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On August 06 2013 00:55 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 00:47 TheYango wrote:On August 06 2013 00:37 BlitzerSC wrote:
Just replicate AM and fight 2vs1 ? He'll never kill you if you are playing in a smart way.
He doesn't need to kill you. The thing is, if the game is 4v4 with AM and Morph both farming, AM is going to outfarm the Morph because Morph's overall jungle farming efficiency is much lower than AM. Morph has to use his stronger earlier impact to seal the game because at 3 major items (BF+Manta+1), AM takes over the game. To properly do this without letting AM steamroll towers, you need to take advantage of the global aspect of Replicate, meaning if AM forces you to commit resources to fighting him (in particular, forcing you to use your replicate CD on fighting him), then it's a net win for him, even if he cannot immediately out-fight you. So when is Morphling a good pick(lets assume it is last pick)? In a line up with no Antimage or Alch? How does he fair against Joy-stealer in the land of speed farming? Naix really isn't a "speedfarmer" at all, so it's not really a good comparison. Naix works because he just needs an armlet to start killing stuff.
Naix hits some really key timings against Morphling, and can manfight him relatively okay once waveform is used during a fight (keep in mind morph's really low range).
The issue becomes more of a "how strong is your split push" when talking about morph vs Naix.
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United States47024 Posts
Morph is actually much better against Alch than he is against AM. Alch farms faster than Morph, but is a weaker split-push hero (while simultaneously his ganking ability is of very limited usefulness against Morphling). On top of that, even though Alch farms faster, 6 item Alch arguably is less scary than 6 item Morphling because of how poor his level 25 base stats are.
Also, Replicate in general is quite nice against AC-carrying Strength carries due to how getting a Replicate of him basically nullifies the AC auras (+5/-5 armor auras cancel each other out).
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On August 06 2013 00:55 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 00:47 TheYango wrote:On August 06 2013 00:37 BlitzerSC wrote:
Just replicate AM and fight 2vs1 ? He'll never kill you if you are playing in a smart way.
He doesn't need to kill you. The thing is, if the game is 4v4 with AM and Morph both farming, AM is going to outfarm the Morph because Morph's overall jungle farming efficiency is much lower than AM. Morph has to use his stronger earlier impact to seal the game because at 3 major items (BF+Manta+1), AM takes over the game. To properly do this without letting AM steamroll towers, you need to take advantage of the global aspect of Replicate, meaning if AM forces you to commit resources to fighting him (in particular, forcing you to use your replicate CD on fighting him), then it's a net win for him, even if he cannot immediately out-fight you. So when is Morphling a good pick(lets assume it is last pick)? In a line up with no Antimage or Alch? How does he fair against Joy-stealer in the land of speed farming? Naix really isn't a "speedfarmer" at all, so it's not really a good comparison. Naix works because he just needs an armlet to start killing stuff.
Yeah, I know, he came into fashion with LD and the "tower punchers" line ups that just got armlet and slamed down the lanes with stupid abouts of HP.
But that is not the question at hand. When is he a good pick in a line up? What late game farmers can he keep up with and how does he fair against some stong mid game carries like Lifestealer?
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On August 06 2013 00:57 TheYango wrote:
Morph is actually much better against Alch than he is against AM. Alch farms faster than Morph, but is a weaker split-push hero (while simultaneously his ganking ability is of very limited usefulness against Morphling). On top of that, even though Alch farms faster, 6 item Alch arguably is less scary than 6 item Morphling because of how poor his level 25 base stats are.
Also, Replicate in general is quite nice against AC-carrying Strength carries due to how getting a Replicate of him basically nullifies the AC auras (+5/-5 armor auras cancel each other out).
This is true, though you can still say the same thing about using your replicate to fight rather than for coming in to fight while splitpushing / farming.
The nice thing about morph vs alch, is that because Morph gets a Linkens, he is able to avoid getting solo killed by Alch Shadowblade combo (who can typically 1v1 most carry heroes because of this).
There are a couple scary timings in the Alchemist vs Morph matchup, but its a lot more comfortable than vs AM (though, abyssal is always scary for any hero).
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On August 06 2013 00:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:55 SKC wrote:On August 06 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 00:47 TheYango wrote:On August 06 2013 00:37 BlitzerSC wrote:
Just replicate AM and fight 2vs1 ? He'll never kill you if you are playing in a smart way.
He doesn't need to kill you. The thing is, if the game is 4v4 with AM and Morph both farming, AM is going to outfarm the Morph because Morph's overall jungle farming efficiency is much lower than AM. Morph has to use his stronger earlier impact to seal the game because at 3 major items (BF+Manta+1), AM takes over the game. To properly do this without letting AM steamroll towers, you need to take advantage of the global aspect of Replicate, meaning if AM forces you to commit resources to fighting him (in particular, forcing you to use your replicate CD on fighting him), then it's a net win for him, even if he cannot immediately out-fight you. So when is Morphling a good pick(lets assume it is last pick)? In a line up with no Antimage or Alch? How does he fair against Joy-stealer in the land of speed farming? Naix really isn't a "speedfarmer" at all, so it's not really a good comparison. Naix works because he just needs an armlet to start killing stuff. Yeah, I know, he came into fashion with LD and the "tower punchers" line ups that just got armlet and slamed down the lanes with stupid abouts of HP. But that is not the question at hand. When is he a good pick in a line up? What late game farmers can he keep up with and how does he fair against some stong mid game carries like Lifestealer?
It was an odd question because of your use of " in the land of speed farming" when neither of them are flash farmers. I think it depends far more on the supporting cast to say wether Morphling can safely farm/splitpush against a Naix.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 06 2013 00:52 Kipsate wrote:
Morph his strength is the ability to instantly make the fight 5v4 without comitting many if any resources. Also note that Morphling is forced into Linkens against AM or he will be slam dunked every fight, moreover even with Linkens there are obviously teammates that can break it.
Yeah that's the thing.
The AM comparison was sort of a bad one mostly because AM as a hero is pretty good against Morphling as a hero (go figure a hero that burns mana and punishes using mana is strong against one that's chugging mana nonstop in a teamfight), irrespective of how hard they carry lategame.
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On August 06 2013 01:00 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:58 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 00:55 SKC wrote:On August 06 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 00:47 TheYango wrote:On August 06 2013 00:37 BlitzerSC wrote:
Just replicate AM and fight 2vs1 ? He'll never kill you if you are playing in a smart way.
He doesn't need to kill you. The thing is, if the game is 4v4 with AM and Morph both farming, AM is going to outfarm the Morph because Morph's overall jungle farming efficiency is much lower than AM. Morph has to use his stronger earlier impact to seal the game because at 3 major items (BF+Manta+1), AM takes over the game. To properly do this without letting AM steamroll towers, you need to take advantage of the global aspect of Replicate, meaning if AM forces you to commit resources to fighting him (in particular, forcing you to use your replicate CD on fighting him), then it's a net win for him, even if he cannot immediately out-fight you. So when is Morphling a good pick(lets assume it is last pick)? In a line up with no Antimage or Alch? How does he fair against Joy-stealer in the land of speed farming? Naix really isn't a "speedfarmer" at all, so it's not really a good comparison. Naix works because he just needs an armlet to start killing stuff. Yeah, I know, he came into fashion with LD and the "tower punchers" line ups that just got armlet and slamed down the lanes with stupid abouts of HP. But that is not the question at hand. When is he a good pick in a line up? What late game farmers can he keep up with and how does he fair against some stong mid game carries like Lifestealer? It was an odd question because of your use of " in the land of speed farming" when neither of them are flash farmers. I think it depends far more on the supporting cast to say wether Morphling can safely farm/splitpush against a Naix.
Sorry I worded that poorly, that was my fault. I was trying to get an idea of when we might see a morphling or what would cause a team to pick one. He is clearly the latest of late games carrys, but when it is a good idea to try for that?
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United States47024 Posts
On August 06 2013 01:00 Comeh wrote:
This is true, though you can still say the same thing about using your replicate to fight rather than for coming in to fight while splitpushing / farming.
It's less so, because just the same Alchemist has to commit to using HIS ult to 1v1 you if he wants to win a man-fight. If neither side commits their ults, Morphling wins.
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Am does well against morphling in the early-mid stages of the game, but when the Morphling gets his items up then the situation turns.
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On August 06 2013 01:07 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 01:00 Comeh wrote:
This is true, though you can still say the same thing about using your replicate to fight rather than for coming in to fight while splitpushing / farming.
It's less so, because just the same Alchemist has to commit to using HIS ult to 1v1 you if he wants to win a man-fight. If neither side commits their ults, Morphling wins.
I suppose the idea that I'm thinking of (maybe I'm wrong here) is a situation where Alchemist team wants to commit to a fight 5v4, while morphling is splitpushing with his replicant near a fight. Morphling has to replicate back into the fight or his team will lose and has to end his split push, while Alchemist is OBVIOUSLY going to use his ultimate.
I, however, haven't played around with the matchup too much though, so I dont know how it fairs. However, freefarm alchy is always terrifying.
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On August 06 2013 01:08 BlitzerSC wrote:
Am does well against morphling in the early-mid stages of the game, but when the Morphling gets his items up then the situation turns.
I think the point that people are making is that the game will never get to that point, because AM will get to the 5 man dota stage earlier and burn down Morphlings home.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 06 2013 01:08 BlitzerSC wrote:
Am does well against morphling in the early-mid stages of the game, but when the Morphling gets his items up then the situation turns.
It swings back in AM's favor once AM gets Heart, because at that point, AM can play split-push scenarios by trading his HP for Morph's mana, and then blinking out and waiting on Heart regen. AM can come back after 10 seconds, while Morph needs to consider whether he should go home and cede the lane or risk entering a teamfight with half mana (which can be a very dangerous proposition, especially against AM).
Again, the key timing is Morph's 2 items up until AM has 3.
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On August 06 2013 01:12 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 01:08 BlitzerSC wrote:
Am does well against morphling in the early-mid stages of the game, but when the Morphling gets his items up then the situation turns. I think the point that people are making is that the game will never get to that point, because AM will get to the 5 man dota stage earlier and burn down Morphlings home.
Also is this really true?
AM gets bfury --> goes into jungle, nothing happens
AM gets manta --> can't fight morphling
AM gets heart --> splitpushes, morph can't really stop him
AM gets bfly --> can kill morphs team (not morph tho), morph can't really stop him
AM gets basher/abyssal --> ?
An AM with abyssal is just really, really scary. I know 6 slotted morph is also really, really scary but can he really survive that?
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On August 06 2013 01:18 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 01:12 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 01:08 BlitzerSC wrote:
Am does well against morphling in the early-mid stages of the game, but when the Morphling gets his items up then the situation turns. I think the point that people are making is that the game will never get to that point, because AM will get to the 5 man dota stage earlier and burn down Morphlings home. Also is this really true? AM gets bfury --> goes into jungle, nothing happens AM gets manta --> can't fight morphling AM gets heart --> splitpushes, morph can't really stop him AM gets bfly --> can kill morphs team (not morph tho), morph can't really stop him AM gets basher/abyssal --> ? An AM with abyssal is just really, really scary. I know 6 slotted morph is also really, really scary but can he really survive that?
From my experience, and if someone can break Morph's linkens, not really. Maybe I'm awful though.
AM also can still fight morphling with manta - its just more even of a fight than in other timings.
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On August 06 2013 01:21 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 01:18 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On August 06 2013 01:12 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 01:08 BlitzerSC wrote:
Am does well against morphling in the early-mid stages of the game, but when the Morphling gets his items up then the situation turns. I think the point that people are making is that the game will never get to that point, because AM will get to the 5 man dota stage earlier and burn down Morphlings home. Also is this really true? AM gets bfury --> goes into jungle, nothing happens AM gets manta --> can't fight morphling AM gets heart --> splitpushes, morph can't really stop him AM gets bfly --> can kill morphs team (not morph tho), morph can't really stop him AM gets basher/abyssal --> ? An AM with abyssal is just really, really scary. I know 6 slotted morph is also really, really scary but can he really survive that? From my experience, and if someone can break Morph's linkens, not really. Maybe I'm awful though. AM also can still fight morphling with manta - its just more even of a fight than in other timings.
Doesn't this all assume that both of them never get ganked or jumped? From my understanding, AM is way better at avoiding being murdered than Morph.
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United States47024 Posts
Morph with Linken isn't easier to catch than AM.
Though that often relies on him having a replicate to jump to rather than saving it's CD to man-fight someone.
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On August 06 2013 01:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 01:21 Comeh wrote:On August 06 2013 01:18 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On August 06 2013 01:12 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 01:08 BlitzerSC wrote:
Am does well against morphling in the early-mid stages of the game, but when the Morphling gets his items up then the situation turns. I think the point that people are making is that the game will never get to that point, because AM will get to the 5 man dota stage earlier and burn down Morphlings home. Also is this really true? AM gets bfury --> goes into jungle, nothing happens AM gets manta --> can't fight morphling AM gets heart --> splitpushes, morph can't really stop him AM gets bfly --> can kill morphs team (not morph tho), morph can't really stop him AM gets basher/abyssal --> ? An AM with abyssal is just really, really scary. I know 6 slotted morph is also really, really scary but can he really survive that? From my experience, and if someone can break Morph's linkens, not really. Maybe I'm awful though. AM also can still fight morphling with manta - its just more even of a fight than in other timings. Doesn't this all assume that both of them never get ganked or jumped? From my understanding, AM is way better at avoiding being murdered than Morph.
Wouldn't say way better. You essentially have to 100 -> 0 either one so they can't blink/replicate away.
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On August 06 2013 01:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 01:21 Comeh wrote:On August 06 2013 01:18 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On August 06 2013 01:12 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 01:08 BlitzerSC wrote:
Am does well against morphling in the early-mid stages of the game, but when the Morphling gets his items up then the situation turns. I think the point that people are making is that the game will never get to that point, because AM will get to the 5 man dota stage earlier and burn down Morphlings home. Also is this really true? AM gets bfury --> goes into jungle, nothing happens AM gets manta --> can't fight morphling AM gets heart --> splitpushes, morph can't really stop him AM gets bfly --> can kill morphs team (not morph tho), morph can't really stop him AM gets basher/abyssal --> ? An AM with abyssal is just really, really scary. I know 6 slotted morph is also really, really scary but can he really survive that? From my experience, and if someone can break Morph's linkens, not really. Maybe I'm awful though. AM also can still fight morphling with manta - its just more even of a fight than in other timings. Doesn't this all assume that both of them never get ganked or jumped? From my understanding, AM is way better at avoiding being murdered than Morph.
This is assuming some silly situation where we have hit super lategame and they are manfighting each other 1v1
Theorycrafting at its finest.
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On August 06 2013 01:26 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 01:22 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 01:21 Comeh wrote:On August 06 2013 01:18 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On August 06 2013 01:12 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 01:08 BlitzerSC wrote:
Am does well against morphling in the early-mid stages of the game, but when the Morphling gets his items up then the situation turns. I think the point that people are making is that the game will never get to that point, because AM will get to the 5 man dota stage earlier and burn down Morphlings home. Also is this really true? AM gets bfury --> goes into jungle, nothing happens AM gets manta --> can't fight morphling AM gets heart --> splitpushes, morph can't really stop him AM gets bfly --> can kill morphs team (not morph tho), morph can't really stop him AM gets basher/abyssal --> ? An AM with abyssal is just really, really scary. I know 6 slotted morph is also really, really scary but can he really survive that? From my experience, and if someone can break Morph's linkens, not really. Maybe I'm awful though. AM also can still fight morphling with manta - its just more even of a fight than in other timings. Doesn't this all assume that both of them never get ganked or jumped? From my understanding, AM is way better at avoiding being murdered than Morph. This is assuming some silly situation where we have hit super lategame and they are manfighting each other 1v1 Theorycrafting at its finest.
Sort of like the great theory craft of who can get dumber: 12 slot LD or 6 slot meepo?
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On August 06 2013 01:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 01:26 Comeh wrote:On August 06 2013 01:22 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 01:21 Comeh wrote:On August 06 2013 01:18 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:On August 06 2013 01:12 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 01:08 BlitzerSC wrote:
Am does well against morphling in the early-mid stages of the game, but when the Morphling gets his items up then the situation turns. I think the point that people are making is that the game will never get to that point, because AM will get to the 5 man dota stage earlier and burn down Morphlings home. Also is this really true? AM gets bfury --> goes into jungle, nothing happens AM gets manta --> can't fight morphling AM gets heart --> splitpushes, morph can't really stop him AM gets bfly --> can kill morphs team (not morph tho), morph can't really stop him AM gets basher/abyssal --> ? An AM with abyssal is just really, really scary. I know 6 slotted morph is also really, really scary but can he really survive that? From my experience, and if someone can break Morph's linkens, not really. Maybe I'm awful though. AM also can still fight morphling with manta - its just more even of a fight than in other timings. Doesn't this all assume that both of them never get ganked or jumped? From my understanding, AM is way better at avoiding being murdered than Morph. This is assuming some silly situation where we have hit super lategame and they are manfighting each other 1v1 Theorycrafting at its finest. Sort of like the great theory craft of who can get dumber: 12 slot LD or 6 slot meepo?
I mean, how do you beat 12 rapiers?
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EPT
