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On August 21 2013 19:43 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 12:52 Mataza wrote:On August 21 2013 10:27 TheYango wrote:On August 21 2013 09:16 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On August 21 2013 09:08 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On August 21 2013 09:00 Kuroeeah wrote:
You can't really judge (on most instances) how good or bad a player is from a single game. You can make some general judgements pretty easily. For example in starcraft you could say that if after one game a player had >150 apm, mined x ammount of minerals per minute and never built up a bank of 500 for over 30 seconds he is probably at least decent. I am sure you could find similar metrics in dota to get a rough determination of player skill that works even if he trolls and/or his team lose horribly. Most of the statistics would just be clouded by variables that aren't even under the players control. If a player gets 800 GPM does that make him a good player? What if he was playing anti-mage and his team won the game 4 vs 5 while he just farmed all game? It certainly doesn't make him a bad player, but farming while you're under no pressure isn't impressive. At the same time you could have a player who gets five man gank trained the entire game while his spectre free farms. Does that make the player that got gank trained terrible since he died a lot and his team still wins the game because of spectre? Is the spectre good or bad because the other team ganked the wrong person? Too many variables are out of your control to have any sort of metric if a player is good. Your KDA and GPM don't provide any meaningful data alone. I don't think most of these things would be basic visible statistics. However, there are a lot of things not visible to you in any form that Valve could data mine from replays that in many cases are highly indicative of a good player. The best example that comes to me immediately is how often someone clicks on his opponents to view their items. This is such a bad example. You really only have to check items some few times. You check for boots if you plan an early gank. You check for dust/sentries/gem when you rely on invis. You check for bkb on heroes you want to focus in an upcoming teamfight. You check for dagger/shadowbladeforcestaff on heroes that can stun. For example I would never check a jakiros items if I don't have any invis heroes in my team. You can often tell most of what you need to know from the minimap and from just watching the enemy heroes attack/move. There are ways to tell if a player is good, but I know of no such way that can be expressed as a number. Erm that's not true at all. Checking a jakiros items are often very useful. You see if he has a tp which is important when prepping a dive. Can check if he has obs wards on him(Either unused or 1 stack) then if you keep checking you can get hints at where he has warded so you can either avoid the ward or remove it. I would never intentionally not check a heroes items. You should be checking their whole team constantly. Actually think checking for tps is one of the most important things you can do. Allows you to punish a mistake pretty easily that you wouldn't otherwise punish if you didn't check.
Sigh.
Then let's get more specific.
Situation pub. You won your lane, it's 5 to 10 minutes into the game, your team has no wards. You already know the guys from your lane have next to nothing for the next 5 minutes.
The enemy mid is a storm spirit, so you check his level with the scoreboard. You use smoke of deceit and move mid to gank. No item that he can have this early in the game can make it harder to gank him.
Just by knowing what someone can have and cannot have at some points in the game reduces the number of times you need to check for items.
I could check everyone's items every 3 minutes, but I don't. I check some enemy's items whenever I see them, some others I check once and then never again. I check less because I got better and know what I have to check for.
It is similar to terran scouting in sc2. You could spend all your Orbital energy to scout your enemies base. Or you could check only at some selected timings at which actually stuff happens that matters.
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Katowice25012 Posts
That's a terrible analogy because an orbital has an actual cost whereas clicking someone to see their items has virtually none, except for the click and having to move your eyes to their inventory I guess.
It's funny because all you're doing is proving the original point Yango made but don't seem to realize it.
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Ya, check everyone's item everytime you can, it helps you to gauge their farm/wards/item direction
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Wait, are we arguing that it's better to not look at it or something? Like, I could see why you'd think it's something slightly superfluous to constantly check it, but if you've got the spare time and APM to do it, why not do it every time you can? Checking the enemies item progression on all their heroes is pretty useful. If you can guess someone's going Butterfly before they finish it, you can get a head start on your MKB. If you can see they do/don't have a mek, you can plan your team fights around it. If you check their supports whenever possible, you can see if they've used wards and estimate where they've put them.
I mean, both your examples are inherently flawed. There are a lot of items a Storm could have 5-10 minutes into the game, the biggest one being a bottled rune of some sort. More than that, at that point he should have his ulti, so you'd want to check his mana to see how far he can jump (hell, you'd want to check it anyway to see if he has mana to combo and kill you), so you'd be clicking on him anyway.
Orbital's use energy, which is a quantifiable, limited resource. The only thing clicking on them takes is half a second and some APM, which isn't comparable at all.
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Checking for wards is awesome. Support has 2 wards, he in lane, he has 1 ward when he gets to middle. Guess where the ward is?
When you're running back and forth from well, tping, dead, running through the river, waiting to pull, I don't know what else you would do with your time. If you're last hitting non-stop or doing some crazy multi-unit micro, then it's probably harder.
Checking carry items is not that useful if you don't know their item timings and when to expect them to get certain items.
And when you start the game, you check your allies items to see if they're incompetent, like dark seers without stout shields, qb no stout carries against expected dual lanes, mids who go bottle first no items, supports who don't have sentries/save gold for sentries to deward.
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My point is that there is a peak. It is sensible to check inventories x times over the course of a game. Every time more than x that you check inventories is superfluous. Wouldn't you agree that checking inventories of all other players every 10 seconds would be a bit overkill?
I'm not saying you shouldn't ever do it or something ridiculous. Obviously you have all the time in the world to check inventories when you're currently sitting in the fountain or brain afk hitting neutral creeps.
But on say mid lane with an aggressive enemy player you can easily screw over yourself by checking what kind of items the safelane support and carry have. Because at times you have better things to do, like killing people or evading spells.
It's just a metric that hits a plateau at which it isn't useful to check even more often.
And how often is sensible changes from game to game, too. In some games several minutes long teamfights happen while in others both teams farm for 15 minutes with no rotation.
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On August 21 2013 21:37 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 19:43 Numy wrote:On August 21 2013 12:52 Mataza wrote:On August 21 2013 10:27 TheYango wrote:On August 21 2013 09:16 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On August 21 2013 09:08 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On August 21 2013 09:00 Kuroeeah wrote:
You can't really judge (on most instances) how good or bad a player is from a single game. You can make some general judgements pretty easily. For example in starcraft you could say that if after one game a player had >150 apm, mined x ammount of minerals per minute and never built up a bank of 500 for over 30 seconds he is probably at least decent. I am sure you could find similar metrics in dota to get a rough determination of player skill that works even if he trolls and/or his team lose horribly. Most of the statistics would just be clouded by variables that aren't even under the players control. If a player gets 800 GPM does that make him a good player? What if he was playing anti-mage and his team won the game 4 vs 5 while he just farmed all game? It certainly doesn't make him a bad player, but farming while you're under no pressure isn't impressive. At the same time you could have a player who gets five man gank trained the entire game while his spectre free farms. Does that make the player that got gank trained terrible since he died a lot and his team still wins the game because of spectre? Is the spectre good or bad because the other team ganked the wrong person? Too many variables are out of your control to have any sort of metric if a player is good. Your KDA and GPM don't provide any meaningful data alone. I don't think most of these things would be basic visible statistics. However, there are a lot of things not visible to you in any form that Valve could data mine from replays that in many cases are highly indicative of a good player. The best example that comes to me immediately is how often someone clicks on his opponents to view their items. This is such a bad example. You really only have to check items some few times. You check for boots if you plan an early gank. You check for dust/sentries/gem when you rely on invis. You check for bkb on heroes you want to focus in an upcoming teamfight. You check for dagger/shadowbladeforcestaff on heroes that can stun. For example I would never check a jakiros items if I don't have any invis heroes in my team. You can often tell most of what you need to know from the minimap and from just watching the enemy heroes attack/move. There are ways to tell if a player is good, but I know of no such way that can be expressed as a number. Erm that's not true at all. Checking a jakiros items are often very useful. You see if he has a tp which is important when prepping a dive. Can check if he has obs wards on him(Either unused or 1 stack) then if you keep checking you can get hints at where he has warded so you can either avoid the ward or remove it. I would never intentionally not check a heroes items. You should be checking their whole team constantly. Actually think checking for tps is one of the most important things you can do. Allows you to punish a mistake pretty easily that you wouldn't otherwise punish if you didn't check. Sigh. Then let's get more specific. Situation pub. You won your lane, it's 5 to 10 minutes into the game, your team has no wards. You already know the guys from your lane have next to nothing for the next 5 minutes. The enemy mid is a storm spirit, so you check his level with the scoreboard. You use smoke of deceit and move mid to gank. No item that he can have this early in the game can make it harder to gank him. Just by knowing what someone can have and cannot have at some points in the game reduces the number of times you need to check for items. I could check everyone's items every 3 minutes, but I don't. I check some enemy's items whenever I see them, some others I check once and then never again. I check less because I got better and know what I have to check for. It is similar to terran scouting in sc2. You could spend all your Orbital energy to scout your enemies base. Or you could check only at some selected timings at which actually stuff happens that matters.
So you don't check his available mana pool, what rune he might have or how many bottle charges are remaining? Maybe he made treads by then or might have a magic stick with a couple of charges accumulated, all that counts to your estimation of how much your gang train needs to do in order to secure the kill.
I've never regretted clicking on every single enemy hero that appears on my minimap whenever they go out to the lane to farm or they walked past river wards. You just get too much information on based on remaining mana pools alone, or ward counts that aren't even numbered that makes clicking on them worth it. I've made several successful ganks on the enemy carry before based off the knowledge that key members of the opposite team don't have tp scrolls. Like what Burningsera said, Yaphets is one sick player that makes way too many clutch decisions based on checking out inventories constantly.
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On August 21 2013 23:15 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2013 21:37 Mataza wrote:On August 21 2013 19:43 Numy wrote:On August 21 2013 12:52 Mataza wrote:On August 21 2013 10:27 TheYango wrote:On August 21 2013 09:16 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On August 21 2013 09:08 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On August 21 2013 09:00 Kuroeeah wrote:
You can't really judge (on most instances) how good or bad a player is from a single game. You can make some general judgements pretty easily. For example in starcraft you could say that if after one game a player had >150 apm, mined x ammount of minerals per minute and never built up a bank of 500 for over 30 seconds he is probably at least decent. I am sure you could find similar metrics in dota to get a rough determination of player skill that works even if he trolls and/or his team lose horribly. Most of the statistics would just be clouded by variables that aren't even under the players control. If a player gets 800 GPM does that make him a good player? What if he was playing anti-mage and his team won the game 4 vs 5 while he just farmed all game? It certainly doesn't make him a bad player, but farming while you're under no pressure isn't impressive. At the same time you could have a player who gets five man gank trained the entire game while his spectre free farms. Does that make the player that got gank trained terrible since he died a lot and his team still wins the game because of spectre? Is the spectre good or bad because the other team ganked the wrong person? Too many variables are out of your control to have any sort of metric if a player is good. Your KDA and GPM don't provide any meaningful data alone. I don't think most of these things would be basic visible statistics. However, there are a lot of things not visible to you in any form that Valve could data mine from replays that in many cases are highly indicative of a good player. The best example that comes to me immediately is how often someone clicks on his opponents to view their items. This is such a bad example. You really only have to check items some few times. You check for boots if you plan an early gank. You check for dust/sentries/gem when you rely on invis. You check for bkb on heroes you want to focus in an upcoming teamfight. You check for dagger/shadowbladeforcestaff on heroes that can stun. For example I would never check a jakiros items if I don't have any invis heroes in my team. You can often tell most of what you need to know from the minimap and from just watching the enemy heroes attack/move. There are ways to tell if a player is good, but I know of no such way that can be expressed as a number. Erm that's not true at all. Checking a jakiros items are often very useful. You see if he has a tp which is important when prepping a dive. Can check if he has obs wards on him(Either unused or 1 stack) then if you keep checking you can get hints at where he has warded so you can either avoid the ward or remove it. I would never intentionally not check a heroes items. You should be checking their whole team constantly. Actually think checking for tps is one of the most important things you can do. Allows you to punish a mistake pretty easily that you wouldn't otherwise punish if you didn't check. Sigh. Then let's get more specific. Situation pub. You won your lane, it's 5 to 10 minutes into the game, your team has no wards. You already know the guys from your lane have next to nothing for the next 5 minutes. The enemy mid is a storm spirit, so you check his level with the scoreboard. You use smoke of deceit and move mid to gank. No item that he can have this early in the game can make it harder to gank him. Just by knowing what someone can have and cannot have at some points in the game reduces the number of times you need to check for items. I could check everyone's items every 3 minutes, but I don't. I check some enemy's items whenever I see them, some others I check once and then never again. I check less because I got better and know what I have to check for. It is similar to terran scouting in sc2. You could spend all your Orbital energy to scout your enemies base. Or you could check only at some selected timings at which actually stuff happens that matters. So you don't check his available mana pool, what rune he might have or how many bottle charges are remaining? Maybe he made treads by then or might have a magic stick with a couple of charges accumulated, all that counts to your estimation of how much your gang train needs to do in order to secure the kill. I've never regretted clicking on every single enemy hero that appears on my minimap whenever they go out to the lane to farm or they walked past river wards. You just get too much information on based on remaining mana pools alone, or ward counts that aren't even numbered that makes clicking on them worth it. I've made several successful ganks on the enemy carry before based off the knowledge that key members of the opposite team don't have tp scrolls. Like what Burningsera said, Yaphets is one sick player that makes way too many clutch decisions based on checking out inventories constantly.
The big difference is whether or not storm is level 6. If he is 6, you have to stun/silence him til he is dead or the gank will fail. No items he has makes a difference in that because he will get away if he can cast his ultimate.
Before the 10 minute mark no one in the game is gonna have an orchid or sheepstick, so again pointless.
And yes, it is possible for a storm spirit to not be lvl 6 between 5-10 minutes. If I remember correctly the bench mark for lvl 6 is roughly 6 minutes, or not so roughly 5-8 depending on denies and number of people on the lane.
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Is there a channel where you can trade chests for an item? If so can someone give me the name of it ^_^
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Chests for items ? Usually I don't trade much, in fact I almost never trade with people I don't know, but I can tell you for sure that you won't get much profit by trading chests.
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On August 22 2013 00:06 Dattish wrote:
Dota 2 at MLG Columbus.
MLG has confirmed that Dota 2 will indeed be at MLG Columbus, and $15,000 up for grabs at the Fall Invitational at Full Sail University.
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On August 22 2013 00:06 BlitzerSC wrote:
Chests for items ? Usually I don't trade much, in fact I almost never trade with people I don't know, but I can tell you for sure that you won't get much profit by trading chests.
I mean;
I give 3 chests for an item and then he gets the chests and I get the item :3
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Old new. We knew about that last week. And the other event looks intresting. Hopefully it gets good viewers.
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What is the real difference between queuing for games with solo clicked or not? I haven't really noticed much skill difference or wait time; so what is the real point of it?
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On August 21 2013 22:20 Andr3 wrote:http://bbs.vpgame.cn/rank.phpIs 2009 back to dota? holy shit ~~~ hope its him 820 make comeback make dream team china #1 again plz
Doubt 09 is coming back, he has too much gold irl to care about competitive dota now :'(
but 820 said he would come back if he found the right people to play with.
I can see yaphets is tempted to go competitive again but i think he is doing pretty well too on his taobao business, so i dunno.
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On August 22 2013 00:09 Elairec wrote:
What is the real difference between queuing for games with solo clicked or not? I haven't really noticed much skill difference or wait time; so what is the real point of it?
no stacks. stacks are annoying as hell to deal with when you are solo.
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Fair enough. I don't really get too much trouble when ending up on a team with stacks other than maybe them sucking on each others nuts when they make normal plays.
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EPT
