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On April 13 2013 14:45 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 14:26 pedrlz wrote:
Fissure with 11 seconds cooldown is totally fake (saving the post 'cause icefraud). Realistically, i could foresee teams start picking up ES soon if Fnatic win more games and see the strength of the hero to start abusing it. The fact that you could just deny an entire creep wave on dire long lane is fucked up. Giving a dual lane ES treant: ES farm neutral camp while treant last hit under tower then heal the tower back up. If there is aggressive rotation, just pop invi and run. You can pretty much get an ES with blink and mana boot before 20 mins(level 11) this way, assist golds go into wards. Same deal to Radiant mid lane too. I wonder if Valve would patch out the pathing AI once people start to abuse it. I feel like Icefrog gona change leechseed soon. If you notice, the only reason why you would level it is because of the slow. The damage is minimum while the manacost is gigantic. Healing is out of the question due to the melee radius not even counting a tiny rate and nonspamable status of the spell. If i were icefrog, i would remove leechseed and seperate the damage blocking and healing on the 3rd skill right now into 2 separate skills, turning treant into a giant healing machine with the only source of damage is right click.
i dont know why you keep going on about ES dire long lane to pull. it will maybe work once against an inexperienced team and never again
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On April 13 2013 15:14 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 15:01 pedrlz wrote:On April 13 2013 14:45 NB wrote:On April 13 2013 14:26 pedrlz wrote:
Fissure with 11 seconds cooldown is totally fake (saving the post 'cause icefraud). Realistically, i could foresee teams start picking up ES soon if Fnatic win more games and see the strength of the hero to start abusing it. The fact that you could just deny an entire creep wave on dire long lane is fucked up. Giving a dual lane ES treant: ES farm neutral camp while treant last hit under tower then heal the tower back up. If there is aggressive rotation, just pop invi and run. You can pretty much get an ES with blink and mana boot before 20 mins(level 11) this way, assist golds go into wards. Same deal to Radiant mid lane too. I wonder if Valve would patch out the pathing AI once people start to abuse it. I feel like Icefrog gona change leechseed soon. If you notice, the only reason why you would level it is because of the slow. The damage is minimum while the manacost is gigantic. Healing is out of the question due to the melee radius not even counting a tiny rate and nonspamable status of the spell. If i were icefrog, i would remove leechseed and seperate the damage blocking and healing on the 3rd skill right now into 2 separate skills, turning treant into a giant healing machine with the only source of damage is right click. Ancients take AGES to be cleaned and is so easy to ES be ganked, I don't think any team will try to abuse this again (or ES starting with 10 clarities and just denying exp for radiant's safe lane). Edit: Fissure remain 8 seconds, that's why I don't think we will see a 11s cooldown Fissure. actually ancient camp die in 1.5 creep waves(half of the 2nd wave live), unless its a dragon camp then i havent tested it yet. Given the fact that 2 creepwave clear time would be around 1-1.5 mins, you could gain as much level as a constant pulling shortlane support. The only counter is to ward block the ancient camp or smoke gank but again, its dire ancient which could be covered by ward to begin with. On this topic, i would like to apologise to all the people that has to suffered this strat while i was testing it in pub games. >.> Both teammates and enemy =)) Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 15:13 igotmyown wrote:On April 13 2013 14:23 NB wrote:
Serious tree talk: Is it worth it to skill more than 1 level into leechseed or even getting the spell at all? It's his only nuke. Also the cooldown goes down to 10 seconds for a 300 hp aoe heal. It's the spell I'm mostly likely to max early. I max it by 7 or 8. Level 1 Guise is usable for escaping, but it has 15 second duration and 8 second cd, so you need level 2 to team gank with it. You need at least 2 level in guise for the spell to be effective in mid game teamfight. Plus leveling it solve your mana issue and giving your teammates stealth ganking ability. Even if guise is bad, i think even stat could works wonderfully on treant: mana+ attackspeed + armor + HP. Meanwhile leechseed doesnt scale at all. as no one stand in that AoE to be healed. The enemy gona run away and unless your team is all melee, living armor do a much better healing job than leechseed.
In team fights, there's a good chance one of your heroes or one of their heroes is melee, and leech seed heal is very noticeable in that case. In ganks your team initiates, living armor isn't going to help kill them.
Living armor just evaporates too quickly in team fights, or multiparty ganks.
Edit: if you solo offlane with treant a fair number of games, you notice that you'll be ganked, and your living armor will help a little but not enough. But you might also notice that leech seed performs a lot better in those situations.
It takes some discipline, but your team can use leech seed to heal up while you push. Discipline as in, getting your teammates to not try to focus fire down the creep you're leeching off of. It also works nicely against roshan, especially if you rotate.
Living armor is best in low number situations, like laning, smaller ganks, and solo killers.
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wow that changelog. might be fake but i definitely saw some things id like to see in the real changelog. ive always thought making cm's aura a percentage would do so much for her
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Enchant totem with no mana cost ? Seems kinda wrong to me...
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On April 13 2013 15:17 rabidch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 14:45 NB wrote:On April 13 2013 14:26 pedrlz wrote:
Fissure with 11 seconds cooldown is totally fake (saving the post 'cause icefraud). Realistically, i could foresee teams start picking up ES soon if Fnatic win more games and see the strength of the hero to start abusing it. The fact that you could just deny an entire creep wave on dire long lane is fucked up. Giving a dual lane ES treant: ES farm neutral camp while treant last hit under tower then heal the tower back up. If there is aggressive rotation, just pop invi and run. You can pretty much get an ES with blink and mana boot before 20 mins(level 11) this way, assist golds go into wards. Same deal to Radiant mid lane too. I wonder if Valve would patch out the pathing AI once people start to abuse it. I feel like Icefrog gona change leechseed soon. If you notice, the only reason why you would level it is because of the slow. The damage is minimum while the manacost is gigantic. Healing is out of the question due to the melee radius not even counting a tiny rate and nonspamable status of the spell. If i were icefrog, i would remove leechseed and seperate the damage blocking and healing on the 3rd skill right now into 2 separate skills, turning treant into a giant healing machine with the only source of damage is right click. i dont know why you keep going on about ES dire long lane to pull. it will maybe work once against an inexperienced team and never again
There are a few pro teams who've been doing it a lot recently and they seem to be having luck with it against some pretty good players, so I think it's worth talking about.
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That changelog( real or not) looks similar to what Icefrog will do.
Massive nerfs to top-tiered carries(Lone Druid,PL,Naix) and major buff to forgotten carries(Medusa,Razor,Mirana).
And buffs to underused supports(VS,SS) and nerfs to top-tiered utility hero(Magnus,Nyx and Bat).
Similar thing happened after TI2
Major nerfs to Morphling and Naga and also major buff at back then forgotten PL/Nyx/Bat at that.
I really don't like how Icefrog does this though.
But i can understand since the metagame has been stagnant for a bit now.
He probably wants to shift the metagame.
You can tell he is watching a lot of iG/LGD.cn games.
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On April 13 2013 16:07 Cyx. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 15:17 rabidch wrote:On April 13 2013 14:45 NB wrote:On April 13 2013 14:26 pedrlz wrote:
Fissure with 11 seconds cooldown is totally fake (saving the post 'cause icefraud). Realistically, i could foresee teams start picking up ES soon if Fnatic win more games and see the strength of the hero to start abusing it. The fact that you could just deny an entire creep wave on dire long lane is fucked up. Giving a dual lane ES treant: ES farm neutral camp while treant last hit under tower then heal the tower back up. If there is aggressive rotation, just pop invi and run. You can pretty much get an ES with blink and mana boot before 20 mins(level 11) this way, assist golds go into wards. Same deal to Radiant mid lane too. I wonder if Valve would patch out the pathing AI once people start to abuse it. I feel like Icefrog gona change leechseed soon. If you notice, the only reason why you would level it is because of the slow. The damage is minimum while the manacost is gigantic. Healing is out of the question due to the melee radius not even counting a tiny rate and nonspamable status of the spell. If i were icefrog, i would remove leechseed and seperate the damage blocking and healing on the 3rd skill right now into 2 separate skills, turning treant into a giant healing machine with the only source of damage is right click. i dont know why you keep going on about ES dire long lane to pull. it will maybe work once against an inexperienced team and never again There are a few pro teams who've been doing it a lot recently and they seem to be having luck with it against some pretty good players, so I think it's worth talking about.
pro teams such as...
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28103 Posts
LGD.cn streaming. So awesome 
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You can see the changelog is fake from changes to ,say, luna. She is no longer a top pick yet she is nerfed there, the tranquil nerf got her good. Some ridic changes all around or completely nonsensical buffs.
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I think its just worth mentioning as Fnatic has been picking up ES a lot recently but not abusing it. I really wana attack the idea of dota1 where backdooring and creep blocking are bullshits and forbidden. Also by abusing this, Valve might improve their creep pathing AI so why the hell not? The option is there and i think teams are just not using it because of moral issue or lack of knowledge on such information. I mean the mid pull radiant was completely broken that dire teams had to rotate their mid solo to another lane(was it iG?) until Valve fix it, now you can perfectly replicate it with ES.
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On April 13 2013 16:07 Cyx. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 15:17 rabidch wrote:On April 13 2013 14:45 NB wrote:On April 13 2013 14:26 pedrlz wrote:
Fissure with 11 seconds cooldown is totally fake (saving the post 'cause icefraud). Realistically, i could foresee teams start picking up ES soon if Fnatic win more games and see the strength of the hero to start abusing it. The fact that you could just deny an entire creep wave on dire long lane is fucked up. Giving a dual lane ES treant: ES farm neutral camp while treant last hit under tower then heal the tower back up. If there is aggressive rotation, just pop invi and run. You can pretty much get an ES with blink and mana boot before 20 mins(level 11) this way, assist golds go into wards. Same deal to Radiant mid lane too. I wonder if Valve would patch out the pathing AI once people start to abuse it. I feel like Icefrog gona change leechseed soon. If you notice, the only reason why you would level it is because of the slow. The damage is minimum while the manacost is gigantic. Healing is out of the question due to the melee radius not even counting a tiny rate and nonspamable status of the spell. If i were icefrog, i would remove leechseed and seperate the damage blocking and healing on the 3rd skill right now into 2 separate skills, turning treant into a giant healing machine with the only source of damage is right click. i dont know why you keep going on about ES dire long lane to pull. it will maybe work once against an inexperienced team and never again There are a few pro teams who've been doing it a lot recently and they seem to be having luck with it against some pretty good players, so I think it's worth talking about.
"pro" teams.
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On April 13 2013 16:33 NB wrote:
I think its just worth mentioning as Fnatic has been picking up ES a lot recently but not abusing it. I really wana attack the idea of dota1 where backdooring and creep blocking are bullshits and forbidden. Also by abusing this, Valve might improve their creep pathing AI so why the hell not? The option is there and i think teams are just not using it because of moral issue or lack of knowledge on such information. I mean the mid pull radiant was completely broken that dire teams had to rotate their mid solo to another lane(was it iG?) until Valve fix it, now you can perfectly replicate it with ES.
Lets imagine it. You have es + 1 bot lane as dire. Now your safelane carry + 1 will get raped by any trilane top ? How is it worth it. Especially if all you need is a ward to block the ancient spawn. I wonder when team will start abusing alchemist/tinker ancient ...
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On April 13 2013 16:33 NB wrote:
I think its just worth mentioning as Fnatic has been picking up ES a lot recently but not abusing it. I really wana attack the idea of dota1 where backdooring and creep blocking are bullshits and forbidden. Also by abusing this, Valve might improve their creep pathing AI so why the hell not? The option is there and i think teams are just not using it because of moral issue or lack of knowledge on such information. I mean the mid pull radiant was completely broken that dire teams had to rotate their mid solo to another lane(was it iG?) until Valve fix it, now you can perfectly replicate it with ES.
they're not using it because its bad.
it was done once by EG vs liquid, a game i watched fully. LR thread was full of complaints about it so hard yet hardly any posters noticed that bdiz on ES wasnt actually doing much that game, even if liquid didnt know how to perfectly react against it korok still had a 15 minute AM bfury
it is nothing compared to radiant mid pulls
On April 13 2013 16:40 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 16:33 NB wrote:
I think its just worth mentioning as Fnatic has been picking up ES a lot recently but not abusing it. I really wana attack the idea of dota1 where backdooring and creep blocking are bullshits and forbidden. Also by abusing this, Valve might improve their creep pathing AI so why the hell not? The option is there and i think teams are just not using it because of moral issue or lack of knowledge on such information. I mean the mid pull radiant was completely broken that dire teams had to rotate their mid solo to another lane(was it iG?) until Valve fix it, now you can perfectly replicate it with ES. Lets imagine it. You have es + 1 bot lane as dire. Now your safelane carry + 1 will get raped by any trilane top ? How is it worth it. Especially if all you need is a ward to block the ancient spawn. I wonder when team will start abusing alchemist/tinker ancient ...
ward blocks are dewardable. the problem with this at its very core is that you have a support playing completely passive and getting levels at an inoptimal rate in an aggressive metagame. the other issue is that well... radiant can also pull their wave too.
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Apparently sylar's name is Jio Madayag and xiao8, yao, and dd are all Tyler Cook.
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Yeah, wards are dewardable, but who will buy it ? The es who gets nothing ? The support top who gets nothing either ?
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vietnamese dota strats is clearly better dota then professional dota ok you guys just arent meta enough
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ES as bad as he is in DotA 2, is made even worse against a Rubick. Stolen fissure with 0 cast point is almost as good as most ultimates rubick can steal
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United States47024 Posts
On April 13 2013 16:46 rabidch wrote:
the problem with this at its very core is that you have a support playing completely passive and getting levels at an inoptimal rate in an aggressive metagame.
This, especially when it's Earthshaker, who is one of the absolutely most game-changing supports to put levels and items on.
On April 13 2013 17:25 drew-chan wrote:
ES as bad as he is in DotA 2, is made even worse against a Rubick. Stolen fissure with 0 cast point is almost as good as most ultimates rubick can steal
That's not as big of a problem as it seems. ES was still 1st round ban/pick material in DotA 1 even in 6.74--after Rubick was already in -cm.
Everything wrong with the hero has to do with how he works in DotA 2 compared to DotA 1.
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On April 13 2013 17:58 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 16:46 rabidch wrote:
the problem with this at its very core is that you have a support playing completely passive and getting levels at an inoptimal rate in an aggressive metagame. This, especially when it's Earthshaker, who is one of the absolutely most game-changing supports to put levels and items on. Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 17:25 drew-chan wrote:
ES as bad as he is in DotA 2, is made even worse against a Rubick. Stolen fissure with 0 cast point is almost as good as most ultimates rubick can steal That's not as big of a problem as it seems. ES was still 1st round ban/pick material in DotA 1 even in 6.74--after Rubick was already in -cm. Everything wrong with the hero has to do with how he works in DotA 2 compared to DotA 1.
The biggest problem he has in dota 2 is the pathing changes, right?
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On April 13 2013 17:15 FinestHour wrote:
vietnamese dota strats is clearly better dota then professional dota ok you guys just arent meta enough
Posts like this counts as personal attack or what?
And whats up with the LGD.cn stream? Anyone mind give me a rough run down of the running text on top? I havent seen they play yet but watching an iG replay and running ads and wait screen.
edit: rabidch got great points about having a support taking level instead of doing shit. But again, even smoke gank are almost impossible to execute now a day before 6mins mark, most of the supports are used to protect their trilane and secure farm for their carries. The roaming meta is no longer work with the chinese play style, a simply mia could easily drive their solo mid back to hugging tier 2 tower and stuff like chen/enchan smoke behind tower only still work in the long lane today, but less and less.
The idea came to mind when i was watching Loda draft that orge magi game with treant around a safe lane LD: safe lane LD, mid mag/puck(CC solo mid with escape mechanism) and trilane treant+ 2 supports. I just happen to think that treant with the fissure block thing has a lot of synergy: treant could last hit under tower and heal the tower if it is pushed. He could provide healing for ES which obviously gona spam clarity if the 2nd support isnt kotl. With treant healing, the others 2 lanes can hardly lose either. Again, I am not claiming that this GONA work. Im just saying that there are room to experiment around with the pathing of DotA2. Even Liquid admitted that they lost a game to fnatic due to late game fissure blocking push, i think there are room for the hero in the current meta.
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EPT
