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On August 06 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:Because PL doesn't do a ton of damage, he just seiges really well and is a dick. If Morphling has any AOE support, he can just blast down the illusions and kill PL with his bring right clicks. Plus a farmed morphling goes super fast.
How do you "blast down the illusions" when you are giving your 1 farm to a morphling? Its not like QoP's Scream / Sonic Wave will do much to a PL with .4375 magic resistance (might have done that math wrong) with a heart. I suppose if morph gets a perfect EB shot off against PL...
No he'll still live.
PL is pretty effective against Morph unless a snowball occurs in the 15-20 minute mark with at least a rax by 25.
Something important to consider with Morphling is his "pace of game" that he has versus his total carry ability. There are a lot of heroes that match Morphling's pace of game (his farm rate / when he wants to be effective), yet have a much higher rate of effectiveness during the same time.
Classic example is Morph vs AM - both of these heroes are ran as safelane carries (though, with AM you can solo him against some offlaners) and look to build their first few items, though they both might join a fight or two during that period. Both of these heroes are split pusheres that are difficult to gank.
Here's the difference - AM gets a lot more out of safelane freefarm, because by the time morphling has 3 slot, AM will have 5 slots and can manfight and kill Morphling relatively easily (yes, even with the replicant). Morphling is also really dependent on his mana pool, and usually has a lot of mana (so void will do a ton of damage), The hero doesn't just match up well against AM. I'd say this might be the case for PL too, though I haven't really encountered the situation too often.
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But I thought Void was the hardest late game carry?
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United States47024 Posts
On August 06 2013 00:19 SKC wrote:
He didn't "just" nerf his midlane abilities. Waveform and Mana cost changes affect his midgame quite a bit. He was also only picked after he got buffed again.
This as well as the EBlade changes.
Essentially, the amount of room you have for midgame itemization is a lot smaller now because of how restrictive your mana usage is. Without a regen item like Linken, it becomes very hard to practically manage his mana. BKB-first and EBlade-first can lead to very awkward situations if the game doesn't pan out for you, and a Linken-first build by nature forces you into a scenario where you are farming for your 2nd/3rd major item before entering fights.
This consequently affects his pub winrate as well, because fundamentally afk-farming heroes that cede midgame control are going to be less successful pub heroes by nature of how pubs snowball really hard off early mistakes/advantages.
Somewhat unrelated: I'm going to be very annoyed seeing Linken's Weaver in pubs after TI3. It's appropriate when your team is going to leave you to split-push and farm, but by and large, you should never expect to do that in a pub game.
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On August 06 2013 00:34 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:19 SKC wrote:
He didn't "just" nerf his midlane abilities. Waveform and Mana cost changes affect his midgame quite a bit. He was also only picked after he got buffed again. Somewhat unrelated: I'm going to be very annoyed seeing Linken's Weaver in pubs after TI3. It's appropriate when your team is going to leave you to split-push and farm to your second major item, but by and large, you should never expect to do that in a pub game.
Hate to break it to you, but they've been doing it for years.
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Isn't Moprhs "thing" that he oneshots a random (squishy) member of the enemy team before the actuall fight even happens and can snowball like mad when he gets linkens/eblade fast due to just kicking supports around however he pleases?
I mean... If you want a 1on5 superhardcarry AM or Faceless Void are most probably better suited.
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On August 06 2013 00:19 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:15 BlitzerSC wrote:Icefrog just nerfed his "mid lane" abilities. Nothing too big, he is still one of the best late game carry. The only difference is that you just can't lane him mid anymore and autowin your lane with 3 rightclick + waveform. On August 06 2013 00:14 Comeh wrote:On August 06 2013 00:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:
He went down like 15% in pub winrate too. From like 53% due to including mid-low level players to like 38% for a while. Now he's kind of one of those heroes that you only play if you are much better than everyone else, enjoy losing, or you random him (in pubs). LOL No. His pub winrate is low because people play him wrong. He didn't "just" nerf his midlane abilities. Waveform and Mana cost changes affect his midgame quite a bit. He was also only picked after he got buffed again.
Yeah now you can't instagib people anymore with just 3 right click and a waveform 10 minutes in the game. What a tragedy.
On August 06 2013 00:20 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:15 BlitzerSC wrote:Icefrog just nerfed his "mid lane" abilities. Nothing too big, he is still one of the best late game carry. The only difference is that you just can't lane him mid anymore and autowin your lane with 3 rightclick + waveform. On August 06 2013 00:14 Comeh wrote:On August 06 2013 00:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:
He went down like 15% in pub winrate too. From like 53% due to including mid-low level players to like 38% for a while. Now he's kind of one of those heroes that you only play if you are much better than everyone else, enjoy losing, or you random him (in pubs). LOL No. His pub winrate is low because people play him wrong. he nerfed his getting to the lategame, which is what made him such a beast
Now you have to play him more like a hard carry. I don't see the problem here. Even then, he still does quite a lot of dmg mid game with waveform + right click even with just linkens.
On August 06 2013 00:20 zezamer wrote:
How could morph ever outcarry PL ?
That's why I said ONE of the best. And usually you don't fight PL head on if he already has spawned a bunch of illusions. Also Morphling is a beast split pusher as long as you know wtf you are doing and that helps quite a bit with PL.
btw, I would say PL is probably one of the best late game carry as well.
On August 06 2013 00:20 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:18 Numy wrote:
In this truth is Anti-mage one of the best late game carries too? Antimage actually typically outcarries/deals well with morphling. Morphling loses to quite a few of 1v1 carries, he doesn't have the teamfight killing abilities a Gyro or Spectre has, His EB loses a decent amount of effectiveness over time, he doesn't have as strong of a steroid skill as some heroes do (even though morph is strong, and replicate is pretty powerful too). There's a lot of heroes that will beat morph if the game goes long enough.
Just replicate AM and fight 2vs1 ? He'll never kill you if you are playing in a smart way.
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He's a good lategame carry no doubt but I wouldn't say he's top dog.
There's quite a few other carries that carry just as hard and get to that point much easier and a few that carry even harder.
Like would you rather have a 6 slotted morphling or a 6 slotted medusa?
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On August 06 2013 00:37 BlitzerSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:19 SKC wrote:On August 06 2013 00:15 BlitzerSC wrote:Icefrog just nerfed his "mid lane" abilities. Nothing too big, he is still one of the best late game carry. The only difference is that you just can't lane him mid anymore and autowin your lane with 3 rightclick + waveform. On August 06 2013 00:14 Comeh wrote:On August 06 2013 00:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:
He went down like 15% in pub winrate too. From like 53% due to including mid-low level players to like 38% for a while. Now he's kind of one of those heroes that you only play if you are much better than everyone else, enjoy losing, or you random him (in pubs). LOL No. His pub winrate is low because people play him wrong. He didn't "just" nerf his midlane abilities. Waveform and Mana cost changes affect his midgame quite a bit. He was also only picked after he got buffed again. Yeah now you can't instagib people anymore with just 3 right click and a waveform 10 minutes in the game. What a tragedy. Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:20 cilinder007 wrote:On August 06 2013 00:15 BlitzerSC wrote:Icefrog just nerfed his "mid lane" abilities. Nothing too big, he is still one of the best late game carry. The only difference is that you just can't lane him mid anymore and autowin your lane with 3 rightclick + waveform. On August 06 2013 00:14 Comeh wrote:On August 06 2013 00:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:
He went down like 15% in pub winrate too. From like 53% due to including mid-low level players to like 38% for a while. Now he's kind of one of those heroes that you only play if you are much better than everyone else, enjoy losing, or you random him (in pubs). LOL No. His pub winrate is low because people play him wrong. he nerfed his getting to the lategame, which is what made him such a beast Now you have to play him more like a hard carry. I don't see the problem here. Even then, he still does quite a lot of dmg mid game with waveform + right click even with just linkens. That's why I said ONE of the best. And usually you don't fight PL head on if he already has spawned a bunch of illusions. Also Morphling is a beast split pusher as long as you know wtf you are doing and that helps quite a bit with PL. btw, I would say PL is probably one of the best late game carry as well. Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:20 Comeh wrote:On August 06 2013 00:18 Numy wrote:
In this truth is Anti-mage one of the best late game carries too? Antimage actually typically outcarries/deals well with morphling. Morphling loses to quite a few of 1v1 carries, he doesn't have the teamfight killing abilities a Gyro or Spectre has, His EB loses a decent amount of effectiveness over time, he doesn't have as strong of a steroid skill as some heroes do (even though morph is strong, and replicate is pretty powerful too). There's a lot of heroes that will beat morph if the game goes long enough. Just replicate AM and fight 2vs1 ? He'll never kill you if you are playing in a smart way.
If you want to simplify the matchup that much, let's play by these rules.
He buys an Abyssal - GG dead before he's not stunlocked anymore.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 06 2013 00:36 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:34 TheYango wrote:On August 06 2013 00:19 SKC wrote:
He didn't "just" nerf his midlane abilities. Waveform and Mana cost changes affect his midgame quite a bit. He was also only picked after he got buffed again. Somewhat unrelated: I'm going to be very annoyed seeing Linken's Weaver in pubs after TI3. It's appropriate when your team is going to leave you to split-push and farm to your second major item, but by and large, you should never expect to do that in a pub game. Hate to break it to you, but they've been doing it for years.
Well yes, but now people are going to feel vindicated by seeing it at TI3, when in reality nothing's changed--just people are picking the hero into situations where the Linken is good instead of using the hero's early teamfight ability. But in pubs you're still more likely to win the game putting that early teamfight ability to use.
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On August 06 2013 00:31 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:28 Plansix wrote:On August 06 2013 00:20 zezamer wrote:
How could morph ever outcarry PL ? Because PL doesn't do a ton of damage, he just seiges really well and is a dick. If Morphling has any AOE support, he can just blast down the illusions and kill PL with his bring right clicks. Plus a farmed morphling goes super fast. How do you "blast down the illusions" when you are giving your 1 farm to a morphling? Its not like QoP's Scream / Sonic Wave will do much to a PL with .4375 magic resistance (might have done that math wrong) with a heart. I suppose if morph gets a perfect EB shot off against PL... No he'll still live. PL is pretty effective against Morph unless a snowball occurs in the 15-20 minute mark with at least a rax by 25. Something important to consider with Morphling is his "pace of game" that he has versus his total carry ability. There are a lot of heroes that match Morphling's pace of game (his farm rate / when he wants to be effective), yet have a much higher rate of effectiveness during the same time. Classic example is Morph vs AM - both of these heroes are ran as safelane carries (though, with AM you can solo him against some offlaners) and look to build their first few items, though they both might join a fight or two during that period. Both of these heroes are split pusheres that are difficult to gank. Here's the difference - AM gets a lot more out of safelane freefarm, because by the time morphling has 3 slot, AM will have 5 slots and can manfight and kill Morphling relatively easily (yes, even with the replicant). Morphling is also really dependent on his mana pool, and usually has a lot of mana (so void will do a ton of damage), The hero doesn't just match up well against AM. I'd say this might be the case for PL too, though I haven't really encountered the situation too often.
Oh I am living in the magic world where they both get to their true magic potential with 6 items of glory. Its never going to happen, since morphling is not Antimage or even PA.
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They BOTH buy an Abyssal. Where's your god now?
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On August 06 2013 00:37 BlitzerSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:19 SKC wrote:On August 06 2013 00:15 BlitzerSC wrote:Icefrog just nerfed his "mid lane" abilities. Nothing too big, he is still one of the best late game carry. The only difference is that you just can't lane him mid anymore and autowin your lane with 3 rightclick + waveform. On August 06 2013 00:14 Comeh wrote:On August 06 2013 00:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:
He went down like 15% in pub winrate too. From like 53% due to including mid-low level players to like 38% for a while. Now he's kind of one of those heroes that you only play if you are much better than everyone else, enjoy losing, or you random him (in pubs). LOL No. His pub winrate is low because people play him wrong. He didn't "just" nerf his midlane abilities. Waveform and Mana cost changes affect his midgame quite a bit. He was also only picked after he got buffed again. Yeah now you can't instagib people anymore with just 3 right click and a waveform 10 minutes in the game. What a tragedy. Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:20 cilinder007 wrote:On August 06 2013 00:15 BlitzerSC wrote:Icefrog just nerfed his "mid lane" abilities. Nothing too big, he is still one of the best late game carry. The only difference is that you just can't lane him mid anymore and autowin your lane with 3 rightclick + waveform. On August 06 2013 00:14 Comeh wrote:On August 06 2013 00:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:
He went down like 15% in pub winrate too. From like 53% due to including mid-low level players to like 38% for a while. Now he's kind of one of those heroes that you only play if you are much better than everyone else, enjoy losing, or you random him (in pubs). LOL No. His pub winrate is low because people play him wrong. he nerfed his getting to the lategame, which is what made him such a beast Now you have to play him more like a hard carry. I don't see the problem here. Even then, he still does quite a lot of dmg mid game with waveform + right click even with just linkens. That's why I said ONE of the best. And usually you don't fight PL head on if he already has spawned a bunch of illusions. Also Morphling is a beast split pusher as long as you know wtf you are doing and that helps quite a bit with PL. btw, I would say PL is probably one of the best late game carry as well. Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:20 Comeh wrote:On August 06 2013 00:18 Numy wrote:
In this truth is Anti-mage one of the best late game carries too? Antimage actually typically outcarries/deals well with morphling. Morphling loses to quite a few of 1v1 carries, he doesn't have the teamfight killing abilities a Gyro or Spectre has, His EB loses a decent amount of effectiveness over time, he doesn't have as strong of a steroid skill as some heroes do (even though morph is strong, and replicate is pretty powerful too). There's a lot of heroes that will beat morph if the game goes long enough. Just replicate AM and fight 2vs1 ? He'll never kill you if you are playing in a smart way.
I've played AM versus a feed morph, he won't kill you either as long as you play smart.
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United States47024 Posts
On August 06 2013 00:37 BlitzerSC wrote:
Just replicate AM and fight 2vs1 ? He'll never kill you if you are playing in a smart way.
He doesn't need to kill you.
The thing is, if the game is 4v4 with AM and Morph both farming, AM is going to outfarm the Morph because Morph's overall jungle farming efficiency is much lower than AM. Morph has to use his stronger earlier impact to seal the game because at 3 major items (BF+Manta+1), AM takes over the game. To properly do this without letting AM steamroll towers, you need to take advantage of the global aspect of Replicate, meaning if AM forces you to commit resources to fighting him (in particular, forcing you to use your replicate CD on fighting him), then it's a net win for him, even if he cannot immediately out-fight you.
Morph's key timing is 2 major items (e.g. Linken+EBlade or Linken+Manta vs. BF+Manta), but AM becomes super hard for Morph to deal with once he gets his 3rd item. Particularly in the case of Heart, you then become unable to deal with the split-pushing scenario because then AM's MO is to trade his health for your mana, then blink out and wait for Heart regen while you have to worry about the risk of entering a teamfight with not enough mana.
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I was so happy when XBOCT went abyssal on weaver yesterday.
Too many people are stuck in a mindset of "Buying an item with a bash on a ranged hero? LOL YOU NOOB"
Obviously i don't think buying just a basher is good, but the active and the stats from abyssal are really really good.
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Yes, so we are all agreeing that AM farms faster than Morphling and that AM's strenght comes from farming items faster than his opponent ( that's what i've written 1 page ago fyi ). But saying that Morphling is not one of the best late game carries is just wrong, and then you try to prove your point with the AM example after what I posted ? C'mon, if both carries are full slotted there is no way AM can beat a Morphling.
Worth nothing that my first post said "Morphling is one of the best LATE GAME carry in the game". You are not talking about a late game situation.
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On August 06 2013 00:47 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:37 BlitzerSC wrote:
Just replicate AM and fight 2vs1 ? He'll never kill you if you are playing in a smart way.
Morph's key timing is 2 major items (e.g. Linken+EBlade or Linken+Manta vs. BF+Manta), but AM becomes super hard for Morph to deal with once he gets his 3rd item.
Worth noting that AM will typically have half of his third item complete by the time Morph finishes his second, unless one or the other had a hard lane.
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On August 06 2013 00:47 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:37 BlitzerSC wrote:
Just replicate AM and fight 2vs1 ? He'll never kill you if you are playing in a smart way.
He doesn't need to kill you. The thing is, if the game is 4v4 with AM and Morph both farming, AM is going to outfarm the Morph because Morph's overall jungle farming efficiency is much lower than AM. Morph has to use his stronger earlier impact to seal the game because at 3 major items (BF+Manta+1), AM takes over the game. To properly do this without letting AM steamroll towers, you need to take advantage of the global aspect of Replicate, meaning if AM forces you to commit resources to fighting him (in particular, forcing you to use your replicate CD on fighting him), then it's a net win for him, even if he cannot immediately out-fight you.
So when is Morphling a good pick(lets assume it is last pick)? In a line up with no Antimage or Alch? How does he fair against Joy-stealer in the land of speed farming?
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Morph his strength is the ability to instantly make the fight 5v4 without comitting many if any resources. Also note that Morphling is forced into Linkens against AM or he will be slam dunked every fight, moreover even with Linkens there are obviously teammates that can break it.
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On August 06 2013 00:52 BlitzerSC wrote:
Yes, so we are all agreeing that AM farms faster than Morphling and that AM's strenght comes from farming items faster than his opponent ( that's what i've written 1 page ago fyi ). But saying that Morphling is not one of the best late game carries is just wrong, and then you try to prove your point with the AM example after what I posted ? C'mon, if both carries are full slotted there is no way AM can beat a Morphling.
Its somewhat even, IMO, I would give an advantage to AM because he can build an Abyssal, and often that determines the victor between a manfight. Generally comes down to supports.
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On August 06 2013 00:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2013 00:47 TheYango wrote:On August 06 2013 00:37 BlitzerSC wrote:
Just replicate AM and fight 2vs1 ? He'll never kill you if you are playing in a smart way.
He doesn't need to kill you. The thing is, if the game is 4v4 with AM and Morph both farming, AM is going to outfarm the Morph because Morph's overall jungle farming efficiency is much lower than AM. Morph has to use his stronger earlier impact to seal the game because at 3 major items (BF+Manta+1), AM takes over the game. To properly do this without letting AM steamroll towers, you need to take advantage of the global aspect of Replicate, meaning if AM forces you to commit resources to fighting him (in particular, forcing you to use your replicate CD on fighting him), then it's a net win for him, even if he cannot immediately out-fight you. So when is Morphling a good pick(lets assume it is last pick)? In a line up with no Antimage or Alch? How does he fair against Joy-stealer in the land of speed farming?
Naix really isn't a "speedfarmer" at all, so it's not really a good comparison. Naix works because he just needs an armlet to start killing stuff.
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EPT
