiently. This'll be exciting. Fuck, my data charges can take this, yet I want to watch.
Well, I know I'll be hanging out in the Tournaments forum thread.
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On September 21 2013 01:02 teapoted wrote:
Well Dota is a product on steam.
It's like office is a product on Windows. (granted there is office for Mac) But the purpose of office isn't to sell windows, if it was, then office would be considerably cheaper. Office is a highly profitable product.
Kind of a bad example, in that Office can be ran on Windows major competitor. Dota cannot be ran on anything but steam (well, WC3, but whatever).
I think Valve has a very nice benefit of running f2p games on Steam, in that in order to play that F2P game, you have to sign up for the free service of Steam. Free exposure to Steam (essentially semi free advertising) is done that will help expose the player to many games they wouldn't consider to purchase because they normally might not be in the market for higher priced games.
Hell, a good argument could be made for the Summer Sale being targeted to players of F2P games.
There's a lot to talk about here for just a forum post - papers could be written about this. But the long story short is it goes both ways - Steam exposes players to Dota which has a nice model built on it, and F2P games attract players into Steam. Both make money. Reality tends to be a grey area most of the time.
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I think you're actually both right, which is the funny Part
Valve loves to find these 'win win' scenarios, especially when Valve wins multiple times
1. DotA needs to be free if you modernize it, otherwise it will be pirated like mad, or shunned
2. a f2p game needs a way to make money, but it can't be p2w, so sell cosmetics ingame.
3. Create an ecosystem around the game for tournaments and items to keep being made. This creates an ecosystem that lets the community around the game create their -own- profit, which all ends up profiting for the game as well
4. Because the game is f2p it makes people install Steam, and more games can be sold via Steam
5. As well as games being sold, create a further ecosystem of the community market for people to sell stuff there.
There's probably even more ways of Revenue that Valve is drawing from dota2, its about finding as many wins as they can for themselves and for their consumer. Because in that way they build Loyalty, more long term profits.
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Yes, but my point is that notion proves intention. In my mind unless these games have bad business models to get people on steam then Valve has the same strategy as any other developer when it comes to their games. Does Dota 2 bring people to steam, yes. Does Valve make f2p games to bring people to steam, I have no reason to believe.
Anyway, this has been talked to death.
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The argument that Valve doesn't have to make money with dota 2 is still one of the dumbest arguments I heard. Getting a few new users on steam doesn't outweigh the production cost and server cost.
I
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I don't think Valve makes f2p games JUST to bring people to Steam
I think they see it as a fantastic side effect of making f2p games
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Valve has been quite open about seeing the community at large as the best source of content in the next generation of gaming.
As such, they see value in creating tools that allow the community to create that content/value. In addition, they have said that to them, games will become a sort of interconnected economy where value that you generate in one game can transfer to another when you do.
Its not hard to see how both steam and dota tie into those ideas. I'd say its very very simplistic to argue that Dota is solely to get people on steam, but its equally simplistic to argue that Dota has any need for profitability when it is concepted as a part of a far greater ecosystem of content creation and value exchange.
This is part of what makes me confident that a custom map maker will eventually come out for Dota 2 (or maybe just something more generic like an RTS builder based on source).
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On September 21 2013 01:17 Shaella wrote:
I don't think Valve makes f2p games JUST to bring people to Steam
I think they see it as a fantastic side effect of making f2p games
Think of it more like this:
Valve wants to make modern Dota 2.
Valve makes dota 2 F2P and creates a way for people to make money of the work shop and tournament scene.
Valve creates TI to get people to jump into Dota and get people watch it.
Valve justifies the initial investment and time spent by the fact that more people are installing steam and buying games off steam.
Steam is the thing that lets them make the games they want to make. Its the same things as law firms all doing real estate, even if they specialize in litigation. It what they do to pay the bills monthly, so they can do the other work.
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anyone else getting huge "finding server" wait times?
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EPT
