EPTPubs just like playing hard carries in a way that's totally useless to their team regardless of which carry it is.
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Pubs just like playing hard carries in a way that's totally useless to their team regardless of which carry it is. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
Yes sure, it's annoying...but only because we aren't exposed to it much. Furion, lycan, naga, weaver, meepo, troll, morph... are great splitpushers as well and I don't see anyone complaining over them. I rather play vs a PL than a good naga/meepo, especially meepo because he's fucking ungankeable in the hands of a good player. Now PL gets annoying if he gets BoTs up because it's harder to predict which one's the real, but having lane wards and a team that uses smoke with a gem owns splitpushers. Splitpush>5man>ganking>splitpush, no? | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On April 07 2013 20:57 Andr3 wrote: There's a lot of heroes that can splitpush effectively, but people seem to only see PL as such a hero and that's why you don't get to play vs splitpushers much. Yes sure, it's annoying...but only because we aren't exposed to it much. Furion, lycan, naga, weaver, meepo, troll, morph... are great splitpushers as well and I don't see anyone complaining over them. I rather play vs a PL than a good naga/meepo, especially meepo because he's fucking ungankeable in the hands of a good player. Now PL gets annoying if he gets BoTs up because it's harder to predict which one's the real, but having lane wards and a team that uses smoke with a gem owns splitpushers. Splitpush>5man>ganking>splitpush, no? Depends, sometimes 5 man > split push based on location of creep waves and aegis, and great smoke ganks can initiate ganks vs 5 man that end up dominating as well. | ||
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Talron
Germany7651 Posts
Obviously people who constantly lose to the same style of play / the same hero, which is the courtesy of it, complain about said style / Hero. People who are able to deal with it, have no reason to get loud or complain. Makes the whole "PL OP!!" debate appear bigger, than it actually is. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
On April 07 2013 21:36 PrinceXizor wrote: Depends, sometimes 5 man > split push based on location of creep waves and aegis, and great smoke ganks can initiate ganks vs 5 man that end up dominating as well. I don't think you can smoke "gank" 5people :3 But yeah, depending on heroes and situation of which towers are up 5man can defeat splitpush, but generally no. The only reason PL is a "problem" in pubs is because you need some teamwork/coordination to effectively deal with him. There's not many heroes that can go toe-to-toe with him, most of time you have to rely a bit on your team. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On April 07 2013 21:45 Talron wrote: Pubs often fail to deal with splitpush. A decently played Furion, Tinker, AM or PL is pretty much what rapes them the most. Often they are either too overcautious and TP back, when they could have easily gotten rax for just trading a tier2 and sometimes they don't even have TPs, fail to get the barracks and get raxed themselves. You will very rarely find teams, that are able to deal with that in "just okay-ish skill levels". In higher levels you're often facing teams, that are able to deal with those heroes / playstyles. Obviously people who constantly lose to the same style of play / the same hero, which is the courtesy of it, complain about said style / Hero. People who are able to deal with it, have no reason to get loud or complain. Makes the whole "PL OP!!" debate appear bigger, than it actually is. Yeah it's weird they fail horribly to stop split push, but are anti split push gods when a broodmother is on the field. lol | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
On April 07 2013 22:06 PrinceXizor wrote: Yeah it's weird they fail horribly to stop split push, but are anti split push gods when a broodmother is on the field. lol broodmother is not really a split pusher. webs take time to setup | ||
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Jinxed
United States6450 Posts
On April 07 2013 20:54 BurningSera wrote: What about AM, full items no fun, same split push shit, easier to use/farm and harder to gank/die due to blink. Honestly do people even remember the unkillable Morphling? BoTs out to a wave with a replicate back home, push that out as your opponent goes high ground, instantly TP back when they finally have to commit and then kill everything. Oh and remember you literally could not ever win mid against a good Morph player, meaning he always got his farm. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On April 07 2013 21:45 Talron wrote: Pubs often fail to deal with splitpush. A decently played Furion, Tinker, AM or PL is pretty much what rapes them the most. Often they are either too overcautious and TP back, when they could have easily gotten rax for just trading a tier2 and sometimes they don't even have TPs, fail to get the barracks and get raxed themselves. You will very rarely find teams, that are able to deal with that in "just okay-ish skill levels". In higher levels you're often facing teams, that are able to deal with those heroes / playstyles. Obviously people who constantly lose to the same style of play / the same hero, which is the courtesy of it, complain about said style / Hero. People who are able to deal with it, have no reason to get loud or complain. Makes the whole "PL OP!!" debate appear bigger, than it actually is. Even pro teams are horrible at dealing with split push or play it wrong. It is easily the riskiest strategy in that a mistake on either side will likely cost you the game. This leads to a lot of people finding it boring because the games get stalled out because neither side wants to commit to anything as it will be game ending. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
Don't say split push is the riskiest strategy, nor that it leads to stalled out fights. It can sure, but you can't say it does in general. If you're aware what your hero is capable of and if you execute pushing properly, it's no risk. It's kinda like drops in SC2, if MMA's doing them I never have a feeling they'll put him behind. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On April 08 2013 00:08 Andr3 wrote: That is really over-simplifying it. MUFC used to run a really fun splitpush strat involving SF/weaver usually, they just had really coherent teamwork and rarely got caught while taking down T2's and stuff. Don't say split push is the riskiest strategy, nor that it leads to stalled out fights. It can sure, but you can't say it does in general. If you're aware what your hero is capable of and if you execute pushing properly, it's no risk. It's kinda like drops in SC2, if MMA's doing them I never have a feeling they'll put him behind. and then you get caught or smoke ganked while you're split pushing and put your team into a very bad position where you either need to buyback or they can safely push finally (and typically your split push threat was the only reason they hadn't won by pushing yet). Yes you can not commit by hiding in trees while the enemy is offmap, but that is why the games get stalled out. Neither side commits to any offense and then nothing happens in the game for twenty minutes because both sides know that that committing is likely going to decide the game. Drops in sc are a terrible example as well. If a drop is picked off he only loses 10 supply. If your antimage dies while he is split pushing then he has to buyback or you're going to lose racks/roshan essentially. Either option is going to set you back much further. A doom drop would be the better example and typically these are actually all in. You might be able to TP away (load up and retreat), but you're committing a whole lot more to the offense. Basically when they're split pushing you can either commit to a push under the assumption that you can either kill their base faster or kill something and get back to defend yours before they take it. This is risky because if it doesn't work you're going to lose your racks AND not take theirs making their split push even more effective. This is going to lose you the game in most scenarios. Trading racks for racks (the even trade) in this situation typically puts you behind so you don't want to do that. You either do that or you try to pick them off. Ganking a split pusher is pretty much impossible if they know what they're doing, but you're also typically on a timer where they're farming a lot more than you at this point because they have 1 person farming out a lane and your jungle and everyone else on their team farming the other two lanes and their jungle. If you let this go on for too long your team will eventually be too far behind to commit and win a fight anyway. The farming situation might not be this dire and the end game lineups may favor your team (dual core versus AM for instance) so it may be possible to farm it out, but you're still eventually going to commit to the first option unless their team decides to fight you when they can't win. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
I guess it slightly depends on the stage of the game, but generally speaking in the midgame if you're going to be heavily focusing on split-pushing a death won't mean all that much. As you're applying pressure across the map, that's why I made the comparison to drops in SC2. You're not all-inning with split-push, you're forcing reactions out of your opponents, how you deal with them is a different story. And I would say, again generally(as these things are very situational depending on hero drafts), splitpushing will favor your team as far as ganks go - because you can anticipate counter-ganks and prepare for them. If you're running a split-pushing lineup usually you'll have heroes that can easily go 1vs1 or even 1vs2, weakness is usually the early 5man. When you're split-pushing you aren't just taking bases down, you're getting farm and ideally stealing their jungle! You're forcing decisions to be made on the enemy team, most of the time you'll always TP to help defend unless it's the endgame. I feel like that the only reason it feels like it's risky is because it's not a refined strategy yet, I've only seen MUFC do it to a great effect. It's hard to pick the appropriate heroes to cover all the teamfight/early game weaknesses you generally have with such a strategy. | ||
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
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Teton
France1656 Posts
Also how not to play furion, and how not to turtle | ||
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Witten
United States2094 Posts
And of course you're going to lose against a fed Skill Magi like that. | ||
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cecek
Czech Republic18921 Posts
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ReignSupreme.
Australia4123 Posts
Merlini keeps referring to them as "ex-root" on the tweeter. And Taku isn't listed on Root website, thought he was just away temporarily? | ||
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Teton
France1656 Posts
On April 08 2013 02:55 ReignSupreme. wrote: So have ROOT disbanded? Merlini keeps referring to them as "ex-root" on the tweeter. And Taku isn't listed on Root website, thought he was just away temporarily? Was ROOT even considered as a pro team? | ||
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PassiveAce
United States18076 Posts
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