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On April 19 2013 06:26 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 06:20 Numy wrote:
It matters but it isn't the only thing you need to judge by. Plus all those heroes except for QoP aren't good at escaping ganks(How can you count morphling when he's so bad right now). Storm is only good post 6 and any smoke gank will aim for pre-6 ganks. Even post 6 he's really squishy so he has to preemptively move or he'll sitll die. Magnus is the same is this regard but he's slightly better pre-6 and slightly worse post-6.
Sure they stronger than what you listed but they still die to the same ganks. It's just they recover and do more with less. Look i'm not saying it's not important. I'm just saying it's not the be all and end all. Oh, agreed. I'm just saying that saying Bloodseeker has extremely strong laning because of his passive + silence is overlooking all his faults.
I actually just thought about it some more and I've come up with why I was so against the "them surviving smoke ganks". I think the smoke gank is more about killing aggressive lane dominance. When SF was big it was because he could dominate the lane but now if you try dominate a lane you expose yourself to ganks. Mids like Mag almost never more past the river, they just spam waveclear,bottlecrow and stack small jungle camps. The Mag will still die to a smoke gank but it doesn't really matter to him since he's not being aggressive and doesn't need to be aggressive to do his job. The only mids that do dominate lanes are QoP/Puck/TA where the first two are super hard to gank and the third is not seen as much these days.
It's actually kind of sad now that I think about it. Mid these days is just a stalemate of bottle crowing.
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TBH, no matter what level of play its always "This level of play is terrible I can't wait till I get matched with good players" 
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On April 19 2013 06:33 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 06:26 Firebolt145 wrote:On April 19 2013 06:20 Numy wrote:
It matters but it isn't the only thing you need to judge by. Plus all those heroes except for QoP aren't good at escaping ganks(How can you count morphling when he's so bad right now). Storm is only good post 6 and any smoke gank will aim for pre-6 ganks. Even post 6 he's really squishy so he has to preemptively move or he'll sitll die. Magnus is the same is this regard but he's slightly better pre-6 and slightly worse post-6.
Sure they stronger than what you listed but they still die to the same ganks. It's just they recover and do more with less. Look i'm not saying it's not important. I'm just saying it's not the be all and end all. Oh, agreed. I'm just saying that saying Bloodseeker has extremely strong laning because of his passive + silence is overlooking all his faults. I actually just thought about it some more and I've come up with why I was so against the "them surviving smoke ganks". I think the smoke gank is more about killing aggressive lane dominance. When SF was big it was because he could dominate the lane but now if you try dominate a lane you expose yourself to ganks. Mids like Mag almost never more past the river, they just spam waveclear,bottlecrow and stack small jungle camps. The Mag will still die to a smoke gank but it doesn't really matter to him since he's not being aggressive and doesn't need to be aggressive to do his job. The only mids that do dominate lanes are QoP/Puck/TA where the first two are super hard to gank and the third is not seen as much these days. It's actually kind of sad now that I think about it. Mid these days is just a stalemate of bottle crowing.
Well, the thing about mag is that he has abilities that can outright punish a smoke gank (skewer back to tower, reverse polarity, fast animation nuke) and has an escape (that will get high levels in mid).
SF's punishment is dim, at best.
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United States47024 Posts
SF never "dominated" the lane. SF lost to most normal mids regardless (he's quite a weak mid hero except in a few exceptional matchups), it's just the tempo of the game generally was more accommodating to him maxing out souls and farming anyway past level 5/7. The pace of the game doesn't allow that as easily anymore--the enemy team just keeps the pressure up and doesn't give you the space to farm your way back into the game.
On April 19 2013 06:33 Numy wrote:
It's actually kind of sad now that I think about it. Mid these days is just a stalemate of bottle crowing.
This is an enormous mis-attribution, because Bottle-Crowing went in and out of style even with Smoke in the game.
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I'd like to see teams take a more active stance on "ganking the courier" for a few games. Free win mid and all.
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On April 19 2013 06:46 Sn0_Man wrote:
I'd like to see teams take a more active stance on "ganking the courier" for a few games. Free win mid and all.
They did this for a handful of games in the west.
And then teams started changing the route the courier took.
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On April 19 2013 06:39 TheYango wrote:SF never "dominated" the lane. SF lost to most normal mids regardless (he's quite a weak mid hero except in a few exceptional matchups), it's just the tempo of the game generally was more accommodating to him maxing out souls and farming anyway past level 5/7. The pace of the game doesn't allow that as easily anymore--the enemy team just keeps the pressure up and doesn't give you the space to farm your way back into the game. Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 06:33 Numy wrote:
It's actually kind of sad now that I think about it. Mid these days is just a stalemate of bottle crowing. This is an enormous mis-attribution, because Bottle-Crowing went in and out of style even with Smoke in the game.
Never meant to say Bottle-crowing causes the staleness. I don't know what the root cause is. Maybe teams are just more willing to have neutral mid lanes than risk losing it.
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On April 19 2013 06:53 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 06:39 TheYango wrote:SF never "dominated" the lane. SF lost to most normal mids regardless (he's quite a weak mid hero except in a few exceptional matchups), it's just the tempo of the game generally was more accommodating to him maxing out souls and farming anyway past level 5/7. The pace of the game doesn't allow that as easily anymore--the enemy team just keeps the pressure up and doesn't give you the space to farm your way back into the game. On April 19 2013 06:33 Numy wrote:
It's actually kind of sad now that I think about it. Mid these days is just a stalemate of bottle crowing. This is an enormous mis-attribution, because Bottle-Crowing went in and out of style even with Smoke in the game. Never meant to say Bottle-crowing causes the staleness. I don't know what the root cause is. Maybe teams are just more willing to have neutral mid lanes than risk losing it.
I think most mid players know what it takes to not outright lose your lane (get killed) these days, and to kill them usually requires a smoke gank. Some of this might be due to improved quality of mid players in the west, a little of it has to do with what mid heroes are popular right now.
It also helps most mid heroes that are popular are outright tanky, or have a significant escape mechanism.
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Well personally I think radiant jungle is just too good for mid and might need some kind of altering. It's almost impossible to lose a mid lane with a hero that can AoE on radiant due to this.
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United States47024 Posts
I think it has to do with the specific pool of mid heroes that are strong enough overall to see play. Bottle-crowing was more or less kept in check in 6.74, despite being nearly ubiquitous in DotA 1 in 6.73. The heroes that needed to do it like TA and Panda still did it, but the strong non-Bottle Crow mids (e.g. Invoker, Rubick, Morphling) had enough suppressive ability to warrant being picked against them. It's just that some of those strong mids simply got nerfed, so what's left isn't enough to really put the pressure on bottle-crowing heroes (or at least the ones that are strong enough have weaknesses in other areas preventing them from being picked).
That said, I think people read into Pajkatt's comment about bottle-crowing way too much. It only really applies to the highest level of play where mistakes are extremely few to none. Below that top tier of play, there are enough mistakes made by second-rate mid-laners that they can be exploited and lanes can be won. It's just that people take bottle-crowing as an excuse to not look for these openings.
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On April 19 2013 06:59 Numy wrote:
Well personally I think radiant jungle is just too good for mid and might need some kind of altering. It's almost impossible to lose a mid lane with a hero that can AoE on radiant due to this.
when was the last pro game where the lane was heavily tilted because of the small camp
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On April 19 2013 07:28 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 06:59 Numy wrote:
Well personally I think radiant jungle is just too good for mid and might need some kind of altering. It's almost impossible to lose a mid lane with a hero that can AoE on radiant due to this. when was the last pro game where the lane was heavily tilted because of the small camp
It's never tilted, it's neutralized due to it. That's basically all s4 does on mag. Push wave stack/farm camp. It means that you can always farm out in safety.
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To be fair, i wouldnt mind seeing flying courier HP being nerfed into 1 shot material. Seeing dendi just let the courier hug the hero while crowing bottle is just annoying let alone the fact that ability spam instead of rune contesting isnt a great thing to watch. Puck spam kill creep wave, mag spam kill creepwave, wave die 2 heroes goes back crowing and nothing happen. Making the flying crow relatively easier to kill could be a great way to punish such greedy play. Plus it also gona stop EnternalEnvy crow spawn block bullshit >.>
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On April 19 2013 08:12 NB wrote:
To be fair, i wouldnt mind seeing flying courier HP being nerfed into 1 shot material. Seeing dendi just let the courier hug the hero while crowing bottle is just annoying let alone the fact that ability spam instead of rune contesting isnt a great thing to watch. Puck spam kill creep wave, mag spam kill creepwave, wave die 2 heroes goes back crowing and nothing happen. Making the flying crow relatively easier to kill could be a great way to punish such greedy play. Plus it also gona stop EnternalEnvy crow spawn block bullshit >.>
i like this idea of making the flying courier 1shot
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On April 19 2013 08:48 Imbajoe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 08:12 NB wrote:
To be fair, i wouldnt mind seeing flying courier HP being nerfed into 1 shot material. Seeing dendi just let the courier hug the hero while crowing bottle is just annoying let alone the fact that ability spam instead of rune contesting isnt a great thing to watch. Puck spam kill creep wave, mag spam kill creepwave, wave die 2 heroes goes back crowing and nothing happen. Making the flying crow relatively easier to kill could be a great way to punish such greedy play. Plus it also gona stop EnternalEnvy crow spawn block bullshit >.> i like this idea of making the flying courier 1shot
the only downside is Furion and Wisp are god tier.... but arent they already?
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Back in hon i remember bottlecrowing making the midlane kinda stagnant as well, so S2 made it so that if the courier returned with the bottle to the fountain, it'd only get two charges instead of three. I actually thought that was pretty smart - though some might say it's too big of a nerf. Anywho, bottlecrowing basically died a bit after that, it was still used, but very very rarely.
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mid still matters a lot, but skill levels have gotten to the point where it "doesnt matter as much" as what the supports do early game. drafts are usually setup so that they have the most early game mobility with smoke ganks and creation of opportunities to get kills and space. sure, it allows mids to get back on track after not getting a rune but it lets more heroes lane mid than otherwise and honestly i'm fine with less onus placed on runes which are randomly top or bottom.
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On April 19 2013 08:53 Testuser wrote:
Back in hon i remember bottlecrowing making the midlane kinda stagnant as well, so S2 made it so that if the courier returned with the bottle to the fountain, it'd only get two charges instead of three. I actually thought that was pretty smart - though some might say it's too big of a nerf. Anywho, bottlecrowing basically died a bit after that, it was still used, but very very rarely.
they just removed it completely a couple weeks after nerfing to 2 charges
bottle doesn't even recharge when u send it into the fountain in hon now
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On April 19 2013 08:57 Dead9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2013 08:53 Testuser wrote:
Back in hon i remember bottlecrowing making the midlane kinda stagnant as well, so S2 made it so that if the courier returned with the bottle to the fountain, it'd only get two charges instead of three. I actually thought that was pretty smart - though some might say it's too big of a nerf. Anywho, bottlecrowing basically died a bit after that, it was still used, but very very rarely. they just removed it completely a couple weeks after nerfing to 2 charges bottle doesn't even recharge when u send it into the fountain in hon now
Oh, really? I must've forgotten that, haha! But well, I still think it's a valid way to nerf bottlecrowing, which I'd honestly like to see done. But thanks, my memory must be a bit shaky, haha!
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btw, kinda PSA but patch has been pushed until tomorrow. No skywrath mage tonite 
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EPT
